How to Dominate the Scratch Agency Game with Stephen Turnbull

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In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. Today we have a tremendous episode for you, a triple tremendous episode for you, a conversation with scratch agency owner, podcaster all around, incredible dude, someone who is kind of showing what it means to take the bull by its horns, as you will. Steven Turnbull from T5 Insurance out of Utica, New York. I'm an enormous fan of Steven, what he's doing, how he's doing his work, his focus, his dedication, how he plays to his strengths.

I think that Steven and the crew of scratch agencies that he's hooked up with are kind of redefining what it means to be a scratch agency and showing that there's nothing to be scared of. We don't have to be scared of being a scratch agent, that you can do it, that you can make it happen, that there's success to be had, that there are opportunities to be had, and that hardworking producers who are not given the opportunity to grow inside of legacy agencies can split off and be highly successful. And I think Steven and, like I said, some of his crew that he's created around this whole, you know, the scratch agency, you know, this kind of, we'll call it a cohort of scratch agencies, are just doing absolutely tremendous work. And Steven kind of came out to Albany back in the spring, early summer-ish, and we sat down at Dinosaur Barbecue, and we just talked business and what he was doing, and I tried my best to give him, you know, just some insights from what I learned launching Rogue and different stuff like that, and just watching him grow and be successful. It's been incredible.

I'm an enormous fan of Steven. I'm rooting for him every day, and just this conversation was absolutely wonderful. There's a little bit, you're going to hear a little bit of a hiccup in the middle. We had some technology issues, some internet connectivity issues. I've kind of done my best to kind of cut those out, but if you hear a little screwiness in the middle, that's that.

It takes two seconds when we get past it. But just absolutely tremendous episode, absolutely tremendous conversation, and I highly encourage that you keep an eye on Steven, what he's doing, because I think he's going to be a primetime player in the years to come. And you heard it here first, unless you heard it somewhere else first, and then you heard it there first. Okay. So before we get there, guys, love you for listening to this show.

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So with that, guys, let's get on to the tremendous Stephen Turnbull in this conversation right now. I'm going to Shaboos! Anytime I get my Zoom setting, anytime I'm invited to a Zoom, it puts McClure's name in there for some reason, but whatever. How are you doing? I'm good, bud.

I'm excited to chat. I've wanted to have you on the show for a while, and just I actually, you know, for a whole bunch of reasons, I had a whole mess of stuff going on. I had a few weeks where, like, I just wasn't recording and wasn't just, you know, I missed a couple weeks of the show. The good news is I got a big backlog going now, which is great. I love that Sabres jersey behind you.

That's a baller. Whose jersey is that? So it's Reinhardt's jersey when he was there, and then Eichel, Reinhardt, and Oposo signed it. So that's when they did the Kraft Hockeyville thing, and they came to Clinton and did the game. Yeah.

So there's a legendary picture on the NHL's Instagram of me with my jersey pushing some 10-year-olds out of the way, trying to get his side. And I'm like, wow, that was really aggressive. Now the entire world's looking at it. That's great. That's awesome.

That was a cool experience. Dude, well, man, you've had quite the journey over the last year, and it was awesome to spend time down in New York at Ben's thing. That was cool. Yeah. Dude, I know you got the podcast, and tons of people are listening to it, and it's awesome, and you and Sean are doing really cool stuff.

But for people who listen to this show who maybe haven't heard of what you're up to or what you're doing, give them the quick lowdown just on T5 and all that and what you're up to, and then we can get into the fun stuff. Yeah, sure. Well, I appreciate you having me on. And like you said, it's been a wild year. It's been only nine months of starting T5, and I've been listening to your show for a while, and it's kind of a surreal experience to be here now with you as an agency owner.

So I appreciate you having me on. I've been in the industry for about seven and a half years now at this point, and I started my career working for my family agency here in Utica, New York. They had a long history, and I was the fifth generation on track to take it over. And one thing led to another where that didn't end up happening, and I left and started my own. Just purely out of the feeling of wanting to do business differently, which you can relate to, I know, and just wanting to start my own baby and give it a try.

So I did that in May of last year. Like I said, we're about nine months in. We got the podcast going, got married in September, did it all at once. So it's been a roller coaster over the last nine months, but it's been rewarding and exciting and all that good stuff that comes with starting a business and jumping right ahead first. So it's been good.

Yeah, and you're crushing it, right? I mean, you're doing great. You're writing tons of insurance. I mean, it's not like you didn't, at least my understanding, you know, from listening to some of your stuff and talking to you is that it's not like you limped into it. You know, you kind of got right in and running it.

It's like you had the treadmill going, and you just jumped on it running at full speed, which is really, really cool. Yeah. Well, yeah, the treadmill was going. I think the exciting part and to my advantage, too, was I just had so much bottled up in my head that I wanted to do in my previous agency that I wasn't able to do. I wouldn't say a lot.

I just wasn't able to do. It was an older lifestyle agency. The staff had been there for so long. You're trying to change old ways, and it was just kind of one of those situations where I was just hitting my head, and I had all this stuff bottled up inside my head of different ways to do things, different customer interactions that now I could do. You know, now I could build that foundation, and just there's no more of, oh, we did it this way.

This is what we're doing. So, you know, that's the biggest thing I'm focusing on now. It's just me and the agency still. I don't have any staff, and, you know, it's just building that foundation, making sure that foundation's nice and set before, you know, we continue to keep going. So, but it's all been all been good stuff.

Yeah, one of the funny things about when we were down in New York together, for everybody listening a week ago or a few weeks ago, I can't remember. Yeah, a week ago. Was it last week? Yeah, it was last week. It seems like two months ago, but it was last week.

Oh, my gosh. Life moves so fast. Like, I can't believe that was only a week ago, but so last week from recording this, whenever you're listening to it, we were down in New York. Doug Benz put this awesome, like, mastermind thing on, and what was funny is Turnbull and Sean Fitzgerald are walking around with their laptops and little bags while we're, like, going around because, you know, that's the startup agency life is, like, someone calls, something's got to be done. Like, the only person to get it done is you, and, you know, it's awesome, and it's part of the deal, and it's one of those memories, and we've all done it.

I did the same thing. You know what I mean? You know, every single person who started an agency from scratch, especially if you're bootstrapping, has done that thing. Well, if you started it in the laptop world, you know what I mean? Maybe you were walking around with a binder, you know what I mean, back in the day.

But, you know, so that's the life. It's all good. But it was funny, you know, just everyone's kind of walking around, and then these guys got their computer bags with them, you know, just in case. Yep. Yep.

You can tell who the scratch guys were. Yeah, yeah, you know, and look, like, that's part of the deal. Like, that's part of the thing that I think, being willing to do that, being willing to, one, it's what makes you a good agency owner, because you're not taking your responsibilities lightly by being like, ah, I can take a day off. As a scratch agency owner, single guy, single person, you can't take a day off. You can't.

You know, your clients bought insurance from you. They're trusting that you're going to be there when they need you, and you kind of have to be there, and that's the, but, you know, these are the days, and I remember these days, too. Like, these are the days that you really remember. Like, I think it really cuts into you. They're the scars that stay with you, that allow you to push through some of the even harder shit that you're going to have to experience as you, you know, start hiring people.

People are really tough as you start taking on more vendors, more partnerships, more whatever. Like, you know, things, things, you know, it seems tough at the beginning, but it only gets harder as you go for different reasons, and I think it's cool. It was fun to see you guys doing your thing, and the mix of people there was awesome. Well, Friday, Friday, did I just lose you? Yeah, just for a second.

You're back now, though. You said you were on the World Trade Center loop, and you got a call. Yeah, I was on the World Trade Center loop. We're about to head into the museum, and I had to issue a binder quick, so I was sitting there on the phone pumping that out. I didn't, didn't have the laptop with me that time.

I said, I'm going to risk it and not bring the laptop, but it was kind of funny. You just like, okay, can we wait five minutes? Just taking the view for an extra five minutes. I got to send this out quick. Yeah, yeah.

To your point, that's something I'll never forget, and it's like part of the journey, and just, I think it's important to sit there and allow yourself to enjoy that as part of the journey, right? Instead of just kind of manifest over, oh, I got to do this. It's like, hey, this is all part of it, and this is what you're building. You'll remember these days, so I'm definitely a visual person. You can see the trust, the process sign behind me.

I've got some signs in front of me where I sit in the office, and I think it's important to constantly remind yourself, especially starting an agency, you know, the end goal or whatever that may be for the next steps to get you through those long days and hard times. Yeah, the reality is you made this decision to do this thing, right? And I think that's the part that a lot of people forget is like, or I think, let me put that a different way. I think that's the part of the thing that people who haven't done it romanticize is like, oh, you know, I'm still going to live my life or I want to live my, it's like, no, no, no, no. Like maybe you can, but there are trade-offs.

Like you got to bring your freaking computer with you everywhere. And you know, you got to tell your, your wife or your partner or your friends or whoever you're with, like, or your kids, like, hey, I need 20 minutes to go do this thing. Like it's a non-negotiable. I have to, you know, I've been with people who've had to walk off the beach or, you know, whatever the, I think it might be my computer. My computer is like freaking out right now.

It says I'm good and shows we're still recording on my end. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I actually, I'll tell you what, I actually have no idea what was going on. My computer screen just went black and it's all fucked up.

And it's because my Mac blew up the other day. Oh God. And, and went blue smoke on me and I have another Mac coming and I'm on a PC, which is the worst computer in the world. Oh, we can, we can talk about this for hours because I'm on a PC and I went to the Mac because of the Hawksoft and PL rating stuff. You can, you can work it on a Mac, but it's just way too many things you got to do and it's easier to do the PC.

So I'm, yeah, I feel you there. I, you know, one of the reasons that I'm actually not on Hawksoft is because of that requirement. Like I looked at Hawksoft a lot and I was like, eh, cause, cause early on, all I had was a Mac, right? All I had was a Mac computer. That was what I had.

And I didn't have the money to buy a new computer at that time. So like, even though things are really wacky, it seems like it's still recording. So we're just going to keep going. Yeah, we're good. Yeah.

Actually the Hawksoft, the Hawksoft for me was fine. There was a back end you get through, but the PL rating, the Raider was the reason I had to move to PC. But anyways. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, it's like, you know, what's crazy to me is that, you know, so, so we're on, we're on Nexure right now for our agency management system. And they recently came up with some patches and now you can use a Mac and everything for, for, for, on, on Nexure. But when we first started looking at it back in August, you couldn't. And they're like, well, you know, not a lot of people asked for that. And I'm like, really?

Like, yeah, I guess. I mean, I, I, I just, for me, my, my issue is that if I'm like a hundred percent effective on a Mac, on a PC, I'm like 60% effective. I'm just not like, I feel like a committee designed the UX, which it probably did of Microsoft. And, you know, when you look at a Mac, it's like, no, someone who actually uses this thing every day built it. Not, not a committee, which I think, yeah, I think is a good like analogy or metaphor, probably analogy, I guess, to, to our industry is like, when I look, when we look, when you look at the user experiences in our industry, right?

The, the few that, that wow us or that excite us or seem like the future it feels like someone was like, you know what? This is the way it's supposed to be done. Let's do it this way. Let's get after it this way. Like, here's how I want people to go through the flow.

Here's what I'm seeing. And then everything else feels like a group of risk managers sat in a room and said, let's come up with the, the, you know, let's come up with something that we all agree on. That's the, you know, that has every feature that could possibly have. Cause God forbid, you know, it just, yeah, you know, it, it, uh, and I, a good example of this, I think is like better agency, right? Like better agency.

Um, you know, we're, we're working with them on some things. Um, uh, and you know, a lot of people have mixed opinions about better agents. There's a lot of mixed opinions. And I think some of that was, they went a little hard on their marketing a little too early. Right.

And I think they would even agree that they made a lot of claims early that were not actually real. Now today, a lot of those claims are very, are true. Like they actually make good on them. But, um, I look at a tool like that and I'm like, that's, that's a user experience that you can train one of your producers or CSRs on in an hour. You know, we're six months into next year and we still have questions every single day about how to use it.

It's just incredibly complex and that's not a knock on next year. Epic, AMS 360, they're all the same. Like, you know, they're so complex. Their UX is so daunting that it's very difficult. But, you know, but what better agency doesn't, you know, a better agency doesn't have is every field, every button, everything, you know, it doesn't have, you know, it doesn't have the full scope.

So there's this trade-off that we have to make in trying to design how we're going to, one, run our agency and two, the experience that we want to give both our team and our customers that doesn't seem like it's been fully figured out yet. So when you were starting to jump into your own software, the software that you were going to use, and I hate, I don't want, we don't have to talk about specific software because that conversation gets kind of boring. I'm more interested in like what was the thought process that you were going through when you had to make these decisions because early on some of these decisions can be booms or they can be, they can cripple you. So, how did you go through that thought process? Yeah, well, to your point too, I got a little bit down the rabbit hole in the beginning, I would say, and then kind of just popped my head up and was like, what are you doing here with trying to change what you're used to?

So I was, we've already mentioned them. So I was on Hawksoft at my previous agency and so that was just an easy swap for me. I was already familiar with the system. For me, it was just like the familiarity of it because the last thing that I had to do was starting the agency was try to learn a new system, right? I just, I already knew it.

I think it works well. It works well for what I need to do. And then the CRM I was on at the time wasn't talking to Hawksoft so that's how I got kind of down the rabbit hole of wanting to find something that was more integrated. And I, and to your point, I did talk to better agency and look at that but it just didn't make sense to change everything up at that time when I was, you know, three, four months in and necessarily didn't want to because I was familiar. I knew, I knew where I needed to go in Hawksoft to do the things I needed to do and then I ended up just taking on a new CRM that had the integrations already set up with Hawksoft and working through there which was, again, something that was familiar. my old agency I was the only one that was using the CRM so it's not like there was somebody else that knew bells and whistles that I didn't, right?

I would train myself on it and I was the only one using it and so for me it was just what's going to be the most familiar so that I can just focus on growth and selling policies and then, you know, down the road if there's something else that makes sense that's going to solve a problem for us we can certainly look at that but it was just what's going to be the best thing to be able to grow as fast as possible. So that definitely feels like you know, one of the things that I wanted to kind of key on in our conversation today was around how you how you kind of you know, had the treadmill on seven and just jumped on running, right? I don't think that's common. I think a lot of people out of the gate struggle they have months where they don't write business or they write tiny bits of business because they you know, just just you know, it's hard it's, you know, doing all these different things and it seems to me like what I just heard was one of the keys for you was that you used familiar systems and making that decision allowed you to focus on what early on is the most important thing is not redefining the customer experience or revamping every part of the process even the things you might have disliked it was working with familiar tools so that you could sell business so that you could pay the bills.

Yep. Does that feel right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Nailed it on the head.

So your question is like what what what do you think attributed to me turning the treadmill up to going full speed right away? Is that what you're Yes. Yeah. So I think something that I did and admittedly I did not do this on purpose. It's just something I did.

The my previous agency was last name agency. My last name. Right. So I was that's who I was known as but I think something that I did again that was not on purpose was created the brand of Stephen Turnbull and so when people wanted quotes or whatever on social media or they got referred to me it was always to my cell phone or to my personal page and then it was just the fact that I was Stephen Turnbull with X, Y, and Z agency. It wasn't necessarily just me under the umbrella and so when I did go off and start my own it was oh well we've done business with Stephen we're going to do business with Stephen or we see him now in a different light and now I'm still going through that transition of you know I'm very much community focused in the way that I bring in business and my inbound and so I'm still trying to train kind of the community in different things that I'm now with T5 right but it's been an easier transition than I think because most of my branding and stuff has been around the personal brand of me.

Does that make sense? it absolutely does so there will come a day most likely in the not too distant future where you're going to hire a producer right so as a producer building that personal brand using your cell phone your personal email whatever you know text messaging that makes a tremendous amount of sense and it allows you to do something like what you did now that you're an agency owner right how are you have you thought about what are your feelings on like you know now you know Jim Jones or Sally Smith comes in and she's doing the same thing now calls are going to her personal cell phone people are texting her it's people are doing business with Sally Smith not T5 yeah that scare you does it worry you do you think or are you of the camp like hey if I treat them well it's all good they'll be here and it's all good like how do you you know does it worked for you in this transition very well I can see why it did and I think it's amazing but does it does that same philosophy now that you're the agency owner does that make you nervous um no and I'll tell you why I think if when I bring on producers I think T5 is going to have the culture I don't think I know T5 is going to have the culture where they're going to be able to do those type of things within the culture the reason that I again not on purpose was creating that personal brand was because it was not possible for me to do under the agency and I mean not possible in the sense as um I was the only one rowing the boat in one direction right um so trying to to simply do business different ways implement e-sign I mean you have to understand this agency my family agency has been around for 156 years so I joined in 2016 I was the first new hire for 22 years wow so when I joined fresh out of college in 2016 it was why does the website say under construction you know what is social media this and that and then I built all that up to the point where I was rowing the boat in one direction now the experience and the headaches and the feeling of banging my head into the wall time and time again because I've had those experiences I now know what I want to do differently now that I'm in the role of the owner to provide that young producer that new producer the tools that they need to build their brand with T5 um and not have any roadblocks and you know I'll be able to continue to remind myself when I become the first time boss of a producer whatever that is um with the experiences that I had and to try to provide them something different yeah I love that and I think I do I completely agree with you I think that experience is going to pay so many dividends for you when you start to hire people you'll be able to talk to them about the things they're feeling about the questions they have and there's there's an empathy that I'd like to believe I have you have because we've and many others because we had these experiences of just getting no or getting questioned or seeing results and having people just dismiss them because it wasn't the way business was normally brought in or whatever I feel like it does give you a competitive advantage sometimes in the hiring because you can you can talk to producers in a way that doesn't seem like a boss talking to a producer it seems like someone who's been there before talking to someone who's there now and that is definitely a big competitive advantage you know it's funny to me in our industry this conversation is often frowned upon you know a lot of traditionally nah they shouldn't have their own brand it's all about the agency it's all about the agency and you know one of the things that's really interesting is that's so much ego there's so much ego in our industry especially because as you know last name's on businesses it's all about that last name it's all about that last name okay now I look at my buddy so this morning I'm looking to buy a house and a buddy of mine owns probably the best real estate firm in the town that I live in and want to purchase in and his name's Mike Field Field Realty and I look at this dude and like in the real estate industry this is not a thing right it's like he's got this one woman her name's Joanna she's great her pictures are on all the signs it's you know Joanna ah shit I'm gonna forget her last name she probably doesn't listen to the show so it doesn't matter but you know I mean in the real estate but you know Joanna she's awesome and I know her but like she it's her brand it's just Field Realty right so the colors are red with Field Realty behind her but all the signs are like her with her arms crossed and her face and her name her names are on the sign above the Field Realty logo and it's like why is it that the real estate industry and I'm sure people have reasons and thoughts behind this but the real estate agency or industry does this so well this personal branding of you know what would be equivalent to a producer in real estate in an insurance it's like nope you I don't want your name anywhere it's not about you it's about the agency like what do you think it is about our culture is it just simply ego is it the way we're compensated is it the business model why do you think that is like what is your take on that I just think everyone's scared of change yeah you know I just think everyone's scared of change and I want to preface this comment by just saying like there's there one of the things that has amazed me in the first nine months of owning an agency is how many different ways there are to skin the cat right my family has an old lifestyle agency you go into the office at 830 to 5 you're there until 459 and paper you name it and they're very successful and they have been and that's great but the where was I going with that the what was the point what was the I lost my train of thought I asked you why the real estate industry is better at oh scared of change scared of change and I think to go back to the personal branding thing I always remember I once asked my father who was in the agency about getting outside producers and we've never had a outside producer that wasn't last name to your point about last name and this I guess this kind of answers the question before so I apologize but I always said why don't we try to hire a young producer blah blah blah and the first reaction was well what happens if they leave and in my thought my immediate answer is well that's your fault as the owner that's our fault as the managers or whatever and people are going to leave and whatever move or don't like the job or whatever but if you're providing that culture and transitioning into your next question here providing them the opportunity to grow their brand or do whatever they want to do along the scopes where it makes sense for your agency and the growth so that they enjoy their job you're doing a good job the agency's growing there should be no reason for them to want to leave you know and I think it's two with our age with the insurance industry I think it's like two separate sides of the aisle the people that are wanting to change and the people that just don't want to change and there's very little kind of in the middle there's so much fear of changing the apple card versus we got to be ahead of the next best thing and you know I think from the branding point going back to your question it's probably sure part of ego like this is my you know my business and you're going to go out there and brand yourself separately blah blah blah but I just think it mainly comes down to the fact of the old lifestyle agencies that just are scared of change and scared of doing things a different way what's up guys sorry to take you away from the episode but as you know we do not run ads on this show and in exchange for that I need your help if you're loving this episode if you enjoy this podcast whether you're watching on YouTube or you're listening on your favorite podcast platform I would love for you to subscribe share comment if you're on YouTube leave a rating review if you're on Spotify or Apple iTunes etc this helps the show grow it helps me bring more guests in we have a tremendous lineup of people coming in men and women who've done incredible things sharing their stories around peak performance leadership growth sales the things that are going to help you grow as a person and grow your business but they all check out comments ratings reviews they check out all this information before they come on so as I reach out to more and more people and want to bring them in and share their stories with you I need your help share the show subscribe if you're not subscribed and I'd love for you to leave a comment about the show because I read all the comments or if you're on Apple or Spotify leave a rating review of this show I love you for listening to this show and I hope you enjoy listening as much as I do creating the show for you alright I'm out of here peace let's get back to the episode I was thinking about this the other day actually while we were on our while we were at Doug's thing down in New York you know I feel like a big part of this change too or this the difference and I don't know I don't know your dad I don't know your uncle I don't know you know your previous agency I just know you but I think a big part of that friction is that the legacy of our industry is risk managers people were everything was risk risk risk risk everyone says we're risk managers risk managers I'll be honest I don't know anybody who's 45 and under in this industry maybe a couple that are like hardcore risk managers right they're sales people it doesn't mean they don't appreciate risk it doesn't mean they don't appreciate what we do it doesn't mean that they they aren't good at what we do like from from an actual nerdy insurance standpoint but they're sales people to be good at this job today the people that get it in it the people that love it the people that are grinding that are pushing they're growing they're sales people they're sales people men women whatever they're sales people I feel like that hasn't always been the case I felt like the people who built this industry were at were true risk managers and because of the nature of everything was local you just sat there and you you you managed you you walked around houses and you nitpicked cracks and steps and handrails and painting peeling from building or whatever right and it was like oh that wood chip could have you know some chemical in it and we need to you know mitigate that and it's like eh I get that those and I'm not saying right or wrong you know I think it's an evolution I think some of it is the the homogeny of insurance products you know where you know 20, 30, 40 years ago the difference in coverage from carrier to carrier was very wide there was a huge wide gap right so so knowing how to do these things and what carriers to put it with and who was a big part of the business and today it's like personal auto home umbrella I mean these things are so homogenous I mean I can't imagine there's even very many words that are different in a policy form and in a small commercial bop it's almost exactly I mean I cannot there is no difference no no meaningful difference in any way shape or form between most of the standard bops that you'll see in the market so so like I feel like today you're a salesperson you're a marketer you're trying to grow talking to someone who who grew up who lives who breathes and thinks risk management and that feels like one of the like a primary driver of the difference I don't know is that I mean that's just a theory I don't know what do you think about that is that yeah I definitely I definitely agree with you I think obviously social media and the you know the way to connect virtually and different things have provided us a different way to sell I just think one of the I've said this all along I tell people all the time if you do your job and do the right thing you're going to be successful right especially in this industry if you just do your job are available for your client and do the right thing by your client and doing the right thing by the way may be hey Mr. and Mrs.

Smith I'm sorry your home and auto is in the best place but we'd be happy to look at it next year you know that's the way and I hope this answers your question where I'm going that's kind of the way that I've grown my brand I've never made a cold call I haven't been that type of salesy person I've led with the educational you know I'm here to help you solve a problem and type of I'm here if you need it and with the referral relationships I've made and my community involvement it's just kind of morphed into me being the local young insurance guy you know that's getting after it which has worked out very well because my pipeline is continuously full just from inbound referrals so instead of to your point nitpicking different you know different aspects or trying to sell with that or whatever it's just kind of more I hate to use the word like holistically you know trying to just be there from an educational standpoint and you know do the right thing by the client does that does that answer your question at all or did I go off again on it no it's good do you think that your town plays a role how much do you think being in Utica which you know being a smaller town in upstate New York with a community of people who tend to know each other tend to stay there tend to you know that that's their town you know how many people in Utica 50,000 I mean yeah that's six I think 60 or so yeah 60,000 people so it's it's big enough to have plenty of opportunity but not so big as you know you probably know a lot of the major players everyone's kind of seen each other like you know if you go to a to a larger market that that local man about town game I just I don't know that it works as well or it's certainly it's significantly more difficult do you think that do you think part of your success too is that your way your disposition your preferred method of growing an agency fits very well with the geographic location in the community that you're in right now yeah I would agree I would I would say so and but and I don't think I wouldn't tie it just to Utica and the the workup of what Utica is about I would always tie it into like I'm I'm very present right so I've I've at 28 years old I was already the president of the Rotary Club I serve on the local chamber or compass board I'm vice president was a vice president of the BNI group like all these things that I've already kind of just engulged myself in to try to get me out there because again even when I was working for my last name insurance agency that was great but I needed to create the brand of me to get out there and get my own people and now it's the same but different with T5 and just being present and being able to be the insurance guy that oh you have your home and auto or your small business or whatever it is with me and you see me out at the chamber event or you see me out here at your son's soccer game or whatever that is I definitely think the small town feel helps but I also I think it on top of that it's helped that I just kind of make myself seen in the community and you know known as the the young gun insurance guy if you will for as much as I hate to say that yeah no I think that's great I think that I think my point there and I think you made it perfectly was you kind of have to fit who you are what you like to do how you like to prospect how you like to grow your business to yes the customers you want to serve for sure but I think the community that you're in and the disposition of that community it matters like you know you take the way you're doing things and you put yourself in you know Boston or Westchester or Long Island not that it wouldn't work but it may not work as fast right because now there's a shit ton of people a lot of transients a lot of people who don't care that you're the man about town they're just looking to get through their life they're busy as shit they don't know who you are from Adam doesn't matter you know what I mean it's a different way in your town being a person about town being a guy who supports Utica who invests himself and that really matters now if you were to go hardcore Google paid ads and search probably doesn't work as well or certainly doesn't get you the traction right say it did for me here in you know Albany which you know if you count the surrounding areas were about 750-800,000 people you know or someone who's in a larger market you know they kind of have to take different tactics so it definitely seems like today local that local kind of man-woman about town it works incredibly well in some regions in other regions it may still work may take a little more time may not allow them to get off the ground and you almost have to fit like yes fit your fit your your marketing strategy your sales strategy to the customers you want to serve for sure but I think today even more you have to you have to or maybe not more but certainly as a as a strong piece of the puzzle match it to the community you're in as well the geographic region that you're in what the disposition and flow because here you have two types of people live in Albany and then you have people who are from some other place that are here because it's the seventh largest government and one of the most corrupt governments in the world New York is terrible don't move here um and uh and and they're and they don't give a shit right so like I have found that in the so if you go Albany local doesn't mean anything but if you go you have to draw all the Latham is a town of like 15,000 people you know Latham is a small suburb or Clifton Park another you know again these suburbs are probably more like 30,000 people themselves but like you know you have to really drill down for that to work where you know for my ex-wife's family agency the Murray group you know Albany was their local you know back when that agency was started local had much had a much wider reach yeah I don't know I think it's important to identify it but I also think it's important to you know sprinkle in other ways you know one of these things like I said with starting the scratch agency when the podcast was Sean and we met a good kind of core group of people we have a weekly call we're all new agency owners I think within at least two and a half years and there's like me that has never made a cold calls completely community based or inbound referrals and one of the other guys in there is just strictly cold calls and he does super good you know but like we have learned off of each other of he has his office is in a spare bedroom in his house and he hammers the phone all day long and is very successful and I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum and I'll say that's one of my flaws I need to be better at doing more outbound stuff like that instead of the inbound referral stuff I got a question for that though why is that a flaw I would say I think there's a little bit of missed opportunity if you're cold calling you're not you're not asking for referrals you're not following up on referrals you're not out at an event right like I know and I go back and forth in this this is an honest question you know this is like I used to I don't as much anymore I used to listen to Gary Vaynerchuk a lot and one of the things I thought was really don't try to fix your flaws double or triple into your strengths and if one of your if your strength is being the community guy you're great at leading organizations of gathering people together connecting people being about town you love it you're good at it people know you that way why not find ways to double and triple into that versus trying to learn how to cold call which is going to suck the life out of you because it's not natural like like for this other guy it's obviously something that puts life into him that for him you know that really drives him because he's willing to do it all the time cold calling I hate it right I absolutely hate it for me but but I also don't love being out around town and doing events I really like digital marketing that's what that's why I double and triple into digital marketing because that's what I really like so you know I think that I would caution I don't say caution caution is the wrong way that makes it sound like I know what I'm talking about you you're absolutely right I think it's worth thinking about is that really a missed opportunity for you because unless you're trying to make T5 into a middle market powerhouse right why do you need a cold call and even then I don't think you have to cold call to be good at that I think that you know I just I always think about should I try to learn a new skill or should I just get better at what I like doing and already know how to do and just become the best right I don't know nope you're absolutely right yeah that makes complete sense here you go again Hanley get my mind spinning now I'm gonna be thinking about this for another week just like my first employee well that was an interesting conversation I again I don't know right or wrong I just like I think about these things and you know I consider everything an experiment in my life everything I just they're all experiments and projects I have very few things that I I mean I have like core values that obviously dictate my life and what I believe in but but you know when it comes to business and it comes to these kind of things I think projects and experiments and you know what I tried cold calling I've tried I've tried a lot of different things and I did a lot of what you're doing early early in my career and found that you know going to the networking events constantly like I it's not to me I run out of steam doing that but I could literally make videos right you know last night at midnight I'm working on SEO on my website because it's fun you know I don't know yeah I just you know so like but for other people that would like their brain would melt and it would be terrible and they would hate it so I think to myself like versus trying versus trying to deplete ourselves in places that that drain our energy why not just be the man or woman in the things that we that we do really well and love I guess yeah no you're absolutely right yeah yeah it's man you got my mind spinning about a lot here but I mean just it like perfect example and I don't want anybody listening to this to be like oh my god that's a great idea I need to do it because I'm gonna have the same outcome I think there's a lot of luck but I when I first started when I first announced T5 I knew I have to be as loud as possible about now Stephen Turnbull's with T5 because it was always you know with the other agency and so it was end of May that bought a Yeti cooler I got a big T5 logo I slapped it on there and did a we're open for business big giveaway got I don't know 120 people that entered into it locally but I wrote three homeowners policies from it that paid for the cooler three times yeah you know and and and then got people on my email list and like that's still the community stuff I think it's so much more than going to the networking events or you know I just started a referral program that I have kind of internally and I have not put that out there and said hey we're doing this great referral program you'll get a five dollar coffee gift card and this and that and all that crap I've just done it internally for the ones that I've had but and that's been man that's been eye-opening because I'm actually tracking each and every one and I'm at like an 80% closure rate with those those and just inbound referrals so far for 2023 and the ones that I'm tracking so yeah I think to your point there's you bring up a great point you know why not double down on exactly what has worked well up until this point and because again I'm still just by myself and there's so much more that I want to do that's around the community involvement around the inbound referral type thing that I just either need to wait until I have some more help or more time or because think about you start cold calling because cold calling is a skill and I anyone who cold calls it as part of their business I give a tremendous amount of respect to because yeah it is its own skill that seems easy but it is incredibly difficult right you read you read a cold calling ebook or listen to somebody on a webinar or go to a presentation or whatever and it they talk about it and yes the things they're saying you're going yeah I can do that I can say that oh there's a script that's great I can use that script yeah yeah this sounds great and then you do it and you're terrible at it for for a very long time right and unless you're one of those people who just naturally can do it and but not that you can't learn the skill but there are people who just you know they're gravity towards it and it's like okay you're you're you're a solo guy you don't have any backup yet you're now you're having a ton of luck or not luck I don't want to put like luck you're having a ton of success in in these community we'll put all the things you've talked about in community based agency and you don't have any designs to be in 17 states and all this kind of stuff you want to dominate your market and you can make so much money and maybe expand to some towns outside at least for now right so like think about how much how much time you're going to waste trying to learn how to do something like cold call like you're going to waste a lot of time you're going to make you're going to waste days days and days and weeks and maybe longer trying to get accounts in and even then those accounts that you get in cold calling you're going to have to service those accounts right that's going to be a nightmare and you know that to me I don't know that's just that is the way that I've kind of started to think is like if I want to do outbound prospecting what I did was and granted I you know having sold the agency I had the budget to do this I hired producers who know how to do that work right because they like it and they're good at it and I don't have to learn how to do it I respect it I think it's amazing but I don't have to do it and I've kind of gotten to the point and this is just whatever is that I don't really want to learn new shit unless it's absolutely necessary I want to hire people that know the shit that I don't know and I just want to be really good at the things that I'm good at and then just bring in people who love to do find enjoyment in know how to do are excellent at all the other stuff because man learning new stuff sucks and it takes forever well it takes so much time like you said right yeah you know that's the one thing I love about how much inbound we do just from how you know the sales process or a marketing process whatever you want to categorize it that we talked about is most of everything that comes in is so warm you know it's like Sally told me to call you here's the problem I'm having or Sally said you're the best one you know here's everything let me know it's not and I've never really been that type of like a salesy person you know I can sell but it's not it's never been like a high pressure type of sales strategy so that is what I enjoy too about you know just sounds cliche but it's just coming down to making the relationships and you morph those relationships and to your point too like the amount of opportunity that's out there is unbelievable I had a I never I didn't have this relationship in my previous agency but I kept driving by this local mortgage company and I'm like why if I not even try to reach out to him found the guy on LinkedIn got his email sent him a video myself was like hey who's here's who I am this is what I'm trying to build with t5 and here's why I think we'd work well together and with that week he sent me two deals and now everybody is his office is sending me stuff and they're like they're just feeding me like a happy pig and that was just from a simple opportunity and just saying hey I know you may have a relationship already but if you don't or if you can't get in touch with that person whatever it is I'd be happy to help here's who I am and here's why I think I could benefit you and it's worked out well so you know I think that's the strategy that I enjoy dude I mean that's that's awesome one it takes it takes balls right you you out you you did cold outreach to that person too I love the fact that you use video to do it it immediately separates you it immediately humanizes you you know don't you know loom videos video or whatever you know whatever you're using little videos boom boom or bomb bomb or the fuck it is like that stuff is those little things are so personal I love loom videos I love that stuff we use loom you know I tried vidyard I actually not only is it cheaper but I prefer loom personally but I'm just after testing vidyard for a year but I just I love that I absolutely love that and now you have this consistent flow of leads coming in and as long as you do some touch-ins and do a good job for his clients that's a that's a referral source for years that you could have that'll just be oh yeah and it's amazing to your point about video too for anybody listening like don't narrow your focus to just video proposals I think canly I told you this and when we were in the city but I had the opportunity got really close to purchasing a small book just about only six months in and I did a like a five to six minute video on who Steven Turnbull is what my vision is of T5 you know just why I think it'd be a great opportunity for me and the family that was selling the small book and the facilitator of the sale called me specifically to say the family wanted to let you know that somebody offered almost double what you did which wouldn't have made sense for me anyways so that's fine but they specifically wanted me to call because they appreciated your offer and the personalization you made and this and that and so like that was just me instead of writing out this big letter on my letter head and signing it saying I'm the best one call me let me know when to write the check it was just a quick video it's like hey here's who I am and love the opportunity to have a conversation about buying your business and if it wasn't for somebody coming in and paying double probably would have got it so yeah I think just like think I always try to again it sounds cliche but always try to think like what's everyone else not doing yeah yeah I am there you know the classic a million this is cliche almost at this point but you know Warren Buffett's quote around when other people are fearful be greedy and when other people are greedy be fearful like I kind of I kind of live by that like I well one it's certainly the way that I invest but but the other side is like I um like I will go years and not even look at my investments and then when the market goes down I'm just like buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy I just you know I'll be super active and then the market will start to go back up and I'll be like I'll forget that I even have the investments like I literally won't even think about them um I uh you know when the market's going up I literally forget that I even have stuff in the market but um the the uh I think for our industry I think it's I think what you just described is a wonderful way to do it you know like there was this craze for a while uh where everyone was everybody was mortgage brokers mortgage brokers and not that that has gone away necessarily but like there's just everybody was talking about mortgage brokers mortgage brokers and like it just felt to me like okay if everyone's doing the mortgage broker play and not that you can get involved now there's plenty of opportunity I don't want to sound like that but like geez you know what differentiates you from these other people so okay if you're also going to go after mortgage brokers you can't just say like I'm going to do a good job right it's humanizing personalizing you know that video says look like I'm willing to put my face out here because a random email is so easy you know I mean you're not really taking a risk or a or even a phone call but like saying here's something that you could share like if I look like a dope or sound stupid you could share this like there's some there's some risk of there's some reputational risk in there that I think keeps people from from moving forward and you know I think I think that's wonderful I think it's absolutely what you have to do and dude I couldn't be more happy and not that it means anything to you but but but proud of you and the work that you did and you know we had a great lunch you know right when you were first starting and I just I think it's awesome to watch what you're doing and I can't wait till you know a year or two from now I think you're going to be an absolute case study on what the first you know year two year three years of a scratch agency looks like and I'm just so happy for you yeah well just to correct you it does mean something to me because I appreciate you you've always been super even when I was at the previous agency I remember we had a conversation and I'm like hey I'm this little guy just down the road from me in Utica and I this is what I'm thinking of doing you're like do it I remember you're like buy a computer buy this system and you'll be fine go ahead and so to now to fast forward here and we're talking about you know my own agency and stuff it's it's it's it's special so I appreciate you having me on well I think in the not too distant future not not that it not that this is the bar for what success is but I do think that you'll be a household name in the industry in the not too distant future I think it's tremendous I love what you and your your crew of people you know the scratch agency stuff that you're doing I think these are these are the conversations that need to happen for so long starting a scratch agency was almost you know it was like frowned upon because no one wanted additional competition or no one thought you could do it and the result and today I think to be to be saying look like this stuff isn't easy but it's a but it's achievable it's it's real you can do it look at we did it look at how we did it like you can this could be yours if you want I think it's absolutely wonderful I think that we need to hold up what scratch agents are doing and support them and and dude I just like I said I couldn't be more happy for for your early success and I can't wait to see where you take it if people want to learn more about you more about your agency if they want to connect with you see your podcast like listen to your podcast like where tell them give all the all the CTAs where where do people go yeah real quick before I jump into that I just want to say if anybody's listening to this and there's in a similar situation maybe they feel like they're stuck and they they can't get out just remember and I wish somebody said this to me earlier that you're the only person that's going to make a change in your life right you are the only one there's a reason that the flight attendants tell you to put your mask on before helping others and if you don't take that hard decision to do it nothing's going to change so just do it I just wanted to add to that because I love that you know I wish someone told me that early on but yeah like you said I appreciate you saying the podcast Sean Fitzgerald and I started a scratch agency podcast we're like 17 episodes in and man it's been just fun you know everyone's like well what's the plan with this isn't that it's just to have fun we've had great conversations and so you can check us out there very active on Instagram Facebook and LinkedIn at Stephen Turnbull and then T5 insurance so anybody wants to pick my brain about anything we talked about today or just connect we'd love to connect with new people and happy to have a conversation but Ryan thanks again for having me I appreciate your friendship and you know your willingness to always help it's a it's much appreciated and look forward to working together in the future here yeah same buddy and we'll we'll connect IRL here real soon so all the best to you and we'll get out of here all right take care close twice as many deals by this time next week sound impossible it's not with the one call close system you'll stop chasing leads and start closing deals in one call this is the exact method we use to close 1,200 clients in under three years during the pandemic no fluff no endless follow-ups just results fast based in behavioral psychology and battle-tested the one call close system eliminates excuses and gets the prospect saying yes more than you ever thought possible if you're ready to stop losing opportunities and start winning visit master the close dot com that's master the close dot com do it today happy holidays want to give your host a gift consider subscribing rating and reviewing the show this holiday season it really helps the show grow from all of us at believe have a merry Christmas everyone and a happy holiday if you like the show please take a moment to rate review and subscribe it really does help the show to grow thank you for listening