How to Become an Empathetic Leader (when you're not empathetic)

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Hello everyone, and welcome back to the show. Today, we have a tremendous episode for you, a conversation with Dr. Judith Orloff. She's the author of four books, the most recent, The Genius of Empathy, where we talk about and dig into the psychology behind how ambitious, hard-charging, high achievers, those type A driven individuals can build more empathy into their leadership style, into their work style, to get the most out of their team, their colleagues, their peers, et cetera. Tremendous conversation, especially for those of you who struggle with empathy.

Before we get there, I want to introduce you to two new resources. First, I announced a new book project that I am co-authoring with Chris Paradiso called The Civilized Savage: From Mediocrity to Mastery in a Age of Cultural Conformity. This is gonna be a tremendous, tremendous book. Go to civilizedsavagebook.com. Also have a link in the description below.

You can sign up. You get a free PDF that we put together with a bunch of quotes and individuals breaking down why we believe these specific individuals, individuals embody the civilized savage mentality, as well as the quote that we grabbed from them that we think puts a keystone on top of that idea. I also launched a brand-new e-book called Seven Ways to Make Better Decisions Using AI. This is particularly for leaders, managers, entrepreneurs, people who want to use AI, not just to push out fancy marketing language and write better emails, but to make better decisions. This is a meaty book.

I think it's got, like, 40 pages. There's tons of resources in it. There's how-tos, there's checklists. Guys, I spent a lot of time putting this together. To me, we need to get out in front of AI as quickly as possible, and if you go to ai.ryanhanley.com, you'll be able to download that for free.

Get it. Uh, it's available to you. Uh, also we'll have the link in the description below for that resource as well. With all that said, it's time to get on to Dr. Judith Orloff.

Let's go. Yeah. Make it look, make it look, make it look easy. Hey, stand up guy, he on ten toes. Big body, pull up in a Range Rover.

I could chase the whole game by myself. All right, so it's, it's awesome to have you on the show. I been, been waiting a few weeks to chat with you. Excited for it and glad you're here. Thank you.

Me too. Yeah. So let's, let's get right into a question that you actually brought up before we went live. Is empathy a soft skill? Like, where does that fall, and how, how do you frame it as someone who's an expert on this topic?

Uh, I think in the past, empathy has been thought of as a soft skill, and I'm presenting it in The Genius of Empathy as the missing skill that can turn your business interactions around, can increase success, can increase connection to other people, and increase success overall. And so it's, uh, something if you, if you feel that it's a soft skill, I'd invite you to, um, shift your thinking, to grow larger, and to see how it can help you in every aspect of your life, not just business. It can help you in your relationships. Just imagine a relationship without empathy. I mean, that's, you know...

It's brutal to think about it. Um, and to really think about it as a, as a business skill that could promote everything you dream about, you know, and, and get you to exactly where you want to be in the most surprising ways. Awesome. So I think o- maybe, maybe of another place early on here in our conversation is it's good to just take a step back and maybe what exactly is empathy? Like, is it just feelings?

Is it caring about people? Like, I would, I would reckon that a lot of people listening might think they know what empathy is, but I would... I'm super interested in your take, your definition, and, and how you frame it. Empathy is putting yourself in someone else's shoes, and it's also about self-empathy, about how can you have empathy for yourself, which is a missing skill in our society, as people beat themselves up all the time, constantly. Um, and also how to attune with people, um, and how to really resonate with people and get on their wavelength so that you could connect to them and succeed in whatever your, your interaction is with that person.

You can get a sense of where they're coming from. And basically, what people want is they want to be seen, they want to be heard, they want to be valued. And if you could communicate that to them, you are so much ahead of everybody else, because usually people are a bit combative and, and, um, you know, they play games and nasty. And, um, empathy, even if you don't like someone... In the book, I want to make this point, I feel that you could have empathy even if you don't like someone, and that it's essential that you do, especially in business, if you're in business.

Because if you let your own opinions about someone, which are neither here nor there, you know, are opinions, it could stop you from achieving great things. Um, but if you don't like somebody and you're listening to them, what you can say that it is empathic is, "I hear you. Thank you for sharing this, and I'm gonna take it under consideration." You know, as opposed to just giving off these vibes of that I hate this person, this, I don't believe in what they're talking about. You know, all kinds of...

You know, which you may not believe in what they're talking about, but you don't have to. Yeah. And what I'm talking about is, is changing the paradigm of how you, uh, conduct business. You know, instead of using your personal opinions about somebody a- as a guide to how you treat them, to treat them in a bit of a different way, with respect even if you don't like them. It's...

You know, in the book I call it the namaste effect, which is I respect the spirit within you even though I might not like you, even though I might not see you again on the path, I respect the spirit within you. It's a, you know, in India a, a lot of people greet each other with that, namaste, and that means, "I respect the spirit within you," not that I have to like you. So it, it's different, and it, it just depends on whether you wanna take your relationships to the next level. If you wanna continue doing what you're doing, if... You know, I, I, I'm not sure if anyone on this podcast would do this, but if you're aggressive and combative and, and, uh, manipulative, and that's all you are, then you're perpetuating an old paradigm of business, you know, which is pretty negative.

You know, hopefully we can evolve a little bit more where you could be strong and, and aggressive, and also kind, you know? And be so confident in yourself that you could be kind as you're saying no, or setting limits, or making a big deal. You know, it's just another element to bring in to your business interactions that will surprise people, 'cause they're not really expecting that. However, there's a section in the book on empathic leadership and, you know, who are the empathic leaders, and who are our role models, and how do they do it, you know, and still be hugely successful. You know, that's...

Y- you don't have to do the old paradigm of, you know, Wall Street, um, to be hugely successful. It sounds to me like a lack, the lack of empathy that we have is maybe part of the polarization that we see in our society today. You know, take even out politics, it feels like on every issue, from sporting events to parenting to basically everything, people have bifurcated along these lines in which you, you pick a side, and y- you agree with everything that side says on that particular topic, and you view everyone who takes the other side as, you know, wrong or bad or evil. And, uh, you know, does that, is that playing into the, the polarization that we see today? If that's all there is, yeah, 'cause that's what you're gonna get.

You're gonna get a whole world like that, and that's a pretty miserable world. So my... The reason I wrote The Genius of Empathy is to present another way, to present an additional resource that people can use, even though it may seem counterintuitive at some points, you know, to really show people empathy and respect and kindness regardless of your personal opinion. 'Cause if you start fueling the polarization, it will grow like a virus, and it will grow everywhere, because it taps into the lowest part of, of ourselves as human beings. And we all have a dark side, we do, but we wanna be aware of that dark side and not feed it. And the polarization and making it about us versus them, and this is the enemy, and this is the friend, and this person isn't like me so I don't like them and I can't have empathy for them, that gets us nowhere.

And if we look at history, you know, you could see it's a millennium full of war and pain. You know, it's very rare that we go through periods of peace and, or tranquil. But what I'm presenting is perhaps another element you can add in your business practice or in your personal relationships that will up-level them, that will improve them, that will make you feel better about yourself, and will make other people love and respect you. And I think that's what we want, you know, that that feels good, and that we come from our hearts, not just our heads. We come from our heads and our heart.

So I'm not suggesting we don't come from our heads and use all the brilliant analysis in our mind. I'm a psychiatrist who uses empathy and intuition in my practice, so this is something I've integrated with my conventional medicine. And so this is what I'm suggesting that you do with your business practices or whatever field you're in to integrate the best of all your training. Um, and try and come from a higher place, because you'll become more successful, you'll become happier with yourself, other people will be happier with you, and, um, you'll see how you could, you know, find incredible success without having to, you know, do the old school Wall Street form of manipulation and, and killing the enemy, you know, or killing the competition. Um, you could be successful financially and do it a different way.

Is it possible to be empathetic if you don't love yourself, if you, you have self-doubt, if you lack confidence? I- is it possible to put yourself in someone else's emotional shoes if you're coming from such a place of, uh, personal emotional weakness? I think so. I, I think the more we can love ourselves... And, and by that, I mean just say nice things to yourself in your own head.

You know, uh, you know what goes on in your head, and I as a psychiatrist know what goes on in other people's heads, in my own head. It's human to have all these negative voices all the time, and you could try and hide them and put a, a front up but, you know, you have to deal with them and s- be kinder to yourself. So the more- You have that kindness and give yourself a break. Let's say you make a mistake, let's say something didn't go well, you know, that's life. You know?

Sometimes things go well, sometimes they don't. You know, that is life, but for you to show yourself some respect and, and honor yourself. So the more you can do that, the more empathy you can have for other people. But, you know, I've seen people who really don't like themselves very much be amazing with other people . You know, I, I've talked to therapists, uh, friends over the years how much easier it is to have empathy for our patients than ourselves.

So the self-empathy part of the book, which is a full chapter, is, uh, something you need to develop and commit to, and it feels really good, you know, when you, you're able to treat yourself with kindness rather than waking up at 3:00 in the morning and beating yourself up, and trying to solve problems that are not solvable on the level of the mind, and just torturing yourself and staying up at night. You know, and maybe turning to drugs and alcohol. You know, it can, it can lead to all kinds of things, but you wanna be happy with yourself at the end of the day. You know, at the end of the day, you wanna be happy with yourself, and you have to decide what will make you happy. And I'm telling you, I've worked with a lot of people, you know, who are passing over, and the last thing they say, that they wish they had more money.

That's the last thing they say. Or that, or that I wished I would've worked longer hours. You know, they say, "You know, I, I wanna be around people who love me. You know, I wanna just spend time out in nature. I wanna do something nice for myself.

You know, I didn't spend enough time being nice to myself or doing things that I love." So, you know, keep that in perspective. I like that, you know, one day to live kind of attitude. You know, if this was your last day to live, how would you live it? Would you be cutthroat?

Would you be, you know, after your competitor and wanting to build up your bank account? Or what would you wanna do? Would you wanna be nicer to yourself? Would you wanna take a rest? Would you wanna go by the ocean and just look at the beautiful waves?

What would you wanna do? Would you be with loved ones? You know, so you have to ask yourself that because our life passes by pretty quickly, day at a time, but you wanna be happy with yourself, and I don't think you're gonna end up being that happy with yourself unless you can include empathy and more self-love and more growth in that area in a kind way. Yeah. How do you exude strength as a leader or is...

And that doesn't have to be a leader of a business, it could be of a community organization, a nonprofit, et cetera. H- how do you exude strength as a leader while also embodying and displaying empathy? Right. Well, I wanna make clear that empathy is not about being a doormat. It has nothing to do with that.

It has to do with being excellent at setting boundaries, at saying no, at having clear lines about what you want and what you don't want, and sticking to them, you know? And you can do that, um, and still have empathy. So they're not, it's not either/or. Uh, you could be as tough inside and as strong inside a- as you want to be in terms of your, um, what your goals are, um, and you could say no to people. You know, I...

Sometimes people mistake me, you know, for being s- you know, too soft or whatever, and I am fierce about setting boundaries and, you know, not being a doormat and not letting people walk all over me or not giving my time, you know, to people who are not reciprocating, you know, or, um, letting... I'm not... I really don't believe in, in my energy being drained by over-giving and feeling miserable for the whole world all the time. I'm, I don't do any of those things. And you see, I could do it.

You know, all those are resolutions I've made, 'cause I wanna be, you know, full of energy and fulfill, keep fulfilling my dreams. I don't wanna be exhausted, you know, from absorbing everybody else's energy and trying to help everybody all the time. You can't help everybody all the time. Though I would want to, I can't. So that's a way of really knowing yourself and being strong, and yet also you still have that kindness when you look at people, and I say no to you, "No, I'm sorry, I can't do that business deal with you," I could do it in a nice way.

I don't have to do it in a miserable way, and that's a, a form of strength. I know some of the people that I've worked with, um, in my executive coaching role or as advisor, I s- I do a lot of, uh, advising for startups, I've been an entrepreneur myself. A common thread, n- never necessarily articulated exactly this way, so I'm, I'm kind of piecing together a bunch of different comments or concerns into, into one statement. But it's essentially if I give my people too much rope, they either take advantage of me or they start to play like a victimhood card, and therefore I'd rather be feared and respected than loved. And, you know, th- this kinda comes back in my mind- Mm-hmm ... in, in, in turning this around is, is comes back to this idea of empathy and maybe purposefully not being empathetic because of a fear of either being taken advantage of or having someone throw it back in our face, particularly with the younger generation that we have today who, who likes, you know, who likes to play the victimhood card.

Like, h- how do you navigate that? How do you make sure that... You, 'cause it... Most of them are very kind people. They want to be...

They'd rather be nice to their team, but they're so concerned that- I, you know, if I'm, if someone tells me they need to work at home on a Friday because of family issues that they're still, they're not gonna, you know, they're just gonna take advantage of me and, and not get anything done or whatever. Uh, how, how do we, how do we navigate this? How do we make sure that, uh, being empathetic and, and, and treating people well and caring about them and, and trying to, to, to walk in their shoes, um, and doing the right thing, how do we make sure we don't get run over or taken advantage of? Well, you have to, you know, test it out. You know, if that person needs to work at home, you need to assess what kind of work production they had when they, you know, were at home, and if they didn't adequately work at home, you need to talk to them about it, that that doesn't seem to be working for, for us, you know, because you're not as productive.

Um, sometimes I understand you need to work at home, but you need to be productive as well. So y- you just talk to them that way, you know, like a human, you know, and you're just direct with them. You know, you're direct and you're not afraid of them. And, you know, if they start getting into the victim role, I think it's important in terms of the milieu of business is to realize the victim role gets you nowhere. That if you get into the victim role, you will be so much less successful, and you give up all your power when you're in the victim role.

So that needs to be addressed, hopefully in a, in a work environment that, you know, where you can openly talk about those things, you know, and in your team because if the team turns into a victim team, you're not gonna be very successful. Now, the victimhood is the worst thing you could do in every situation. You know, it just doesn't work, you know, and you don't wanna indulge that, so you wanna have some way of kindly stepping in and saying, "Hey, I'm seeing this pattern in the team. Let's talk about it," if you have that, uh, you know, that open-ended environment, and I know some tech companies have that. I've, I've, you know, been...

I've spoken at Google a number of times, you know, about these issues, and they brought me in and, you know, I had to d- various workshops with them and, and, uh, empathy trainings with them because people are interested in the how do you do that, you know, how would that work, like what you're saying. And so I think we need a lot of education, but hopefully, you know, if you're listening to this or if you're in higher management, you, you must realize the basic fact that if you're in victim mode you won't be successful. Yeah. That will not work. I know.

That's a no-no. Yeah. I, and I think there's a lot of commiserating, so I'm 43, so say late 30s, early 40s to, to even some of my friends that are in their early 60s who are in leadership positions, they're struggling with the generation below mine because seemingly victimhood has worked for them. Um, it had- How so? How so?

I think that, uh, you know, I think that an over-indexing on kinda toxic, uh, well, we'll call it a, a toxic empathy. It's a, it's a I care so much, I'll do anything for this result whether you like it or not. Uh, I will... You know, my situation requires me to take, you know, these 10 medications. I need mental health days.

I need to work from home. Uh, I need more vacation time, uh, for, so that I'm in the right mental state to show up. I don't like when you talk to me aggressively. Um, because of my, insert some sort of perceived minority demographic of any version at this point, I somehow have been treated differently and therefore deserve more or more chances, et cetera. And you, you get this across the board and, and to be honest with you, I don't wanna ping anyone because seemingly I've had, I, you know, I've, I've... and I talk to a lot of business leaders.

There are stories from just about every demographic, including straight white men, who, who create these situations in which somehow they've been victimized in a way that they deserve something. And insert whatever their perceived thing is. Now, and my, my point in asking you that is, uh, I don't see that. You hit, like, 22 or below, and that seem, that pendulum seems to have slung back more to a moderate, rational place. And then I'd say late 30s and beyond, that was never the case.

I mean, I certainly was never raised that way, and the idea of asking for some of the things that I've even been asked for seem insane. But there is this bubble in the middle of, like, mid-30s to mid-20s that is coming through our system and is now starting to, to move into middle manager roles, et cetera, and the stories that some of my friends tell who are in leadership positions are insane, and they don't know how to deal with it. And these are good people who wanna do right by their employees. They, I mean, they're not slave drivers. They're not, you know, win at all cost, 80 hour a week, kill or be killed type people.

They wanna run businesses people enjoy working with, and they just become flabbergasted because they, they don't know how to deal with it. It's like they, they, they wanna give, but if they give, then it's 10 more asks and, and I don't... Uh, you know, in many cases I don't necessarily have great advice for them. How would you counsel them to work through that type of environment? I would show empathy for them and, and set limits with what kind of behavior is gonna be successful and accepted in the team.

I mean, you, you have to have a culture in your team, and you have to decide what that culture is. It can't just be willy-nilly. You know, if somebody comes up and makes all these demands, you can't... You know, I think people get scared. You know, having empathy means you're strong.

You see this isn't gonna work, and here's this person making these demands. You know, you could, you... So you have to have a culture and a team. You have to have an agreement about how your team is working. If everybody's doing something different and they're feeling this and they're feeling that, they're not a cohesive team.

So it's important to bring everybody together- And to have empathy, but also s- you know, set the limits. It's okay to say, "Well, you know, sorry, that's not gonna work. You know, that's not really, you know, in sync with what we're doing here, but I wanna hear... I wanna compromise, I wanna work with you, you know, and I wanna hear what you're saying." So empathic leaders, you know, I'm just in...

I have a, a whole chapter on empathic leadership and what to say in various situations and what not to say. Yeah. You know, like when someone is whining, what not to say is, "Stop whining. You're required to do your work, so do it. Cancel plans with your family if necessary.

Put in more hours until you finish." That's what not to say. What to say is, "It's clear all, to all of us that we are being asked to do more than we had planned. I know this feels overwhelming, but we will support each other and get through it. I appreciate all of you."

So, you know, you, you acknowledge, let's say you have so much overwork, you acknowledge that and then you bring everyone together and if they say, "I, I can't. I have to go home. I have to..." You know, you, you, you work with them to see if that's possible, and if it's not possible, then perhaps the compromise is, you know, half and half. I mean, you, you work with people.

You listen to people. And the thing is, so the, the sense I get from you is that, you know, they don't... We don't trust our teams. We don't trust each other. They're like adversaries, you know, in terms of this one asking for too much, I don't know how to deal with this one, it's not working.

This one's asking this, and this one's... But it's not a... A team is a team. Yeah. You know?

And, and so that's where empathy comes in because you have to have the basis of trust in a team. If you don't have that, it's gonna be all over the place, and you're gonna look at each other as the enemy, and the team needs to work together, like strung together. It's a very kind of a sacred thing, a team. Mm-hmm. Working together for the higher good.

Yeah. And I, I think, I think s- some of the, the lack of team and culture is, is right. I think some of it is, I think you used the word before, I think a lot of leaders today are incredibly poor or do not slow down to make the time to set boundaries and communicate those boundaries properly to their team. Right. Right.

And oftentimes I find if you upfront address, "Here is how we work. Yes, you're on salary, and yes, on most weeks you'll work 40, but there will be weeks where I need you to stay more and it might be 50," and that's the boundary. Not being able to stay occasionally, once or twice a month, for an extra few hours is, is an unacceptable... That's unacceptable. You have to be willing and able to do that when necessary, and, and upfront.

And what... I think what happens is we're in an effort to be accepting, jovial, whatever, whatever we're, whatever we're looking for, we, we, we under, we under-deliver on the boundaries, and therefore people don't know where they are, so they push and push and push. And I think- For sure ... especially some of my friends who are in, say, they're, that, that are maybe 10, 15 years older than me, they never... The previous cultural, the previous societal culture that they experienced in, early in their career, no one asked for more than what was normally accepted. Mm.

So they never had to deal with it, right? So you didn't have to set boundaries- Right ... 'cause the boundaries were just, like, understood. And now this generation in particular that I'm talking about, like, you know, kind of some of the millennials, some of the xennials I guess, they'll ask for everything until you tell them to stop, and they don't, they don't know how to deal with that while still being nice. So then some of them overreact the wrong way and they become jerks, and then they hate themselves for being jerks, or they don't. Uh, and then the, and now, now it becomes a very combative environment.

And I guess what I'm hearing from you is that, and I, and I agree, is that setting those boundaries up front and first might head all of this off at the pass. Absolutely. I mean, you've gotta, um, assume that, assume the best in people in the beginning. You have to trust each other if you're in a team. You don't trust each other, you're not gonna go anywhere.

So you have to treat each other with, with respect. Um, and in the beginning, be transparent, you know, and empathic. You can be... Definitely set a limit. People are afraid to set limits and boundaries in business or in personal relationships because they feel guilty, they're afraid they're not gonna be loved, they're afraid that people will resent them.

You know, all kinds of, you know, fears there's, because of the early child upbringing, uh, of, that they went through where it wasn't safe to set boundaries at home, so they never learned to do it. And it's an, it's an essential skill that goes along hand-in-hand with empathy. If I didn't, if I don't know how to set boundaries, I'm gonna be exhausted by my interactions with people because they're gonna drain me, you know, with all this behavior. But if I'm clear, you know, let's say we're in a specific situation, a team situation. We have too much work.

You know, nobody likes it. You know, we're tired and we're, you know... But we've gotta do it as a team together. You know, it, it's, it's... You have to start with trust.

And so when you hire people, I think it's essential that you, you tell them the truth and see if that's what they want, if they wanna, you know, sign on to that. Yeah. And... But, but what makes it all easier with all the stresses of business and what makes the success is the unity- And the empathy which raises the vibration up, which has the team as a whole, and you have the sense you could work through things together. Yeah.

Yeah, I like that. Do you... So, and do you believe, and this is a shot in the dark based on what we're talking about, but I'm kinda thinking on the fly as I, as I listen to you. Do you believe that the removal of, say, general patriotism, and we could say, like, national anthem, pledge of allegiance type things, and God and prayer from public school is a big part of the reason that we're not taught empathy? 'Cause, you know, we used to have to do the pledge, we did the national anthem every day. Uh, many of my teachers, you know, when I was coming through public school, had some religious com- at least you could talk about God in classrooms.

Um, and all those things tend to come with an understanding of a greater, of a, of a, of working for a something more than myself. Like, empathy, to me, is oftentimes, uh, a derivative of believing that there's more in the world than just me, right? It's, it's, it's, it's r- removal- Right ... of that self-orientation. That's a key, key, key realization. Right?

Like, we, our world today, and it is so like me, me, mine, what do I get? Where am I? How do people view me? But you know, I'm not getting enough or whatever. What I, it's all about my stuff, my place, my house, my car.

And, uh, you know, growing up, team sports, uh, competition, um, doing things like simply saying the pledge in the morning and understanding you're part of this country of 300 million-odd people. You know, I, I, I grew up, uh, with a religious background, uh, Christianity. I was, uh, Catholic. And, uh, you know, you always had this sense that there's more to the world than just you. Now, I'm not saying you ha- there, those are the only paths, but certainly, I, I'm a strong believer that the removal of those things from public school has had a major detriment, not just empathy, but it feels like it, it could be part of... 'Cause we're certainly not taught empathy in schools.

We're, there's no empathy class. There's no, you know, being an emotionally healthy human class that we get, and all of a sudden we're thrown out into the world and we're supposed to be empathetic. It's kinda like a crapshoot whether your parents taught it to you or not. Like, does that, you know, h- h- I guess that's more of a statement or, or just a general thesis than it is a question, but where, where do you fall on what I just said? Well, I think, I'll, I'll, I'll try and answer that, but I think for me, you know, going through all those early schools, what, what was most powerful were the role models.

You know, I had some teachers who were incredible role models for me, and I learned from them what their beliefs were and how they taught me. And, you know, I was lucky to have a very good education, you know, with em- some empathic people. You know, with, with, uh, people who embodied empathy. So that's... And my, my mother and father were both doctors, and I have 25 physicians in my family, so, you know, I also learned empathy from them.

So it was a kind of a special situation for that. I mean, they weren't always empathic, but you know, they belie- with patients they were, you know. But, uh- Yeah ... yeah. But I, I don't know in terms of the pledge of allegiance. I think, I think if that's meaningful to you and that, that brings you to your heart and it makes you, uh, appreciate other people around you as, as, um, our humankind, you know, there is something greater than your own needs, I want, I want, I want.

You know, like a baby. You know, that's a baby with the bottle, you know? Yeah. It's like fixated with the nipple. So, um, yeah.

I think, I think that could be, that could be helpful given the way that you feel about it. Everybody has different feelings about things, so. Yeah. You know, the thing about empathy is that you wanna know how each person feels. You don't wanna extrapolate how you feel onto somebody else.

Yeah. But you do wanna listen to how they feel, and you might not like how they feel. Like, the me, me, me, me, me, me, me. You know, the, you know, there's ways of dealing with that, you know. And, and, and y- y- you h- you, you need to say to them at some point, those people, "I really wanna help you get what you need.

You know, I really wanna listen to you." And that will calm them down, you see? They're, they're like babies that aren't being listened to, so they're crying and- Yeah ... uh, they're, they're, they're kind of regressed when they're in that me, me, me state. That's a infant state. Um, and so you have to deal with it as such, but you wanna calm them down and say, "I wanna give you what you need.

I wanna talk to you about what you need. Let's go out to lunch, you know, and let's, let's bond." So let's say I'm listening to this and I'm a leader of an organization, regardless of size, and this is something I struggle with. Uh, I'm a hard charger, say I'm a, a, a driver or whatever, whatever moniker you wanna put on those people that are in the upper right quadrant of every personality test. And, you know, but, but I understand.

I'm, I'm aware enough to know that this is a weakness of mine. How, what could I do besides, um, s- spending some time with your work, which I dove into both, both your, on your website and, and getting into the books. Like, what are maybe just a few simple takeaways or, or even if it's just one thing that someone could do today to start to cultivate more empathy in their life if they know this is a weakness for them? Well, you could be a hard charger and have empathy. I'm not against hard chargers.

I'm all for them. Yeah. If that's, if that's who you are and that's your personality, go for it, you know? I think that's incredible. But you wanna be a hard charger with empathy.

Yeah. You see, that's what sometimes people can't wrap their minds around, that they can be both. That you can be this hard charger, you could listen to what someone's feeling and still say it's not possible for us to do that. You know, I'm sorry. Maybe next time.

And, and I'm open to listening to your ideas. I value your ideas, just not in this project. That won't work. So you can be a hard charger and speak the truth, you know, in a, in an empathic way. That's what I'm suggesting, is you shift your energy when you talk to people.

Yeah. So you're not a hard charger and mean and, mean and horrible, and people feel this tall when you're done with them. You don't wanna do that. Yeah. You know?

I mean, that's what people do 'cause they don't know any other way. Yeah. That's what their mother did to them. Let's say you're that person. Ex- ex- exactly, and that, and that's kinda my question, is let's say you are that person who you don't know any other way, but you're self-aware enough to know that this is a weakness of yours, and you would like to improve it.

You would, you would like to take this weakness and, and start to cultivate being a more empathetic person to your team. You, you, you may... I, I, I know quite a few guys, uh, these, these just are men. I'm not saying it doesn't happen to women, just the particular three or four people who are in my brain are all men, um, who they're, they're, they're driven, hardworking people. Uh, they tend to come off as jerks to their team, and they know it.

They don't, but they don't mean it, right? Like, they- Right ... they w- they know. They just, they just don't slow down enough, or they don't, they don't give it enough weight or whatever to, to, to be that empathetic leader. But I know all of them, if you, if you pull them aside and you talk to them offline, they will tell you it's something they would like to be. It's, it's a known weakness.

Is there, is there a, a, a journal prompt? Is there a activity? Is there a, a mental exercise or, or whatever you recommend that they could start to do to, to build that in? Is it, is it maybe just notating when you have a bad interaction and what maybe you coulda done differently? Like, what, what is something that that individual could do to start to, to bring more empathy into their life if they want it?

Okay. What I suggest in the book is to prepare before you go into a meeting, and to set your, um, w- where you wanna be at. You know? D- you don't wanna be rushing going into a meeting. You wanna have maybe a few minutes where you can center yourself.

You can say, "I wanna be this way with this group. I wanna ask people for their opinions. I wanna slow myself down. I wanna take a breath before I go in so I'm not so tense and wired so tightly that I say things I don't like. I wanna be, you know, a better person."

Yeah. "And I wanna learn." You see, there's a certain humility to wanting to learn this. Mm. You know?

And not be all threatened by it. You know? It, it's an evolution in your, in how you're treating people and how you're treating yourself. It will only benefit everybody . Yeah.

But it, you know, the ego gets so challenged by this. But you, you have this journal prompt beforehand where you write, "Who do I wanna be? What words do I wanna say?" I hear what you're saying is a good word to begin with for the team. When they express themselves, "I, I hear what you're saying.

Thank you." And you don't have to fix it. You don't have to do anything at the moment. Just begin to shift the energy of being an empathic team rather than this hard-charging cold or nasty leader that you don't wanna be. So slow it down.

I think what, you know, the type of person you're talking about are wound so tight, and they might drink a lot of caffeine before the meeting. You might wanna cut that down a bit- Yeah ... so you're not so wound when you go into the meeting . Yeah. No, I love that. And I love that you shared listening.

Listening is something that... So I was, uh, and I've shared this on the podcast before. About two years ago I was diagnosed with, uh, hyperactive bipolar. Oh. And for the previous 41 years of my life I just thought I was nuts.

Um, and I had all this rampant energy that was always way more than everyone else in the room. And I, for a while I thought it was a superpower, and then it also has downsides. And it, when I really started to do some internal work and say, "Okay, I wanna evolve as a leader. You know, I, I don't wanna be that, that leader that has, you know, maybe a few like really high positives, but then also has really low negatives." And, uh, and then I went and saw some doctors, whatever, and, and kinda came up with this diagnosis.

And while nothing has really changed in terms of how I take care of myself, the diet's a little different, exercise, stuff like that, it was one of the big takeaways that my counselor gave me was, uh, listening, w- was she's like, she's, she's like, "Just, just make a habit of listening to people." Like, like, listen. Like, when I say listen, don't wait to respond. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying listen to the words they're saying.

Uh, this podcast helps a lot. This is almost daily practice at this point, uh, in listening. But, uh, and, and she actually turned me on to this, uh, ancient Chinese proverb that I enjoy, or it's, it's kinda more of a story. There's a, there's a, a, a Chinese monk, and a, and a new student comes to see him and sits down and asks if he can share time and learn from him. Monk says fine, goes and gets tea, sets tea down, and the, uh, uh, pours the tea and the student starts talking.

And time goes by, and the student is still talking, and talking and talking, and talking and talking- ... and talking, and at, at, finally the monk stands up and grabs the teapot and starts refilling the student's cup until the cup starts overflowing the cup and onto the tray. And the student's yelling, "Whoa, stop, stop, your, my cup is full." And the monk sits down and says, "The value of the cup is its emptiness." And, uh, Bruce Lee took that on as a mantra, and I have found that- Mm. Just that, those three words or four words, the value of the cup is its emptiness, I guess five words, is, uh- ... has been something that I try to play in my head before I go into podcasts, before I go into important meetings with people.

Uh, I coach little league baseball, and before I interact with 12 10-year-olds who are absolutely off the wall , you know, I'll try to tell myself this, this emptiness thing, 'cause we just, we just ... When you listen to somebody, it's almost difficult not to be empathetic with them, but we just don't listen. Yeah. Well, if you're triggered, it's hard to listen, so that's ... You know, I'm just adding one, you know- Yeah ... little element, 'cause there's ...

In, in, uh, the book I have a chapter on the obstacles to empathy, and one of the obstacles is being triggered. You know, if a team member is triggering you with something, and when that happens, and it will happen, of course you're gonna be triggered in that intimate environment, you wanna deal with it on your own, not with the person. You wanna say, "Hey, I'm triggered. I notice that I'm reactive here, and I'm about to say something I regret, and I don't wanna do that because that's gonna cause damage." So that's how to be empathic with yourself.

That's what to say to yourself. Take the sacred pause, maybe take a break for the meeting, get yourself back together again. And, you know, it's your ... You know, this is the, the harder part of empathy. It's your work to, you know, help to backtrack and see where that trigger came from.

Yeah. You know, was it your father trying to control you all the time, you know, so you just get enraged when that happens? And the thing about empathy is that, and self empathy, is when you do this kinda exploration, you could do it with a therapist, you do it with a coach, you can do it, you know, just in journaling, is that it does require some accountability, you know, for your triggers and, you know, wanting to clear them so that you're not always so reactive. And the reason you wanna do that is when you're triggered, your power is gone. Mm.

You know? You're not in your power, and you wanna be in your power in your interactions, but if you're triggered, it's all over. You know, if you're just reacting from that place. I couldn't, I couldn't agree with that more. I l- I love that.

Uh, Dr. Judith, this has been tremendous. Uh, we have so many leaders who listen to this show, and I think that this is ... Uh, empathy is something too many of us give lip service to without actually putting into practice. Right.

I think that your work is incredible. Uh, where can people go to get more of you, what you do, your books, et cetera? Where's the best place to go? My website is great. It's Dr Judith Orloff, O-R-L-O-F-F.com, and you can get, uh, The Genius of Empathy there, on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and bookstores.

And I have a lot of empathy resources. I give empathy training programs for businesses as well that you could find out on my website. Well, I'm so glad we got to share this time. Uh, for you guys listening at home, uh, you can go directly to where everything Dr. Judith sent you.

I'll also have everything in the show notes, whether you're watching on YouTube or, or listening on, uh, wherever you listen to your podcasts. I'll have all these links in the description as well so you can click over. Uh, I think that this is something we need to have real discussions around. We need to practice in a way that is healthy and productive, and in doing so, I think it's the only way to get the most out of your people. So I, uh, I'm so glad we were able to share time, m- so glad we were able to expose this audience to you, and I wish you nothing but the best.

Thank you so much for having me on. Let's go. Yeah. Make it look, make it look, make it look easy. Hey, stand up guy, bum 10 toes.

Big body, pull up in a Range Rover. I can change the whole game when I say so. I pull up, shut it down, yeah, they know. Huh. Running this game ain't a thing for me.

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