Episode Summary
I'm gonna be an impact to somebody every time I interact with them. I will never be perfect at it, but I'm gonna try to do the best I can to be the positive influence on people. Why don't you be the one that makes a difference, a positive difference? Like, why don't you be the one that And since people come and complain to me at work or at home about stuff in a community, and I'm like, let's just talk through that. What if that person just needs you to be positive? Like, you don't even have to agree with them. What if you just be kind to them today? Like, maybe that changes the environment they're in. I'm an insurance junkie by trade and so acronyms flow all over the place and I figured out let me take one and how can I talk about that message in an organized pattern and so I just kind of came up with own yourself, nurture others and expand your influence which is the acronym that I use for this story. [Music] This message is part of kind of what I've been trying to to lead to in my life and also the way that that carries over into how I lead my teams and how that's been a development over time is kind of the the big idea. I mean it it's a function of how it carries into every single thing that you do when you get to a point where you understand I I I'm no longer being a leader for me becomes the big idea which is I'm just who I am. I happen to have been blessed with experiences and life experiences that have allowed me to uh fail miserably and to succeed very very well. And all of that mix I I would say over many of much of my years you know when I was growing was how do I how do I hide the failures? How do I get by over the failures? How do I defend against the failures? And then how do I embrace my success and get more success? And then the secret became that chasing those two different things was more stressful and challenging than just being really clear about who I was and what I wanted to be and then let that just carry over into how I lead. >> What was the catalyst to create that reframe in your brain? Cuz I think a lot of people never they never reframe it the way that you did. They get caught in this constant loop of hide my failures, overemphasize my success, and try to chase more. and and that I think we both can say and I would completely agree with you. There's no happiness in that down that path. Certainly no long-term happiness. So what was what was the catalyst for you to reframe that idea in your mind? >> I think more than anything being a father, right? and and my my fatherhood and leading at home had lots of ups and downs over the years as you grow and you know you have kids and nobody tells you how to do it and then you look around and you see people that are doing it well and it all looks like success and obviously with social media and other things that puts that in front of people you just kind of wonder sometimes you know when it when it's not what you see that everything else is defined by the world as success you start to question how are you leading at home and and so as my children grew I began to see things like I mean silly examples of like just being so caught up in how they did in school at an early age and how important that I thought that was during that time and and going through middle school and then as they reach high school and then the whole everything in middle school is about getting into the right spot for high school and how high school is all about college and there's really I've got a whole another tangent we could go on about higher education to today's environment but but how all of that pushes you to lead differently than maybe how your heart feels heart was saying when I had young children was I I want them to be healthy. I want them to be happy. I want to enjoy that time with them. And and I certainly did. But every once in a while, you would let the world creep in to say, "Well, yeah, but they need to be doing this, and they got to be doing this, and they need to be playing more of this, and they should be doing." And so, the world began to dictate how I thought about the way I wanted to define success as a father, as a as a family for my children. And as we got into the middle school years, I have three children. I've got a 24, 22-year-old, and a 19-year-old. My two boys and my daughter at the end. Um, as we got into middle school, I had especially one of my my sons who began to have some health issues that we couldn't figure out and they were impacting him significantly. And there's no playbook for that as a dad. Like that's not what you talk about with other dads. You talk about what travel team they're on. You talk about how what sports they're playing, how they're doing in school, what grades they're making. All that's the normal conversation amongst dads. There was no normal conversation when I would go out with friends in the community about, hey, my son's really struggling and we can't figure it out and I want to help him and I don't know how to help him. And so that began to reframe things for me. Um, and then there was another siminal moment um during co where I found myself as many of us did uh home. Couldn't go to the office. Wasn't allowed to go to the office. I'm a people person so that wasn't healthy for me. And I got home and I've got three great kids. I've got a beautiful bride. We've had a great marriage. We got a beautiful home. My job was going really well at the time. I was with Marsh. Things were great. Um, and so I'm at home and I'm miserable. And you look around and I'm like, I'm doing great in my career. I've got a great family. Got neighbor across the street I'm hanging out with during co we've got it. It's kind of like you got it licked. And yet I was not happy. And I began to look at it and say, you know what, I'm not in control of my situation. I'm letting the world dictate to me what is going on. And so I had my oldest son was a senior in high school and co was taking all that away from him, right? All the senior celebrations, 13 years of school to get to that senior moment, to have senior breakfast and have mom and dad come over for the breakfast and to have prom and to have dances and to have graduation live and all of those things that he had worked so hard for to watch it be stripped away from him and and realize that yeah, but but in the grand scheme of things, he he's 18 years old. He's got a lot of life ahead of him. This is a moment in time and I was letting myself look at it and say that's defining how I feel about the world and and I felt out of control and I was not myself. Had good friends and mentors in my life who said to me man you don't you don't seem like yourself. What's going on? And that helped me to step back and say I've got to take control of the situation. So that the reframing for me was twofold. One is that my priorities completely shifted. I had a I have a child who who is incredible. He's one of my heroes in my life. He has challenges that many people will never face in their life and he overcomes them on a regular basis. And so whether he did his homework or not, I I could care less. I really could care less because his health and his happiness was the primary focus. And a middle school science assignment, a middle school calculus test was pretty small in the grand scheme of things. And so I wanted to make sure that he knew that as as as a leader, as his dad, as his leader, I wanted you to focus on what mattered, and that was you being happy and healthy. And we'll worry about that other stuff later. Tests come and go. We'll figure that out. So that that was probably the beginning of the reframe of how I began to look at the world, which changed the way that I operated on a daily basis. Well, I think your self-awareness and and I I'll say humility to actually step back and look at those things is is incredibly admirable and something that I think we all should strive for cuz and it comes in moments, right? Maybe waves, right? We have waves of self-awareness and waves where we're, you know, maybe a little uh a little filtered in our view. But I I do believe in in having done, you know, this podcast for as long as I have and spent as much time with people, you know, very people person too. I think a lot of people struggle with this, right? It's a big it's I did a TEDex talk back in February on on status and the impact of status in our life. where I when I did my self-awareness journey, I could almost pinpoint decisions that I made based on the status that I thought I would accumulate from that decision versus the decisions that I made because that's what I wanted to do with my life and how it fit was literally green for when it wasn't based on status and red for when when it was almost to a tea. And um and I think this is very difficult for us because you the world is is is you know social media in particular even if you're not there still plays this role. People look at you they expect things from you. So you know if someone's out there listening to this going I find myself in a similar place to where Carl was before he kind of reframed right. What would how how does someone break down or just start to start to organize some of the mental clutter around the the ego or the status or that that living a life that they didn't choose that that may have been pre your reframe that that so many of us deal with. >> What if I told you that every no you've gotten in the last 30 days was preventable? What if every I need to think about it was actually your fault? What if every can you send me more information meant you screwed up that sales call? You'd probably get pissed, right? It certainly pissed me off when I realized this is what was happening to my own sales team. And you should be angry because anger creates action and action is what you need right now. Your conversion rate is stuck at 20 to 30% because you're using a broken script and a broken process. Meanwhile, your competitors are gaining ground. But wait, you have a secret weapon. The one call close system I'm going to teach you. My clients who I work with one-on-one are hitting 80 plus% conversion rates. Same leads, same market, different words. Now, here's the deal. I'm giving away the entire system for free. Not because I'm nice, because I know once you see the results, you'll want to work with me. So, click the link below, get the workbook, and start experiencing sales conversion rates most believe are impossible. This is the way. >> Sure. I I I I'll tell you how I did it like the way it worked for me and and I I would recommend it, but I mean for everybody they'll have their own way, but I I began to read and and chase after people who had a philosophy like mine. And so I would look at different authors and different books and I would read. I've always been a reader and I began to reshape what I was reading because guess what? I was reading seven habits of highly effective people. I was reading the the books that the world said you should read if you're a good leader. But that wasn't feeding what I needed, right? And so I went back and started looking at things like, well, I need to get myself in order. How do I what are some who are some people writing about that? Who are speakers that I've heard at different conferences who I feel like that that spoke to me. I need to go back to that. And so the the beginning step for me was I literally sat down uh with a book. It's it's by Roger Cyp. It's called Train Your Brain for Success. I've handed it out to a lot of people. Roger spoke at a convention that I was at years ago. It was a big eye convention in North Carolina. And it was a little speech and probably most people in the room I don't know if it impacted them or not but it just stuck with me and it was years later before I went back to that book and in there there's some chapters that really stuck with me. The very first one that I I grabbed grabbed hold of was about what are your values? Have you sat down and done an exercise where you come up and look through and put seven words together that are the things that are the most important to you? Have you done that exercise? And I hadn't. And so I everybody could probably tell you what they value, but I had not sat down and spent time with that. So I dedicated time to let me go through the exercise of putting a bunch of words on paper and then narrowing them down. And the neat thing about the way that exercise played out was you go through a lot of words. He has likeund and some words on a page. You go through the words, then you cross off the ones that are similar and you narrow it down to where you get to whatever it is, 5, six, seven. There's there's no magic number. For me, it was seven. And then you go and define yourself, not the dictionary. What does that word mean to you? and you write that definition out and then you start looking at what are the things that I value. And so for me it was faith, joy, influence, um, and um, a couple other great comments in there. And so I went back and defined those and that set me on a path of, okay, well, if those are the seven things that I say are non-negotiable for me, let me look at what my calendar looks like every week. So I calendared that and that was very eye opening. I wasn't feeding those things. my calendar wasn't reflective of my values. So, I began to change that. And then the other piece of the puzzle that that happened, not just from that book, although he talks about it and a lot of people do, uh, The Miracle Morning by how Elrod is another great one that I gleaned onto. Um, I realized that for me, if I just woke up every day and tried to live that out, it wasn't going to happen. The world would the world had many times successfully derailed me throughout my career, throughout my life. And so that's when I said, I've got to own myself in the mornings and then during the day. So I've sat down and worked on a routine that I was going to commit to on a daily basis of things I was going to do to put me in the best position to defend myself from when the world came at me. Um, so so to me, getting clear on those values and actually writing those down and then starting to come up with a routine that would allow me to listen, I'm not 100% successful. I'm not 100% with my routine. I fell still on a regular basis, but but my routine gave me the best chance of success every day. And and at that time too, Ryan, it was I can't take a chance because of what I'm dealing with to try to help my son get through his what he's dealing with. That that's it's one thing to let my team down at work. It's one thing to not sell another insurance policy. It's a whole another thing to to take a chance on the way my day goes when it impacts my son and my daughter and my other son. And that that became how I began to move in that direction. >> You use this term defend yourself against the world, the universe. And I think I think habit, routine, and we'll put all that in a bucket of say preparation, right? Mental, physical, daily preparation. We're not taught this, right? It's one of the reasons that I do this show is is I'm so incredibly curious as to how everything works, right? like this show would be more commercially successful if I was like the leadership guy for you know bub bop or what you know like it would be it would be but >> I just I'm so interested in in how we we just so many different things in this particular idea that >> and what's come out of that this is where I'm trying to get to from talking to so many different people everyone from the first licensed sil psilocybin clinic in the United States to you know billionaire investment bankers to content creator, you know, >> this idea of preparation is is one of the keystones of all of their success that I have found, right? And everyone prepares differently. But >> and here's here's where my question comes because I think everyone can get behind that, right? You find a routine, you do it daily, okay? >> But the world's going to punch at you. The universe is going to punch. I tell people all the time, the universe doesn't give a about you. They does not care, right? You have to you intentionally have to prepare yourself. So when it hits you hard, right? >> Mhm. >> Something happens uh you know, maybe you know, god forbid something with your kids or or work, you know, just something happens at work that just throws the whole ship into into flux. How do you not spin off the rails? How do you how do you how do you come back in? Everyone's going to have those moments, right? maybe takes a day or two to get back on track. But where I see the the difference between highly successful individuals like yourself and those who do not reach goals or do not reach places that they maybe are proud of is that when the best get punched in the face, they're able to recalibrate themselves and get back on track and so many others are not. >> Yeah, it's a great point. >> How do you do How do you do that? How do you get yourself back on track when you get knocked off course? the the the way that I frame that in my in my mindset over the last really very recently, but I think it's it's just I've been recently able to kind of describe and define how I was doing it before, right? So, so I it's it's like a I can equate it to like being in a boxing match. You're in a boxing match with the world and and if you think you're getting into a boxing match and nobody's going to throw a punch at you, well, that's just insanity that that you are going to get punches thrown at you in the world. And what I have learned as I begin to study and read a little bit about boxing, which has been fun to do. It's something I don't know a lot about. I don't really follow it. I mean, I know Tyson and Muhammad Ali and but I don't know the science of it. I started reading some books on that. Some of the most successful fighters and trainers is because they learned how to take a punch. Not necessarily avoid a punch. They don't they teach you how to dodge and move, but but nobody ever says you're not going to you're not going to avoid every punch. And so how you absorb a punch, it you actually have to think about it like you have to be prepared. It's something you train about of how to how to take a punch, how to be absorbing of something. And so what I look at now is I try to take it as an absorbing of some experience, right? And so when negative comes at me and it does and man, I get knocked down. I'm I'm in a I'm in a season now where I've got some stuff going on that it would be easy for me to just say, "This isn't right. This isn't fair. God, why are you doing this?" Like that all exists in my life right at this very moment. But but I just when you know it's coming, it's not that I live in fear of when it's going to happen, like when's the other shoe going to drop, but I just kind of accept the fact that there's going to be something coming in my life. And when it does come, I'm going to absorb that punch. Well, how do I absorb it? I I've got I've got a partner in life and my wife who we are aligned and we see the world the same way. And so I can go to her and we can share it with each other. We we don't have conversations very often that are like, "It's going to be fine. Don't worry about it." we have conversations which is yeah this sucks sorry we're dealing with this I'm sorry you're dealing with that but but this is what matters this is what we know matters let's focus on that let's stay clear to that and so whether it's at home or at work I've got great mentors and friends throughout the industry throughout work who I can also lean on to say man remind me why we're doing this and then you get that reminder and it helps you to absorb it the other thing I I think about it too is I I fully believe all that negative stuff that comes at me from the world Every time I get punched by the world, if I can absorb that and then look back at it, I I can learn from it and I'll be better the next time I take one of those punches cuz they're going to keep coming. Like, it's just not We don't get a life free of punches. It's just going to happen. But I I think framing it from a standpoint of I want to absorb the experience for what it is. Good. And I and the interesting cool thing about that, Ryan, for me is I'm very much in the moment on the good stuff too now. like I fully absorb that stuff too because in the back of my head I'm thinking, "Hey, it's not every day that it's going to be good like this. Let me let me be in this moment." My wife and I joke around, we've got we got three kiddos and throughout life all three of them have had their ups and downs. Obviously, they're they're growing adults trying to figure this world out that that even a grown adult doesn't have figured out. And we call it the trifecta when all three of them are in a good spot. Like we kind of high-five secretly. They're out of the house now. We'll have phone calls and texts with them. And if all three of them are really good, we're like, "Hey, I talked to him. He's great. She's doing good. Oh, he's good today, too. It's a trifecta. And we high five and we celebrate. Little wins. Like, they're just all three having a really good day right now. Like, so I think I think the combination of absorbing the punch, knowing it's coming, being prepared for it. Um, listen, I still get knocked down a lot. Still happens. It still sucks. But I got a couple people around me that are not going to allow me to lay on the mat and complain about getting punched in the face. I >> think one I I I love that. Um, you know, a reframe that I use all the time is this isn't happening to me, it's happening for me, right? So, so when things happen that I didn't expect or aren't exactly what I want, right? It's often it's easy to go, why is this happening to me? You know, I'm a good person. I pay my taxes. I, you know, love my Why is this happening to what did I? And it's like, no, it's happening for you. like this this thing that you didn't like, right? >> How about you go put your adult pants on and go solve the problem, right? Like go figure it out, learn from it, right? It's happening regardless. You can either wallow in it or like go figure it out. And that >> that mentality that I'd say the second half of my of my um more mature side of my career, not the super early days, has really has really >> has really helped me get through those like that absorbing of the punch, right? And I think these kind of reframes as much as we can um build them into our life really help. They're you know yeah they're aferisms or whatever they're just little diddies but man they can they can be really powerful and I often caution people to uh some people can think they're trit or like ah you know I don't need that in my life and it's like it's like dude you just got punched in the face like if a simple reframe can help you think about it differently like isn't it worth doing it? So I I I love love that stuff. So, and I think too, Ryan, I think too for for a lot of folks, >> there's there's some people that don't have that happen a lot or they already naturally handle it well. And and for me, it's not I'm like, good for you. Like, that's awesome if you don't need it. I I hope I hope you live a life where you don't have to worry about what I've got to worry about. Like, I would love for you to have for that to be your life experience, but the large majority of us know that that's not the way it works. >> So, where did um Okay, so for the audience, so they know, I was at Mick Hunt's Lead Loud Series down in Greenville, South Carolina. tremendous event. Um, highly recommend you go check out his lead loud series. He has them I think quarterly or so. Um, wonderful events. And you were uh one of the speakers and uh I was really captured by this idea of of being the one your your your leadership philosophy that extend extend and you used examples extending outside of just business into into how you lead your family etc. But I I love this concept because again speaking to the reframes and stuff, it's a simple, understandable concept, but incredibly powerful. So I'd love for maybe we talk through the the genesis of of where this idea started to come and then and and start to break down for us what this philosophy is that that you're out there teaching because I do think it's incredibly powerful. >> Well, I I thank you for that, Ryan, and and I I second that with Mix Group and that lead loud is it's an amazing time together with a lot of leaders really chasing the same things. the the thing I like most about it is it's it's chasing the personal side of it to be professionally better and that's most of what you hear at the conference. And so um I I came up with an idea probably four or five years ago um about h how do I get the message out about what I and my family went through in helping my son um to be to be successful, be happy, and be healthy even though he's facing health situations that are out of his control. Um, and so what it really came to me, there were a number of people along that journey who at moments in time at the exact right time when needed were the one person that showed up in that moment. And as I look back on our journey through there, it was there's always been this moment where a person showed up. And because that one person took interest to make a difference and have an impact, it significantly changed the path that we would have been on. And so, so as that began to happen and as I look back at that journey, I started to think about there's so many people out there. So, for example, teachers don't know how to deal with this and they listen, they haven't been trained properly. There's a whole thing to this. I'm not I'm not saying that all and I've got a long line of educators in my family and I teach as well. So, it's it's nothing about that. It's just that when you're when you're dealing with something like he was dealing with that's not evident. And the other thing is played all played sports, great football player, student body president, great student, smart kid, super smart kid. So from the outside, everybody loved being around him. So from the outside to a teacher to people around him, they had no idea the struggle that he was having. And so when we finally talked to some people and they realized it, you had a couple different reactions to this. And I think this happens and this happens professionally too by the way. But in in this situation, this was the genesis is that there were the group that would think, well, I don't know if I believe all this. You know, maybe maybe this is just some manipulation. Maybe this is just a kid trying to get over. Maybe whatever whatever. Then you had a couple people that took an interest enough to say, well, maybe not. Like maybe this is a real struggle and how can I help? And and on both sides of those coins, I began to make the argument with everybody that listen, at the end of the day, let's say you're right. Let's just say you're right. Let's say that the manipulated that you think they're trying to get over on you with whatever their situation is, right? Let's say you're right. Let's go to the what is the worst possible case scenario that could happen to that if if they're actually getting over with you. Well, that doesn't happen forever. And maybe they get a grade they don't deserve and maybe they move on and but at some point life catches up with us when we do those things. But but what if what if this struggle is real and you're the one who did not help them and it was enough to go to the other side of the equation which which let's be honest like you never know where that's going to go with someone and you could have been the one that did that too and and I just got to a point where I said I I've seen people impact him and us positively and negatively by being the one person that made a difference and took an interest and I want to make sure that all the interactions that I have I'm fortunate enough in my professional life to interact with tons of people. And man, what if somebody just needed me to be positive and smile at them that day? Maybe that was the one thing that I was the one interaction in their day that changed the path for them that day that maybe led them to a different place. But but what if also if I'm real with myself, what if I'm the one that was negative to them? What if I'm the one that had a negative interaction? What if I'm the one who fed into what might be selft talk for a person to say, I don't even know why I'm here. Nobody cares about me. What's the deal? I I don't have any hope. Why am I here? And then you interact with Carl at the airport and he's frustrated already because he's missed a couple flights and we have this interaction and I don't even know you, but we have a bad interaction and I'm really negative to you. And then off you go because I've just confirmed the selft talk you already had that it's it there's no reason to be doing this anymore. Everybody's out to get me. and and that just became a real moment for me to say, I I don't want to be I'm going to be an impact to somebody every be perfect at it, but I'm going to try to do the best I can to be the positive influence on people. And and so that kind of started me down this path of be the one. Um and I so that's the message that I talked to people about when I was already having interaction. Like the message is just getting out. But as I talked to people, I was saying, "Why don't you be the one that makes a difference though, a positive difference?" Like, "Why don't you be the one that And since people would come and complain to me, even at work or at home like, let's just talk through that. What if that person just needs you to be positive? Like, you don't have to agree with them. What if you just be kind to them today?" Like, maybe that changes the environment they're in. So, so that that started it. I I put, you know, I'm I'm an I'm an insurance kind of junkie by trade and so acronyms flow all over the place and I I figured out, let me take one and how can I talk about that message in an organized pattern and so I just kind of came up with own yourself, nurture others and expand your influence, which is the acronym that I use for this story. And I think it's tremendous and I think the message is timely because of where we are in our society today. Um we have lost the ability to uh disagree with each other in a way that doesn't lead or spin out of control. Um people develop preconceived notions on fragmented information and will interact with you in ways that you don't understand. Um it's a very odd time uh to be a communicator and a leader. Odd is not the right word. uh challenging um tumultuous but >> I think this idea of constant positivity or reasonable and intentional positivity is absolutely what we need and and the and the audience at Lead Loud resonated. It certainly resonated with me. It's why I was so excited to have you on the show is because I you know I'll I just gave you an example. Um, I coach my kids baseball and um, what I found, you know, one of the parents came up to me and she was like, you know, my son like really likes playing for you. She's like, what are you doing? I was like, >> nothing. I I don't know. I mean, I know the game. I love the game, don't get me wrong, but she's like, well, no. She's like, you know, he's played for other coaches that were, you know, whatever. Not yelling. I'm not a big yeller or whatever. Um, and he's like, "But he really," he's like, and I was like, "High fives?" And she's like, "What do you mean?" I'm like, "Kids, high fives." Because it makes them feel connected. It makes them feel seen. It's fun. It's energizing. Now, do adults want you high-fiving them as you walk through the office? Probably not. Maybe not. Maybe they do. But >> I'm not against it. I look a good fist pump or whatever. But like, >> I was like, for this audience, kids, if you just constantly high-five them. They're in a good mood. Even if they even if they mess up, you just give them a little dap. Dude, you got this. You're good. Bam. You're the man. No one better. You know, throw some little thing on it with a high five. >> They could go 0 for three that day and they walk away with a smile. And I think and and in the context of little league, everyone that makes complete sense. Oh, yep. No, that makes complete sense. Then we get into our adult world and we're >> Johnny's not holding up his end of the bargain. Sally hasn't sold anything. the HR team's up my butt about some email I sent where I didn't mean what I you know blah blah blah blah and now all of a sudden it's pure negativity and I guess when when when you talk to someone who's dealing with these adult toxic environments what is like is the first step just be the one is it go get consensus like if you're in one of these toxic environments maybe you enjoy the company in general but it's got this kind of negative or toxic and you want to change it. How do you start injecting this idea into this idea of being the one which I love into an organization so that you know you can start to break that negativity spiral down? >> Yeah. I think um so early on it's it's if you have the opportunity to be really careful about who you join. I think the team that you join you have to be careful about it. And so I talk to a lot of undergrads, talk to young professionals, and I remind them to just this is the time to not compromise. Finding a team of people that that is aligned with the way that you see the world and the way you want to live your life and the way you want to be professionally. Again, just to reiterate, the main thing they're usually missing is they haven't even spent time thinking about that. So, I got to get them to go back and do that first. So, but but let's move forward. They've joined a team and and obviously sometimes you do do the best you can. you still end up in a team where the environment is is not what you expected it to be. It turns toxic over time. You have new leadership or new teammates, whatever the situation is. But when you find yourself in that space, I I think you have to do a couple things. Number one is I want to make sure I don't want people to think that I'm all rainbows and unicorns. Like I do not think that this is easy. I'm not good at it all the time. It's the desire of my heart. It's not the way that I execute on a daily basis, but it sure is what I want to do on a daily basis. And so what I would encourage people in those situations is be really clear on who you are because if you're compromising the core value of who you are in a toxic situation there there's no fixing that. It's probably not getting better if you can align your core values and you can have honest conversations with people. Start trying to find people among in in in in that team who you believe are aligned with you and begin to have real vulnerable transparent conversations about what you're feeling and where you're at and how it's going because that's reality for a team and good leaders should be receptive to the teammates coming to them and saying I don't know what's going on but this is how it is making me feel. It may just be my perception is incorrect and I may be my feeling I may need to adjust this a little but I think it's important that you and I have a conversation about how this is impacting the way that I operate daily. Um and and then you've just got to kind of find a way to talk through how do I move to a place that I want the team to be. Now the other piece of that that that I challenge people with you you have an obligation though to be the teammate that you want to be that you want everybody else to be too. It's very easy for all of us to point to the people around us who are causing the problem without taking a step back real quick to say, "Yeah, but was I really intentional about showing up today?" Like, did I really do my work today? Did I really show up correctly? Because if the answer is no to that, you you can't you got to get that square before you go take care of what's happening with the rest of the team. Um, so I think that's where I mean it's difficult when you find yourself. And listen, there's a lot of people who listen, I I've been very fortunate in my career, very fortunate with people and connections and things. And there's people though that are in places where they're stuck, that don't have a choice that the the choice to leave is it'd be easy for me to answer that question and say, "Well, you shouldn't be on that team. You should find another team and you should go enjoy that other team." And but the reality is for many of us, that's just not reality that you can just jump around and be shopping around for some team that makes you feel better. That's just not the world we live in. But I also think you have this incredible opportunity if you can take it on as a challenge and as a project, your own project. If you can absorb the negativity for what it is and then brush it off a little bit and then dig in a little bit, man, if you're the one that changed the culture of that toxic team, what an incredible spot you'll find yourself in, right? >> Have you ever read the book No More Mr. Nice Guy? >> I have not. >> I highly, highly recommend it. like it's one of my number one recommendations for for pretty much any any anyone really, but particularly men in leadership positions. >> And what he defines in that book is the difference between nice and good. >> And this opened my eyes. I read this about a year and a half into uh Rogue Risk when I was developing Rogue Risk and the team was really starting to grow and I had I was you know you're bringing people in and you're bringing in teammates that fit in immediately and you're bringing in teammates that have some friction here or maybe you know different personalities and and I'm looking at this and I was struggling to pull it all together and I didn't understand why my message of like wasn't resonating as much as I wanted it to. Um because I've always prided myself on on being someone who could inspire humans, uh captain of every team and all this kind of stuff, whatever. And when I read that book, what I realized is I was overindexing on nice, right? It was nice. I wasn't I didn't have the hard conversation because I wanted to be nice. I didn't bring two people together and help them talk because I didn't want to create conf because I was nice. Everything was nice. Nice. and what he outlines in this book and it's very s it's not a long read. You could you could get through it in a in a couple days. It's it's it's really the perfect type of business book because you could you it doesn't take you a year to read it. Um it's not like I'm reading um The Art of Seduction by uh by Robert Green right now and it's like it's like a college textbook. It's like this big, you know, 12 font. I mean it's amazing. thing. I mean, it's >> So, let me let me let me just give you a little quick side story on this same topic, which is weird, but it's legitimate because it's real for me. We were taking a group to London last year, uh, group of producers. It was a fun contest reward trip. I wanted to learn a little bit more about Winston Churchill. So, I ordered a Winston Churchill book, a biography. The book came in and it was 1,700 pages and it was this thick and and I was like, I wasn't expecting that. So, I sent it back, exchanged it for another book. The next one came in, it was 1400 pages, and it was still this thick. And my wife was like, did you read the description? And I'm like, yeah, I don't know if I I'm not sure I can get through that kind of thing. So yeah, good readable book. Yeah, >> I'm I'm with you. I when it's over a certain number, I got to go to audio book. I just can't I won't get through it. But so this idea of good versus nice and what I realize it kind of comes back it almost is um a more tactical version of of what Jordan Peterson talks about with be a monster, right? have the capability to stand up for yourself, to step into tough situations, but keep that sword sheathed as much and as often as you possibly can in the world. And what it forced me to do was say the nice thing, the nice thing is to not address this point of negativity because I don't want to cause more problems. That's the nice thing. But the good thing for my team and for everyone is to let's address these problems. Let's h what is going on? cuz cuz a lot of times I found and I'm very interested in your take uh with all the teams that you've led um is that when you do that the the negativity spreads right it's contagious but so is positivity. So often times someone who presents themselves as negative on a day-to-day basis, when you can show them that you accept them or accept whatever their issue is or you're willing to address their issue and and you keep that positive environment, you can flip people back. People would rather be positive. I think most people would rather operate from a place of positivity. They just don't know how to. and and you you can it is not a lost cause if you find yourself in one of these negative environments where if as you said you live that that value structure that you say you want and you actually present it people will come along for that ride. Have you have you found that to be true? >> I have and I would say um so so number one I I'm an overindex to nice guy for sure. Um I I I think the place that I have developed into from maturing in my professional career also led by my personal life um is is to be willing to have a very challenging conversation with someone because I'm coming at it from the standpoint of if we don't talk about it that's bad for everybody and and I care too much about you to not have that conversation. So that's number one. Um the the other thing that is uh interesting. I also agree like our brains are wired to be defensive and that brings on some interesting personality traits in the way that we interact with each other that are just kind of by design. But I do believe that there's not people that get up every day that would otherwise be wired to just be miserable and make your life miserable. And so then you begin to think about well if I believe that to be true then I would like to seek understanding as to why they're there. Like to me it becomes compassion for there's been something in the the life experiences that they've absorbed have put them into a place where that's the how they see the world when they get up in the morning and that's sad like I'm I'm desperately sad for those people because that's not a way to live a life and so as leading a team I want to understand why we're there. I want to understand what the experience in your life has been that that's put you in that space where you can't enjoy the moments in life that are really important. um and then try to help you find a way to get there and enable you to do that. Look, the reality is if I've got a team of people who who can't figure that out, we're not going to be successful together. We'll have small successes and we'll be able to get lucky wins, long-term sustainable success for a team. When we've got people dealing with that, I I don't believe and I don't think history has proven it out either, that you'll have long-term sustainable success if you don't help the team be great. I had a I had a great mentor who who years ago said to me, "If if you're not good at home before you get to work, it how do you you're not going to cut that off. It's not going to turn a switch when you get here." Like, so so I think it's I think it's an opportunity for us to really step back and say if I if I believe and I do, but if if I believe that people are generally wired to do good things and be good people, if they're not, something's going on. And there is no greater joy in in my life to date or in in other leaders. And I think there's no greater joy than to take that really negative person in my life and turn them into something. Turn them into a fan. Turn them into the person that smiles when they see me. And I joke around with people. Listen, if you're if you're rude and ugly to me, I I'm I'm going to probably be okay with it. It might not feel great. I'll get over it. But I also have just accepted that as the challenge to for you. You and I have a disconnect. Cuz if you really knew me, I don't think you'd treat me that way. So let's figure out how we can figure that out first. Yeah, I I I completely agree. And when you see that light bulb come on for someone, oh, there's nothing more rewarding because all of a sudden you can take you can take, you know, >> I don't love these terms A, B, C player type of thing that you hear. I I understand why we use them because, you know, but I I don't love that because I think oftent times we categorize people as if they're static, right? He's a C player. she's a a player. He and it's more like in this moment, in this season of their life andor our business, this is where they fall. But it doesn't mean they're static, right? And what we ultimately want to do is look at our B's and our C's in the current moment and say, how can I help them elevate to their best level? Cuz because I also think and and I'm I'm really interested in your take on this because again, I don't love this terminology. I understand why we use it, but I I don't love it cuz and my point is like, okay, I want >> everyone on my team at their A, >> not our A, right? They they obviously have to hit certain business metrics. They have to do their job. they have to perform and and we all have KPIs and what we need to do, but >> if I can just have everyone at their version of A, whatever that is, or as close to their version of of A as often as possible, that to me is how you hit true escape velocity in a business and you launch out into the atmosphere because you're not gonna have everyone at a quote unquote a level way up here all the time because that might not you know, Johnny's A one, he might be doing a different function, and two, his version of A might be, yeah, he doesn't, you know, he only kind of sells at the minimum requirement each month, but man, he also does X and Y and Z. And while those don't count in terms of the cash register, man, they really help our business in this way or that way. And it's getting these people up to a and simply everything that you've talked about so far. It it's about raising those people up and um and you know I think that should be our goal as leaders is not to have this team where all our A's are exactly the same but how many of the people in your organization are operating at their version of an A at that moment. And I just again I I the way my brain works. I have severely hyperactive ADHD at all given times. There's like 10,000 things going. I don't want to tell you the other thoughts that are running through my brain while we're having this conversation. And I mean that with no disrespect. Um but you know, I've had to come up with these reframes and and some of these things, you know, like just you Johnny doesn't have to be the same A as Sally. Sally's version of A is this killer. She's putting max revenue on. That's awesome. He's hitting his A though. And that seems good. That's good enough. That's awesome. He shows up happy. He's communicating. He comes to the parties. He supports people. And yeah, he doesn't sell as much as her, but he sells enough and he's super happy. So, let's freaking go. Like, why are we going to knock him? Because Sally's just an absolute sales monster, right? I mean, there are different but he's operating at his A and I think it's just a better way of viewing it. >> Well, I love I love the reframing of that a little bit, too, right? Because because if I want you to operate at your best, I need to help you understand what that looks like, right? Like not everybody kind of has a view of that. And if we're not careful, again, the outside influence of the world and the environment and the business that you're in will dictate to someone what they should be chasing as their A level. And what I would rather see us do is help them help them understand what is my A level that I'm wanting to achieve in life. and let's help you get there and let's have a real conversation about it instead of chasing somebody else's desire for what you should be in life, >> you know, and and I think, you know, I know people who don't play sports hate when people on podcast talk about sports, but I'm going to talk just for a second. Um, you know, coming up, I I played football, basketball, baseball. Football was my number one sport until I got I got three concussions my senior season, and I ultimately ended up having to play baseball in college. I say have to, like that was a bad thing. I loved it, but uh and probably better for my physical health long term. However, I think about a football team in this way. If if you're taking this idea of everyone at their A, right? Uh uh uh a middle linebacker or a quarterback has a very defined A and what they can do and they're often highlighted in the respective sides of the field as like the prime time players on those sides of the field. However, don't you also want your long snapper to be an A long snapper? Because if that guy throws the ball 10 feet over the punter's head, you're in a really bad position. So, you don't need your long snapper to be an A middle linebacker or an A quarterback. You just need to get them to being an A long snapper. And I think if