How to Sell the Next Thing with Brent Kelly

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Good start. Good. Um, yeah, it was a very good start. But, uh, she said, she said, "You know, um, you did something really funny during our first date." And I was like, "Oh my God, what did I do?"

In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. Today, we have a tremendous episode for you, a conversation with one of my favorite people in the industry, Brent Kelly, the president of Sitkins Group. Brent is one of the premier consultants and coaches in the insurance industry and works with some of the best agencies in our space. Uh, Brent's a former producer, had his own consulting firm, then hooked up with Roger Sitkins and Sitkins Group and has really taken them to a whole nother level.

Uh, I, I, I love Brent. I love every conversation we have because where I tend to be like action first, you know, sometimes the words coming out of my mouth I haven't even put any thought behind. They're just my immediate reaction to things which, for better or for worse, tends to be, uh, my way as I think through things out loud. Brent is more measured, more thoughtful, uh, probably slightly more consistent, and what I-- and I, and I mean that in all the positive ways that, you know, when we get together, when we're able to have these conversations on the podcast which, you know, usually I have Brent on once a year, et cetera, uh, it-- they become, I believe, so valuable because you're getting this, this kinda yin and yang back and forth around concepts. And what comes out, I believe, is a, is a really solid representation of how to do whatever the topic is that we're talking about.

And, uh, that's why I love Brent, having Brent on the show because these are always some of the most valuable shows that I create are, are the ones where I'm able to talk with people like Brent, and this is, uh, no exception. This is, uh, a, a phenomenal episode, um, that you are going to love and I'm happy to share with you. Before we get there, I wanna remind you about the Insurance Growth Masterclass, my first coaching program that I've ever put together, and it's going to be exceptional. And by exceptional, I mean it will be unique to every other coaching program you've ever, you've ever been part of because it's going to be me and my way. And what I mean by that is I'm an action-oriented person.

I test things. I am unafraid to try something and fail. I am perfectly fine talking through not only the victories, but the defeats. I'm, I'm-- and, and I wanna dig in and help people grow. I do not want what I've learned over the last 18 years to die with my former agency.

This is-- what we will teach is not the only way, nor should it be the only way that you do business. But if you embrace what we teach in the Insurance Growth Masterclass, and in particular in this first season of the class, we're gonna be teach- we're gonna be focusing specifically on, on inbound sales and marketing, you know, launching with our Fill the Funnel program. Uh, it will have coursework. Uh, there will be monthly, you know, kind of webinars, trainings, uh, communities. We'll have all sorts of resources.

And guys, I just want you to grow, right? Hard market, soft market, all things are solved by growth. Carrier, you know, reduces commission. Carrier gives you bonus program, whatever, right? Employee leaves.

Employee-- you know, you, you, you're able to poach some great employee. You cultivate someone. You bring in a second generation. Th- these are all things that, that are gonna happen. And if you're growing, all of them end up being fine, right?

Everything is solved through growth. It doesn't mean more problems don't come out the back end, especially if you're not growing the right way, meaning, you know, having some tactical operational things in place to make sure that that growth happens in a proper, uh, you know, in a way that you can manage. But all problems are solved through growth. That is what we're gonna be talking about every day, every week, every month. Every piece of training, every piece of coursework is gonna be about growing your agency.

And, uh, if you wanna come along for that ride, I, I'll be honest with you, I haven't been this... passionate and excited about something in a very long time. I just wanna help people. It's all I've ever wanted to do, and I couldn't be more proud of, uh, how the Insurance Growth Masterclass is coming together. So if you wanna be a part of that, go to masterclass.insure. That's masterclass.I-N-S-U-R-E.

Masterclass.insure. Learn more, sign up. I'll see you inside the masterclass. Let's get on to Brent Kelly. Dude, I am incredibly excited to connect with you, man.

It's been a long time since you and I have had a chance to chat. And, you know, I think both of us went back and forth. We've been going back and forth for a month trying to find a date that both of us worked, and you were sick, and then, uh, this happened. But I'm, I'm glad that we finally have a chance to connect and chat because, um- Yeah ... I mean, I love what I see you're doing.

You're just continuing to grow, and obviously it's been a while now, uh, that you've been with s- with Sitkins and, and growing and, you know, really, you know, becoming, if not, you are the face of that group and, uh, and, and all the work you've done, it's just, it's incredible to see and I'm, I'm so happy for it. And I just wanna chat about, about what you, uh, what you're seeing in the market. You're in a unique p- y- a unique place here and, um, I'm interested in your perspective. Yeah. Same way.

I mean, it, it's always interesting 'cause I mean, I always forget how, I mean, I, I don't wanna do the whole, "You know how fast time goes," and all that. But I, I, I certainly stay in touch and watch your stuff, and love what you're, you're doing as well, and authenticity and different things. And I mean, I, there's a lot going on in the world in general, but I love where you're going and what you're doing. And, and, and at the same time, it's just like one of those things where you look back and you're like, "Man, we used to think we were the young, young guys out there." And, and and you very quickly are like, "Am I sounding like the old guy now?"

Yeah. You know, like, "Oh, you whippersnappers." Yes. "You don't understand how it really goes out there," right? So it- Dude ... it happens fast.

It wasn't that long ago that that was the case. I mean, w- when did we, when did we first connect? 2010? Probably 2010, 2011. Somewhere in there- Yeah ... maybe.

You know? Uh- Yep. And, you know- Yep ... so that's 14 years ago, uh, which is a crazy amount of time to think about. I've been to like seven different companies. You've been, uh, through- Three ... three, right?

Yep. Uh, when you were producing, and then you started your own consultancy, and then you moved over to Sitkins. Yeah. Um, which is awesome. And, uh, yeah, Sid, it is funny and I, and I will say that I don't feel like the young guy on the streets anymore.

You know what I mean? It doesn't, I, and, and I'm not, I don't mean that like, um, I don't mean that like I feel old. I certainly don't feel old. I feel good. I think I've kept myself healthy.

I feel like I stay on top of things and feel innovative. However, there is definitely that late 20s, early to mid-30s juice that you have where it's like, you know, you just feel like you could run through a brick wall and no one's opinion matters, and you know everything, and everyone older than you is stupid. Like, I definitely I definitely have matured out of that phase of my career and I have much more respect for, uh, for probably the broader industry as a whole, the challenges everyone faces, more perspective. I think all the things that come with time, I guess. Yeah.

It's just, that's just the, the way it goes. Interesting, I, I heard this, this is from an even older perspective, but I think it's true. Uh, maybe you'll relate to this, but like the older I get, this is what I heard, the older I get, the more I know that I don't know. Meaning that there's just, 'cause you, you're, you're more aware that this could change, or I, I don't have a full grasp of this. But he said, "The more that I do know," I mean, the more that I do know, it's less, but, but I know it with more conviction, right?

Yeah. Because it's this idea that, you know, may- and again, just to, to stereotype ages, maybe in their 20s it's like, "I can do this and that and everything and all this," and, and you've got the gusto and the passion. And here, here I am now, I'm 46, just turned 46, which is like, 40 wasn't a big deal to me. Getting close to 50 is kinda weird- Yeah ... at least for me. Um- Yeah ...

I'm like, "That can't be right." But the, but the things that I'm less brash maybe and like, "Oh, I heard this one thing, you gotta do it," because I think there's more of an evolution. But I also have a lot more, just like you do, Ryan, of like, of track record and history and experience, and I've lived it and I've seen it. Yeah. I've had multiple conversations.

And this one thing I really know. Yeah. And I, I, and I, 'cause it's not just an idea that popped in my head one day. So I don't know if you relate to that or not, but I think it's critical. I completely do.

There's another, I think a- another thing too to the knowing y- you know, there's a lot that you don't know, is also there's a lot that I don't care to ever know. Right? Like, there's like stuff now that I just don't care- Yeah ... to know about. It's just, you know, and not that I don't think it's important, just simply there's only so much you can learn and, and really master and own. And I think I, in general, I find myself to be the type of person who I like to know, I like to learn things all the time and all different kinds of stuff.

And one thing I've had to throttle a little bit in order to become just more, uh, of a master at the things that I want to be good at and where I can be good at is I've had to like take certain items and just be like, "I'm, at this point, at this season in my life, I do not have the time nor the ability to be good or learn that thing. I have to leave that to someone else and focus on the things that I can be really good at." And that wasn't an easy transition for me because when I was younger it was like, "Give me all the knowledge. I wanna know everything and I wanna know every aspect of the business." And- Mm-hmm ... you know, I, I'll, I'll tell you, let me give you a good example.

One of the areas that I have given up on is knowing the technical side of technology. Mm. I just don't care. I don't. It, it, and not that I don't think it's important, I think it's highly important, right?

I think it's very, very important. But what I've learned, and I think this is something that, um, I think this comes with- With age and experience and, and maturity is like, I'm now willing to outsource that to people that I trust. So now I have a half dozen, a dozen or so people that really know the technical side of our industry well. And if I have a question about that said, I just call them. So I'm not gonna learn it.

I don't care to learn it. I know enough, just enough to be dangerous, but now I can call them and be like, "Yo, what's up? What's really going on with, you know, generative AI? Or what's really going on with APIs or data lakes?" Like, I had a really good discussion on an episode that, um, it just, it actually just went live the week that we're recording this with Peter McDonald, the founder of Wonderite.

Mm-hmm. Awesome dude, and I think he's one of the smartest guys in the space, and we were talking about data lakes, right? And that's one of those things where like you hear people talk about data lakes and data warehouses and blah, blah, blah, and I'm just... You know, we kind of, I just... We kind of said to him like, "What?

What's the deal?" Like, you know, "Are these important? Is this something we should be thinking about? Do we need to care? Like if our, a carrier or a vendor comes out with, 'Hey, we got a new data lake,' is that something I should be excited about?

Should I not give a shit about?" You know what I mean? Like, those are the kind of things that I just have stopped really trying to go deep on, because I'm never gonna be a technical expert, so I don't know. Have you found that? Have you...

Are there things, what's something that you've done that for? Like, is there something that you kind of outsource now? Well, there, yeah, I, but there's a number of things, right? I mean, it goes all the way from professional and personal. Uh- Yeah ...

I'll start with the personal, which is kind of funny. But I mean, like, you know, and you're, maybe this is me, but like, you know, you're a guy and you're starting a family and it's like, I should know how to do some of this like, I should be able to put a storm door on my house. You know, I don't know. Like I, I'm just like, oh, yeah, I don't, I never learned. I don't care.

I don't want to know. Um, but, and early, you're like, "Well, I have to, I have to try." And, and you know the, the silly example of this is you spend all day Saturday doing something that would take someone else 30 minutes, and two years later the door doesn't open right. Yeah. Right?

Like, so like from a personal level, you're like, "Why, why, why am I worried about this?" From a professional level, there are so many examples. Yes. Um, I know, and I know you've, um, I think you've talked about it, read the, the "10X is easier than 2X." Yes.

Yep. Right? Which obviously goes into so many of these concepts of understanding unique ability and your top 20%, and, and I've been through the strategic coach program, and it just, it's one of those things, I think you hear it a few times, but it takes a while to go, "Oh, now I get it." Yeah. Like, I don't have a passion for this.

I'm not good at it. Um, but when I really tap into where I go, this is who... And this is where the experience thing, I think it takes a while to discover who you really are and what you lo- I mean, like it really is. Like, what is it that I, I tap into that when I wake up in the morning, again, I don't want to get the whole passion thing, 'cause there are a lot of things to do, but it's like I'm excited to learn. I want to go deeper in this.

Yeah. Like, I really want to. So, um, I mean, professionally, for me, it's, here's an example. Like, I'm pretty good and love to communicate and speak and be able to take concepts to our members and professionals and make them understandable, relatable, and help them do things behavior-wise. Like, I love putting those pieces together where maybe they haven't got clicks before and boom, now I've got it.

Like, so when I'm in doing that stuff, like I'm in my, putting rocket fuel in the engine, right? Like this, we got it. But I mean, I've got a, a full-time executive assistant, which years ago you'd be like, "Well, I can do this. I can do that." I don't know.

Like- Yeah ... it's just a different world. So I don't know. I mean, I, I, the example I think of this too, maybe this isn't good in the political environment, I'm not going political, but like a great president, in my opinion, any, any generation, like I don't have to know everything. I have to surround myself with really talented people and smart people and people I trust in key areas to do exactly what you said. "Tell me about this thing.

What do I need to know? 'Cause I got to make a decision that's gonna impact a lot of people- Yeah ... and I don't have time to know all the ins and outs. I just need to know what it means." I'll tell you what, um, I was a huge fan of Vivek Ramaswamy. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and he said some things that, whatever, but to be honest with you, I think that, I think it is a, a sign of a lack of intelligence or intellectual honesty when people act because somebody says one thing they don't agree with, that they can't agree with everything he says- Right ... or like him, right?

And that goes for everybody. I mean- Sure ... there's, you know, there's, uh, another politician, Dean Phillips, on the Democrat side who's running against Joe Biden, and, you know, there's some things he's said that I think are freaking brilliant, and, and I'm not a Democrat. I don't tend to, I don't tend to, uh, uh, agree with too much that goes on on that side. However, I think he's a really smart guy. Mm-hmm.

He's also got Trump Derangement Syndrome hardcore. Mm-hmm. I don't agree with that at all, whether, y- you know, but- Yeah ... it's like, geez, I can still like the guy and not like that aspect of him. But we've gotten to this point with everybody, with celebrities, with thought leaders, with, with p- politicians, even with people in our life, our friends, I feel like that we've, there's this cultural idea that's been created around like, "I can agree with everything except for one thing, but if I disagree with one thing, then you're a moron and I can't like you." And it's like, guys, you know, in general from everybody, whether it's a, whether it's some, you know, Silicon Valley, you know, Stanford graduate dick who comes in and tells us that we have no idea what we're doing, like, uh, you know, in, in the independent insurance agency space.

Like, maybe we hate that aspect of them, but are there realities to some of the things they're seeing that we can learn from? I mean, that's one of the things that I always said about, uh, um, uh, oh, shoot, uh, Lemonade. Jeez, I keep almost forgot the name. Was like, was like, yes, I couldn't stand the way that guy spoke about our industry- Mm-hmm ... and about the professionals and, you know- Mm-hmm ... literally us as people, you know. We talk very much like- ... uh, very poorly about us.

However, there were some things that he said and some ways that he built his product that I thought, "Geez, we can't discount what he's saying." Like, like, yes, do I wish that, you know, someone would, would, uh, you know, put him in his place in terms of, you know, w- who we are as professionals and what we've done for the last 400 years- Yeah ... in building, essentially building the bedrock of the, you know, the capitalistic society? But geez, man, his, his thoughts on UX and customer experience, we should really learn from them. And, you know, I think I, I do wish for our society in general across the board, not just thinking about politicians, that we could b- be better at cherry picking the things that are really valuable and not just focus on the things that we necessarily disagree with. Because a lot of people we disagree with have really good ideas that we can learn from.

Yeah. 100% agree. And, and, and I know that for human behavior it can be a challenge 'cause, especially if it's certain things that really are like, you know, points of contention, right? Yeah. Um, but you're, you're 100% right.

And I mean, you know, again, I have no doubt, and we haven't talked about this, but like there are things that you have probably said over the past five years, I go, "I don't know about that." And I'm sure there's things that I've said you'd be like, "I don't know about that," right? Like, and, and this, and by the way, this is why, and I appreciate, I see some of these things too, where you're like, you'll put stuff out there and people will challenge it, and you go, "Let's talk about it." Um, because that's, that's solid discourse. Like, and that's- Yeah ... important because you're exactly right.

Like nine outta 10 things could be really useful and helpful and valuable to me or organizations some way, but because of the one thing, I'm shutting you out. Yeah. Like, that's a pretty stupid mindset- Yeah. I agree ... quite frankly. So.

I agree. You know, it's funny, I, uh, so I, you know, my, uh, coaching program or consultancy or whatever you wanna call it, I'm not sure how to properly frame what I'm doing yet, but, uh, it's, it's launched focus is going to be on the inbound side of the business. That's what I do best. Yeah. I'm not, you know, I can speak on all the other aspects of running an agency, but the part that I think I know better than anybody is inbound, is how to build a foundational structure around the inbound side of your marketing and, and sales program.

And I posted recently, uh, a little clip from a, from a solo show that I did, um, which you can listen to the full thing in the podcast somewhere. I'm not exactly sure which episode it was. But, um, around how I believe when it comes to inbound specifically, just inbound. We're not talking about outbound, we're not talking about necessarily even referrals. Mm-hmm.

When it comes to someone who has filled out a form or calls your agency, uh, cold, right? They don't, you don't know them. They've watched your content or whatever. That when that person reaches out to you, your primary objective is to solve the problem with which they call. Not to round out their account, not to do some huge deep dive on all the other things you could possibly sell them, not to pontificate about why your agency is the best and your experience and legacy into a...

It is just to solve their problem. Then you come back around and you do all the things you need to do to make them, to maximize the lifetime value of that client. But that, that was essentially what I said. Uh, and man, did I get some pushback on that particular issue, right? Everyone's like, "Blah, blah."

You know, and this is, you know, this is what I love. And, and, and, and I love this because I view this partially as, um, I think it's a legacy mindset, and partially I think it's ego, and I'm sure some of it is also based on results. Mm-hmm. But I see the first two, I wanna make sure that when people push back on me on this particular viewpoint, and I want your take on this. I'm, I'm just setting it up for you.

But I wanna make sure that when you push back on me- Yeah ... on this particular issue, that it is not reasons one or two, that it's reason three. If it's reason three, right? That, that you have found that with the highest conversion rate, the highest retention rate, and, and the largest lifetime value is based on going through an hour-long sales process when someone calls in cold, then I will take that as feedback. But if what you're saying is, "We're, we're risk managers," or, "We're value creators," or, "We're relationship based," and that's why you're doing it, that's your fucking ego. That is not real, because there is nobody in this space that I, that I, I would love to have someone come at me who has as much inbound experience as I have in terms of taking calls, listening to calls, coaching people on inbound.

I don't think there's anybody else in this space that has as much experience as I do. So with that said, what is your take on this, and how do you approach it, you know, if you were coaching somebody, how would you approach this? Like, how would you talk them through this? Where, where do you stand on this particular issue? Well, my first response, I have to go and watch and, and see the comments 'cause I don't, I don't have the, the full context.

Yeah. So I don't say that to protect myself, but I just say it 'cause I really don't know. Um- Nope ... but, but I, I think here's, here's where I'm at, like, on this. And again, I just, just from what I know and what you said there, which is probably a small sample size of stuff, um, here's what I know. It's an example we talked about earlier.

I know that I'm not a inbound specialist, so my first response is, is if I've taken more reps than you in this area, maybe we can have dialogue and maybe I can really tell you, "I think this is what I think." Um, otherwise I'm talking with just, I don't know, philosophies that seem right, uh- Yeah ... but I haven't lived out. So my first step is I, I wouldn't challenge you there on that because I don't know enough to challenge you. Other things I might, but that one I wouldn't, right? Yeah.

Here's the other thing. I would just say overall of this, and again, this maybe is just, just an approach in, in sales- But to me, again, you, we've, we've talked about this before, I mean, this isn't new to you. Like, selling is, it's just to transfer an idea and it, it, of a concept. It's, it's moving something along. And so all I wrote down as you said that is I think there is similarities even if, if, if I was having a sit down meeting with someone who didn't know me, is I'm not trying to sell the whole thing, I'm trying to sell the next thing.

And, and what I mean by that, I guess if I'm relating to what you're saying, Ryan, is if there is a problem, that's the next thing. That's where they're at. And the other part about it is people don't buy or care about you, they buy and care for them. So I, I would certainly agree with you in the fact that if I came in and be like, "This is my issue, this is my issue, this is my issue," and you kept talking about something else, I would be annoyed pretty quickly, right? Yeah.

Um, so I don't know if that, that goes along with what you're saying, but I just... M- my, my biggest thing is after this today I'm gonna go watch your video and then I'll give you more context. How's that? Yeah. Yeah.

And, and it's funny, I obviously... I'm, I'm cherry picking one thing that I've said, uh, because, one, I know that I'm right, and two, that, um, uh, I just got... I was surprised at how much pushback I got. People are like, "No. You know, when someone calls, we, we risk, we're..."

So, so I thought the inter- the interesting part about it was the mindset that solving the problem they had... So there was a couple interesting... So the, so here were, here was the major pushbacks, right? Okay. The, and again, I'm just talking through this as a way to think through any problem, 'cause I love your thoughts, right?

Sell the next thing. I think, I think that's a really interesting way to think through it, and I'm gonna have, have to put some thought into that saying, 'cause I, I like that quite a bit. So one of the pieces of pushback I got was, uh, monoline clients are less profitable, okay? Mm-hmm. So fair, and statistically accurate, and 100% agree unless you are a coverage specialist, right?

Like, let's say you're a workers' comp specialist, et cetera, I, that, that would be the exception. I'm not taking that exception. I'm saying I agree that monoline clients are less, tend to be less profitable and retain at a lower level. What's up, guys? Sorry to take you away from the episode, but as you know, we do not run ads on this show, and in exchange for that, I need your help.

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I love you for listening to this show, and I hope you enjoy listening as much as I do creating the show for you. All right, I'm out of here. Peace. Let's get back to the episode. However, what I think is interesting, and again, this is why I love approach, this is why I love attacking the first two reasons, traditional legacy thinking and/or ego, and not real results.

Mm-hmm. Because real results would tell you, yes, if you only solve their immediate problem and never cross-sell, upsell, et cetera, then the, then these individuals are 100% right that based on real results and statistics, that that monoline account is gonna be less profitable and not retain and, and what they're saying is accurate. However, they're operating under the assumption that you don't have a system or process in place through either onboarding or through your retention team to make sure that that account is properly rounded out, that you're asking for reviews, for referrals, et cetera, and all the other things that could possibly come with it, which, which has to be part of the process. Um, so that's the one pushback. The other pushback is that somehow, and this speaks to legacy thought process that I just, my core, like, just I cannot help but fight, I've been fighting it since basically the day I joined this industry, is that somehow only solving their immediate problem is not being a true trusted advisor or risk manager.

And to that, that is the one... So the first one I can understand, and I certainly can listen to. The you are not being you are somehow not doing your job properly, or you're not, like, of a quality, right? There's like this aristocracy to this- Mm ... to this, the way that these comments come across of like, "Look at me, I'm a, I'm a trusted advisor because I round out accounts," uh, you know, or we use education or whatever the fuck, you know? I'm like, ah, yeah.

But that's you. That's ego talking, in my opinion. That's not a customer. 'Cause, and this is where I feel like our industry, and this is, this is where, like, I'm, I'm really interested in your take on this. Mm. I feel like we don't put ourselves in the customer experience enough when we think through how we operate.

I feel like we think about how we like to provide our product to our customers, right? Like, what's my preferred way of helping Brent and his family or his company, et cetera. But what we don't think through is what if I were Brent coming to my agency, right? Because I just feel like a lot of the way we position our business is how we like to do business, and we do not think through How our customers want to be served, if that makes sense. One, do you agree with that?

And two, how do, how do you address that with people? How do you think you start to help people better understand the experience that they're providing, not just what they want to do? And do you even think that's important? I think you asked me, like, seven questions there. I'm gonna do- I did, yeah.

Pick whichever one you want. I, well, no, I- I'm not very good at... Even though I've been doing this for a long time, Brent- No, it's- ... I'm still not very good at it ... I'm, I'm just giving you a hard time.

I, I... But there's a lot there. So, um, and I was trying to think of how to unpack some of that. Yeah, yeah. Because I think, and I think in most ways, I, I understand and, and, and hear your frustrations and agree with your process.

And then I guess I want, I've got some sub-points in my mind here. Yes, please. Like, so to me, let me start off with this. Um, and we talk s- so often about what is your business model? Because to me it all comes back to, like, your philosophy and your model.

So first of all, my answer of, like, should you do this or this, well, I would say, "Well, it depends. What do you want your business model to be? What does it look like?" Yeah. Um, I think that's where I think sometimes people get, get in a little bit of trouble because they think there's just this one way.

Well, you know, you work with independent insurance agencies. You've been part of that. We know how many thousands there are. I always tell an independent insurance agency, "The best thing is that you're independent. Do what you want."

Yeah. The hardest thing is you're independent. You can do what you want. Like, that's, that's the crux, right? Yeah.

So now, now how do we put this together? Well, I think going back to your question of, like, and your two, your two points, to me, I go back to sell the next thing. What is the purpose of this conversation? Like, where are we at? And whether it's an inbound or if I was having an initial meeting, now maybe there was more qualification up front.

But you're talking about inbound, that's different. But, like, just if I'm having an initial conversation, the first question is, okay, is this the right person to be talking to? Inbound, maybe you don't have as much control of that to some degree, right? Yeah. Depending what they read or saw.

It's very true. Um, here's some stuff that we, we start off with. Like, if I was having a conversation, "Hey, Ryan, what's frustrating you the most right now?" Yeah. That has nothing to do with my business model.

That's me just getting to know you as a human and what's on your mind. Because every person, this is cliche, it's been around a billion years, everyone listens to the same radio station, WIIFM, what's in it for me? That's all I care about. So I 100% agree that if, if, if I would have a conversation with someone, the first thing is, "Let me tell you about our process and our model and why we're great," well, I don't know that I care. Yep.

Now here- now here's the caveat to this. I also think if I was having a conversation, and I'll put this in insurance context, and, and again, we know that price and coverage is important, but we also know there's a greater depth. That's where you get into your risk management trusted advisor stuff. If after a number of questions, here's my problem, here's my frustration, here's my challenges, and it comes back to things that don't fit our business model or where we really help and add value to clients, I would say, "Hey, Ryan," or whoever that is, "I really appreciate where you're coming from in our conversation. I don't know that we're a good fit moving forward."

Yeah. Like, not everyone has to fit my model. I think that's a tremendous point. That, what you just said there is a really tremendous point, is that, um, and just to pin that before we move on, I think it's very important, and I hope that I never come across this way, which I may, to say that I think everyone who reaches out to us, we should try to help. Because there are most certainly going to be people who reach out to us cold who just, as you've said, just we are not gonna be the best solution for them.

And, and put we as in whoever that, whoever you are. Like, your agency is gonna serve, serve some people really well, some people you can serve but might not be the best for, and there are other people who are there are absolutely better solutions- Right ... and we have to be able to say no to them. I, I just want to clear that up 'cause I have had people mention that, and I want to make sure people who are listening know that I do- I'm not advocating for you have to try to help everyone who reaches out. There are absolutely gonna be people who, as Brent is saying, very, very accurately and succinctly, that, uh, you, you shouldn't try to help 'cause you're, you're not the best solution for them or they don't fit your model. So, uh, awesome.

I love that point. Yeah, it's just, I mean, we always say this too, your, your current business model is perfectly designed for you to get the results you're currently getting. And just think about that for a second. Your current business model is perfectly designed for you to get the results you're getting. When I say, "If you don't like your results, look at your model."

So it comes back to that to a degree, and then of course there's, there's questions and fine-tunements after that. But I mean, over our, our overall approach, and again this is, this is a very simplistic term over a larger issue, but, like, you do stuff right and you're asking relevant and right questions. And again, as you're qualifying, in my perfect world, you're helping to design a program. You're asking questions, design something that they're gonna eventually buy from you. And it's gonna look a little bit different for everybody, um, uh, because it comes back to, like, what's your model?

Yeah. I don't, I don't know what it is. And people, people say, "Well, I don't really have a business model." I go, "Yes, you do. Your results are your business model."

Anyway. Yeah. I'll leave it at that. It's kind of like, uh, you know, what's that saying? Um, whether you believe you can or you can't, you're right.

Right. It's the same thing with your model. Whether you believe you have a model or you don't- Yeah ... you do. You know, you know, like- Yeah, and- You do have a model ... and maybe this will go... I, I did- I, I didn't watch the whole thing either, so I apologize, but I saw s- part of, I know there was some stuff you talked about.

I think, didn't you done some about, like, niche and, you know, like- Yeah, yeah. We're doing, uh, riches in the niches wrong. Yeah. Yeah, and, and, like, and part of this k- kind of, and again, I didn't, I haven't taken forever to go, "Okay, let me really unpack this," but my initial thought on this is depends on your business model. Yeah.

Like, w- what do you want? And again, talk, and I know there's subset, we could probably go down a rabbit hole here, but, like, you know, the idea of niches, it could be certain areas of niche. I've seen producers be really successful, and we believe this. I think the better word is specialize, and specialize is part of your model. Here's how we specialize.

It may be different. And again, maybe it's just- Just words. Um- Yeah, there could be some semantics in there. I get it, 100% But, but, but I think, I think the bigger thing is knowing and owning your approach, and then from there being able to create the system that either- Yeah ... allows people in or says, "Hey, it's not," and be good with that 'cause we own who we are. Yeah, that was another good one.

Um, I mean, I, I could have just like burped into the camera for a half hour with that title, and I knew the title would do well just 'cause that's just like, that is, that is like create conversation gold in that title. But the whole- the whole thought process behind that video was not that having a niche is wrong, which is- Mm-hmm ... I found I could tell where people stopped watching, and this is not saying anything about you, this is others, based on where they reached out to me. Because if they reached out and they're like, "Rah, rah, rah, rah, rah," then I was like, "Then you didn't watch the whole thing." 'Cause essentially what I, the case that I made, I was being inflammatory on purpose 'cause I wanted... 'Cause oftentimes if you can evoke emotion, people will spend, will- Yeah ... will have a, a greater chance of actually taking in the message, right? So purposefully evoking some emotion to the idea that I think the part of the conversation that we miss around niche marketing is mindset, right?

We think, I write, you know, uh, uh, cold storage warehouses. That's what I write. That's my specialty. I have this market, and that's tremendous and I think it's phenomenal. And it is a great way to put revenue on the books and be a specialist and all that.

But the part that we miss, in my opinion, is the mind. Just because a business owner, just because, like, someone owns a cold storage business does not mean that their mindset aligns with how you wanna operate and the type of customer that you wanna have. Yeah. And my, what I was trying to convey is that, is that you can... I actually, particularly, again, always coming back to the idea that my specialty is inbound marketing.

Mm-hmm. I actually believe that a better way to do inbound marketing is mindset oriented versus industry class oriented. Inbound. If you're cold calling, et cetera, different. But when it comes to inbound, I would rather have a broader set of industry classes, but with a mindset that mirrors my value structure and the va- and what I wanna bring to them, versus I'm gonna try to market to a specific class of business and then have them bounce off my agency because our mindsets don't align.

That, that was where I was trying to go with that, if that makes sense. No, it, it, it does and it reminded me of something, and this is something we talked to, to our agencies about. This is something that we've talked internally at Sitkins about. Because, you know, and this is the idea I think some of what you're talking about is the difference between demographics and psychographics. Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. Right? And we, but, I mean, the, we- we've talked about that as an organization. Yes, we have some demographical trends of agencies we work with that relate to really well.

However, it's definitely more important with the psychographics and how do they view the world, how do they see things, how do they think, how do they approach issues and solutions? I could talk to a president of an agency that's 50 million in revenue and one that's 500,000 in revenue, and there are some significant differences, to say the least, but I could probably tell in two minutes is this someone that we click and connect with in how they view and think about things. So I think there's great substance in what you're saying. I don't think this is, and maybe you're already saying this, this doesn't always have to be, this is goes back even earlier conversations, like, "Well, if it's not this, it's nothing." This is not an, an either/or.

It's probably- Yeah ... a both/and. Yes. Yeah- Right? ... I think you're right. So anyway.

Also, trial and error. Like, you know, one of the things that I think people don't realize about all the crazy shit that I say is that I test all this stuff. Like, you know, that's one of the things that a lot of people when they disagree with what I'm saying, this is not theory. And if it is theory, I'll usually tell people that it's an untested thought that I'm having, right? Like I've, you know, and I'll try to make that very clear, that this is something I'm kicking around in my head, but I haven't really had a chance to put this into the market yet.

Right. But most of the stuff, and I know this is true for you, and I, and, you know, is that it's very much tested, either through your own work, your own experience, or through clients, coaching clients, et cetera, that you've worked with. You've seen these things in market and watched the feedback because, you know, I'll tell you, there are also certain classes of business, um, or, sorry, certain industry classes where mindset's not as important. Mm-hmm. It's just not, right?

There's certain size businesses where mindset's not as important. There's certain lines of business where their mindset towards that line of business is literally the only thing that's gonna sell the policy. A, a, and a good example of that for me is cyber. Mm-hmm. If you market cyber hard and you are not taking into account psychographics, you will absolutely get dashed across the rocks.

Your cost of acquisition will go through the roof, in my opinion. Because people right now, my belief based on the results that we had at Rogue Risk, in particular- Mm-hmm ... with cyber, was if you believed in it, we could sell you what you needed at a, with a great company, at a competitive price, with the coverages that you needed, we could get it in place. If we were trying to force it on you or you thought it was BS or you thought you were too small, we, it would, there was no way we were getting that policy in, in. Because you're just like, "We don't need it. That," you know, and if we did, they would cancel it the next year.

It'd be the first thing to go, or they'd constantly beating, beat us up about it. And it's like, that's a policy that for whatever reason right now, it's just not in the consciousness of business owners that even though every insurance professional in the world says this could be one of the most important policies you have, most c- consumers either believe it or they don't believe it. And it's just, and then, then the question becomes- For, for E&O purposes, you certainly wanna offer it, but from a business opportunity standpoint, how much time do you wanna waste and how much leverage and trust, uh, like if there were, if trust was a meter, how much of your trust meter do you wanna waste pushing this policy on them versus maybe something else? And, and I think those are real things that we have to consider, you know? When we're marketing certain products.

You know, there's just certain products, like worker's comp. If I have an employee, I know I need it. You know what I mean? So it's like there's a completely different mindset around it. Um, same thing surprisingly with, that I've found with like E&O and professional.

Like, if people feel... If people are in a class that even closely traditionally has, you know, a professional characteristic to it, they kinda know they need it. And, you know, maybe you gotta massage them a little and talk about it. Marketing professionals tend to fight it a little more, et cetera. But like, but for the most part, you can get them into a good policy.

But man, cyber, they don't think they need it. Oh my God, they'll take out a knife and f- and fight you if you go sell it to them. It- there's a l- now, you, I hear you. And, and like, um, this is something my mom said when I was little, and I didn't get it. You know, those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still.

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And, and, and right, we kinda know that. But I mean, to your point, Ryan, like I'm not gonna beat you over the head with it a million times because it's not gonna change how you view it, right? It's, it's, it's, it's your viewpoint.

And I think the other thing you said there that I think would be interesting, um, I found very interesting about like I've done it, it's practical, right? And some things that aren't. But it, and, and there's an evolution to that. There are a lot of things that I go, "I think this would work." And then you do it, and you go, "Okay, this part works, this part doesn't."

Yeah. Right? And I go back to what works, and you modify and fine-tune that, right? And you continue to go deeper in this. Um, and then this comes back to something I heard from a mentor a few years back.

He's like, "Ryan, you can't improve a result till you get one." Yeah. You know, like- Did anyone tell you you have like the best ditties? You got all the best ditties. The, the radio station one, and the sell the next...

Your, your ditties, you got the best like little one-liners. I love them. I, it's, I, yeah. I'm, you know, maybe I... It's the world of, of Twitter X.

You gotta talk yourself. Yeah. Yeah. No. No, I don't know.

I talk a lot, right? It's one of the things about me. No, I love it. That, that was not a knock. That was a- No, I know ... that was a, that was a envious, that was an envious comment.

Uh, uh, uh, I, I love it. I think it, it helped. Honestly, I think, I think it is a, um, a sign of a good communicator because where I ha- take 10,000 words to say something that should be said in seven, you're able to say it in nine, and that seems a lot more, uh, a lot easier to remember these things. Um, so no, that, that was a compliment. I meant that as a compliment.

I, I know, and I'm just giving you, I get- Well, but I, I, it's one of those. And it is. Like, this is... You know, I'm going off of, 'cause you said communication, so I'm gonna go there 'cause that's what I live. Yeah, go.

Um, it's, you know, I, I heard this from, from John Maxwell, and I love it. Like, keep the cookies on the bottom shelf. Like, and people will, will be like, "Well, that's, that's really simple." It is, and guess what? It's memorable, and it's actionable.

I don't, like, you know, the, the analogy is, I mean, and, and maybe you've had this. I've had this. I've told this to, to audiences or if I'm working with a group. Like, have you ever had a teacher or professor that their goal when they teach and talk to you is to show you how smart they are? Yes.

And, and how did that, how, how connected were you with them? Not at all, right? Or have someone else say, "I really want to be with you," right? And in communication, it's everything from like, "I'm not here and you're not here. We're here together.

We're having a real authentic conversation together." Yes, I may be the expert in a certain area, right? Or whatever it is as a teacher, but my biggest goal is to transfer it to you, and no matter how much I have here, if this doesn't go to you, it's worthless. And I think this is true for insurance producers and agencies as well, right? Yeah.

Like, this idea of the techno babble and all of this. And yeah, you gotta know that, but if someone doesn't relate to it, if they don't understand it, if it doesn't, if there's not some form of, of even the rapport, the relationship built into it, there's a lot of different ways of that. It's just a bunch of stuff that makes you feel good and smart that does nothing. So anyway- Let me ask you- Yeah. Can I ask you a question about something you just said?

Yeah. Um, the techno babble piece you said, yeah, you have to know that. Do you actually have to know it? And, and that, and that, that, that's an honest question. Like, I guess, and let me frame it just a little bit differently- Yeah, that's fair ... than, than is how much do you actually need to know, um, to be a, a, a valuable- Yeah ... producer, not, not just to your agency, but to, but to the client that you're serving as well?

Like, how much do you actually need to know? You and I both, and we used to talk about this all the time back in the day, you and I both went very deep on coverage. We could talk about coverage, you know- Yeah ... CIC reading the manual. Yep.

Okay. So, so I've been there, done that, and- Yep ... and I know it has value. But I've always asked myself, is it better to be someone who is very good at understanding your customer, communicating with them, relating to them, getting to their problem? And maybe you're, if you had to be, a little lighter on coverage and et cetera, or is it better to be that hardcore, "Man, I can figure it out every potential pitfall in this policy," et cetera. Like, where do you fall in there if you, if you had to pick?

So I'm gonna... It's a really good question, and I don't wanna go, "It depends," but man, it really does. 'Cause I, I mean, I've seen, I've seen producers on side of this. I will say this, though, with, with pretty clear conviction, some of the most successful producers, they certainly understand the concepts, right? 'Cause you gotta understand enough to ask really good questions. Yeah, yeah. But like, as far as going like really deep, it, it goes back to what we said earlier.

Most of these, and some of these a- with these agencies, they've got people around them. That's their unique ability. It's what they love to do. Yeah. Let me take this and really start diagnosing stuff, right?

And of course you've got underwriters and things that, I mean, they s- that's what they do. But what I'm really good at is learning the most about you, right? Being able to ask the right questions at the right time, to be 100%- Yeah ... present in the conversation. And yes, it's relatability. Yes, it's rapport.

All those things, oh, that's... And those things are crucial. Yeah. Um, and I do think that, and again, I'm not just throwing out numbers, but I mean, I think of producers who are two, three, 4 million in their own personal book of commission, not premium. And I ask them a lot of questions 'cause I'm curious, like, "How'd you do that?

That's pretty impressive." And it was interesting, like one of my, uh, guy's been with us for a long time and super smart and funny, he's got a lot, just great guy. But I sat there in a room with him and he was up to about a $4 million book of business and I said, I, "What's the one thing?" There's never one thing, but what's the one? He goes, "From very early on stage, I've always considered myself a business consultant or advisor and never an insurance agent."

Yeah. Like, all, all I think to myself is how can I help you move your business forward? And it actually comes back to kind of what you said earlier a little bit, right? Like, what they say may not be where you're at or where you want to go, but I'm gonna start with it. You know, like, my one goal is how can I help you move your business forward?

At some point, we may get to some of the stuff that'll do that. And by the way, he has a team that helps him with most of that. Yeah. So- I, I- Long-winded answer ... no, I think you're right, dude. I, um, I think that when we gave up or was taken away from us, however you want to position it, the idea of being frontline underwriters, we can pretend to be frontline underwriters, and really, I think we should take a mindset- Yeah ... of being a frontline underwriter to a certain extent.

I do advocate for that, so I'm not, I'm not trying to poo-poo it. But, but technically we're really not anymore. Mm-hmm. Uh, in most cases. There are some unique contract situations with certain carriers where I'm sure that's the case, but in most scenarios, we are no longer the frontline underwriters that we were 30 or 40 years ago.

When that was, when that, when that dynamic of our position was, we'll just say diminished, maybe not removed, but diminished, I believe we went from being true underwriters and needing to know, you know, how, how far a step could be from the ground before it needed a handrail, and what would happen if this overhang wasn't, you know, whatever, you know, the, the, those dynamics, to now we can lean on our underwriters or subject matter experts inside a larger agency if we have them, in exchange for what you just described, which I think is absolutely the more productive way to be, not just from a business revenue standpoint, but from a value to client standpoint, which is that, that consultant, that advisor. I don't love the term trusted advisor, but I do think, uh, a consultative approach- Yeah ... a relationship approach, a relationship-based approach is absolutely the way to go, and it's, and it's why I advocate on inbound, because you're not gonna have as much frontline relationship building, right? That- Sure ... you know, and our process is really, what we've done with our inbound process is kind of flipped it on its head, is we've made information gathering last instead of first, which is the way 95% of the agencies do it.

Sure. And the whole concept is what you just described, is how do we become a business consultant for you? And if your problem is workers' comp today, even if we write and we write commercial auto and cyber and all these other things- Yeah ... if your problem is comp, I want to solve that problem for you today so you don't make another phone call or have to make another phone call, right? And I think then extended to whether you're selling on BARs or you're doing, you know, prospecting or you're a networker or what- whatever you are, I, I think you've def- I think you've defined a, a much more productive way for us to write business, is, is that consultative relationship building approach. And, and however it works for you, because I don't think over-indexing on the nerdiness of our industry pays the dividends that it once did.

That doesn't mean it's valueless. It doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, and I'm not advocating people don't get designations or whatever. I had my CIC, and to be honest with you, I wish I still did. That- Mm-hmm ... and I'm very honestly, that's very honest. But I just don't know that it pays the same dividends that it did in the, in the past.

Well, um, as you're saying that, it came to my mind, like, I mean, again, this is, this seems like Communication 101, but it comes back to like are we asking enough questions? Like as simple as that is, I mean, you go, "I'm looking for work comp." Well, most people, "Okay, great. Good. We've got so much great work comp stuff.

Let me tell you about it." Yeah. Versus just taking a step back and go, "Well, tell me more about that." Like, you know- Yeah ... again, and just getting to know, right? And just, I'm not saying go forever, but just ask a few.

And certainly you can do some of these things online as well. But I think that the, the, the challenge of this, and I tell some of this story, like you, in our programs, you need to be able to know your stuff. Like you should be a professional and learn and be educated and all those things. But I think what gets missed is there's a difference between insurance knowledge and business acumen. And they're both important, but what happens sometimes, and maybe it's not so much like one or the other, but like obviously the more knowledge you get in insurance, the more that you think there's a level of assumption and arrogance that can happen many times in conversations, right?

"I know more than you. I don't say that, but I'm, I know more than you, so here's what you need to do." Versus really understanding the fact that it's not about what I know, it's about your impact. Like th- th- there's a difference. So like taking, the more that you know, what typically happens is now I know more, so I can tell you more.

The great ones say, "Now I know more, so I can ask even better questions." Yeah, I love that. Like that's, that's a big nuance I think people miss. Yeah. Because it's easy when you know more, 'cause you do.

Like you're, "Oh, I-" I learned this thing. I went to a cyber class. Let me tell you all about cyber. Yeah. Versus what the thinking should be is, I went to cyber class, I've now unpacked two or three different ways of thinking or questions that I should be asking that I haven't been.

Yeah. Y- you know, it's funny, I was talking to a coaching client the other day, and, uh, I may have even shared some of this on the podcast before. If I have, I apologize to the listeners. But, um, we were talking through this process of questioning inbound leads, 'cause I do think, m- my experience has been that questioning a cold inbound lead, meaning a lead that has reached out to you that you don't know, versus someone you've prospected or networked or been referred is- is just different. And I said, um, "Are you asking them why they didn't call their current agent?"

So the, so the, the idea was if someone calls for worker's comp, they most likely already have a BOP with a current agent or whatever, and, and I, you know, if someone calls and they're asking for a policy, that usually isn't the first policy that someone buys, uh, commercial auto, comp, et cetera, then I'll usually follow up with, "Awesome. We would love to work with you. You know, just how come you didn't reach out to your current agent?" Mm-hmm. And they're like, "You would ask them that?"

Like, you know, "Well, why would you..." You know, and, and it was funny, you know, they weren't, the, the, the idea was more like they didn't feel like they were allowed to ask them that- Yeah ... question. Yeah. And I was like, "You can... We wanna ask all the- We wanna get to know them, right?"

Yeah. Like, they could tell you that, they could tell you a whole bunch of things. They could tell you that their current agent, they can't stand their current agent. Mm-hmm. And that even though today they just need comp from you, really, they can't wait to get everything away.

They could tell you that they went direct and they're unhappy with direct 'cause they don't have a great relationship, and again, they don't wanna solve that problem today, but they wanna get this from someone they can work with. They could tell you that their current agent is their brother, and they're really just trying to get a quote to hold him accountable so they can give him shit at Thanksgiving. And like, you know, and, and again, it goes back to the more confident we are in what we know about policies, the more confident we are in ourselves as professionals- Yep ... the better questions we can ask, and those questions, if asked, and I think, you know, this is, this is, comes with experience and training, the more we can ask open-ended questions and, and then, and then turn our ears on, right? Instead of question what's the next question I need to ask, it's question open your ears and, and listen to what they actually say because you could get all the answers you need, you know? Yeah.

And that's what we try to teach is, like, ask open-ended questions and they, and they will literally give you the keys to the sale. Mm. Um, that, but it just, I think a lot of that comes from just confidence. If we're not thinking about, "Oh my God, what's the next question I have to ask to get the right information to quote?" Because we own that, right?

We've gone deep enough to own that, then we can really, we can allow ourselves to, to, to ask some of these more open-ended questions that we get real answers from. If that makes sense. Does that, does that make sense to you? No, I mean, listen, I'm 100% on board with open-ended questions. We, we teach whole sessions around it.

People just think they're naturally good at it, but they're not. I mean, I mean, listen, 'cause you'll get the, "Oh, I, you know..." I mean, "This, I, I know." I know you know, but, like, do you really work on it? 'Cause there is a skill and an art to it, and the best- Yeah ... are really good at it. Like, I'll give you a really simple, quick analogy, and I say this in our programs all the time.

If you go to a, a, a, a restaurant with a server, right? So taking your order and that whole deal, right? At the end of most meals, the good ones say something like this: "Mr. Haley, how was everything today?" Which you're going to say, "Good," "Great," "Fine."

They checked a box. They asked a question. They did what they were supposed to do, right? One nuance to this is coming over and going, "Mr. Haley, hope you had a great dining experience tonight.

What's the one thing that I or we could have done to make this even a better experience for you?" Yeah. Like, you have to answer that question now. You have just, like, the human brain's like, "Oh, well, I guess the rolls were kind of hard." Yeah.

Oh, interesting. Like, like, now you've got more information than that, and just imagine compounding those things. Like- Yeah ... it, it's, again, it's, it, it's fine-tune and it isn't that complicated, but most people don't do it 'cause they overlook it. Yeah. There's a question that I taught every one of our producers at Rogue that they hated to ask.

I don't know why, but they hated. And when they started to pick it up and started to become more comfortable with it, they, I would inevitably get a Slack message like, "Wow, screw you," you know, "This actually does work," or whatever, you know, grumble, grumble. Sure. Um, which was simply, before you hang up the phone, no matter what was going on, before you hang up the phone, you ask them, "What would make your relationship with us a s- success?" Just that simple question.

Just, "Hey," just, you know, I would just, "Hey, before, before I let you go, just, you know, I just like to ask this because-" Mm-hmm ... "you know, it just, just lets me, you know, I wanna do what's right by you. What, what would make this relationship a success for you?" Mm. And some people would have nothing to say.

Some people would say, "Hey, just do what I told you," you know, whatever they said, you know, "Hey, I just need this." Mm. And some people go, "You know, man, I just wanna be able to, like, text you and have you get back to me." And you just literally got the keys. Yeah.

The key, the tumbler key to everything that you need to s- You don't, you could shovel a bag of insurance shit onto them, and if you at the end can go, "But you know what? You can text me anytime at this number and I'll make sure I get back to you with an answer-" Yeah ... they're gonna buy from you. And it's like simple, simple things like that that you just can build into your process and make part of your routine that I believe change the entire experience for people. 'Cause not only, and, and I know we're at the number I wanna, um, uh- Mm ... finish up here, but I, what I believe open-ended questions do personally- Mm-hmm ... and I know you teach them. I knew you were on board. It was kind of like a softball I wanted you to knock out of the park there.

But, um- I believe that when you ask open-ended questions, and this goes for your spouse, your kids- Mm-hmm ... your friends, anybody in your life. When you ask open-ended questions, no matter what the question is, people immediately feel heard. Yeah. They immediately feel like you care, and they feel heard because now they're like, "I don't-- I'm not being forced to answer yes, no, or 1, 2, 3, or tomorrow, or whatever. I get to tell you what's going on in my brain."

And so f- we have so few opportunities to honestly share what's going on with us, that- Yeah ... when someone asks us that kind of question, we're like, "I love this guy. I lo- I love her. She's the best." You know what I mean? 'Cause she, you know, and all you did was ask a simple open-ended question. I, and I just think it's the most powerful tool we have in our tool belt.

Yeah. And, and again, I, I'll respect your time here. I'll just say just a couple thoughts on that. Yeah, please. Um, I do believe this.

I say this, I say this more with conviction than I ever have. I s- I believe in today's noisy, distracted world, and we all know it, right? We all, we all got one of these everywhere. The greatest gift you can give another human being is your complete time and attention. Yeah.

Like, above anything else. For 30 seconds, three minutes, or 30 minutes, whatever it is, like, I am with you, because I'll tell you, that is really not done in today's world. Yeah. And, and, and like, this goes back to Dale Carnegie, right? So this isn't- Yeah ... a new thing from him.

But this idea of like when he said, "To be interesting, be interested." 100%, yeah. Like, I, don't complicate it. Like, and I, I have to... I'm laughing 'cause the open-ended questions, like, these are things you said with your spouse or whatever.

Like, I play these games with my kids. I have three, well, my oldest daughter's not a teenager. She's 20 now. But I've, I've basically three teenage daughters. They don't like to say much, but when you actually get smart, and again, this is, I don't always do this, but, like, ask little nuanced question, it's funny just to see how the human brain works.

Like, most people at the end of the day, "How was your day at school?" "Fine. Fine." Yeah. "Oh, good.

Fine. Fine. I don't know. I don't know. Fine."

And like, I know this is so stupid, but I've done stuff where I've been like, they just sit there, I look at them and I go, "What's the weirdest thing you smelled today?" Yeah. Y- dude, I love that. I asked my kid the other day, I go, "What's the, what's the stupidest thing your teacher said today?" And then, you know, and then ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba.

You know, and it was like, you know, it's so good, you know? What was- I'm trying- ... the funny, what was the weirdest thing they said the other day? I'm trying to remember. Something in the lunch or whatever. But what's funny is like they look at, I mean, that's a pretty weird question, right?

Yeah, yeah. And they'll look at you like, like you're an idiot, right? Which they do a lot anyway, 'cause I'm their dad and they're teenage daughters. Yeah. But they'll look at me and they'll be like...

And then they kinda stop. But again, the human brain's going, they're starting to think, and they go, "I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was like, yeah, there was something weird that burned in the, in the cafeteria today. It was awful." I'm like, "Oh, tell me about that." "Well, I think it was popcorn."

And like all of a sudden you'll be like- Yeah ... I just started a conversation that never would've existed. Trick shot. You're talking to Dad. Gotcha.

Yeah. Yeah. Now they kind of, they kinda got me figured out now, but anyway. That's funny. Yeah.

I, uh, dude, I, I think, um, yeah, I love it. I, uh, uh, very last thing and then we'll go. We'll be respectful of everyone's time. I like to try to keep it to an hour. But, um, uh, so I'm, uh, well, I'm currently seeing a woman, but at the beginning of seeing her, and this is not the first time, um, that I've heard this, but like, uh, uh, went out on a date with her, the first date, you know, whatever.

We have a great time. I, I thought we had a great time. Okay, we go to see each other again, and we were at dinner and, uh, or she made me dinner. That's how I knew she was a winner. She, the second dinner was she actually made me dinner.

I was like, "This is awesome." Good start. Yeah. Um, yeah, it was a very good start. But, uh, she said, she said, "You know, um, you did something really funny during our first date."

And I was like, "Oh my God, what did I do?" Like, weird facial expression or said something. I, if you've listened to the show long enough, you know I probably don't even know what the it was that I did or said. Yeah. Um, and she goes, "You didn't look at your phone."

Hmm. And I go, "What do you mean?" And she's like, "You didn't look at your phone when we were at dinner." And I just go, "Well, I was with you. Why would I look at my phone?"

And she's like, "Yeah. That's not the way most dates go." And I'm like, "What do you mean?" She's like, "Guys will be scrolling through their phone during dinner." And I'm like, "That's fucking crazy."

Yeah. Because one, she's hot as shit, and I couldn't have- ... managed to not pay any attention to her, and she's a very funny and interesting person- Yeah ... and I really enjoy her. Yeah. But like, I was like, "Is that really what people do?" Like, they're on, you know, and it just went back to your point of like, to be interesting, be interested.

Like, I mean, I, I would like to believe that when I'm on these sh- with you, you feel like I, you have 100% of my attention, and, and I'd like to believe- Yeah ... that I do that, but I don't think I'm the best at it always, but you know, I'd like to believe that I do. I couldn't believe, and to her, it was such a positive quality in- Right ... in me as a potential partner, that like we could go two hours during dinner and I could not look at my phone, which I didn't. Right. And, uh, which I would never even think of doing, but like, you know, unless something was up or whatever. But like, then I, even then I would like excuse myself.

I'd say, "Hey, you know, my kids," or whatever, but like, it, it was just wild that, that, that was something that she pulled out, to your point, interesting is, uh, being interested, is like I didn't look at my phone during our first date. And I'm like, if that's the fucking bar, I'm gonna dominate the dating game, because that's crazy. No, I'm ki- I'm kidding. No, I mean, I, it's, that's, it's a really in- it's an interesting, interesting story. I mean, it really is to think about the world we live in, and we talk about it- Yeah ... but it's like, and, and by the way, I suck at it.

Like, you know what I mean? Like, I have to really be aware and cognizant of it, because I've got adult onset ADD with phones- Yeah ... and this and stuff, and like, and again, I got five kids. Yeah. Like, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo. And like, just to be like, "Nope, I'm here," um- Yeah ... is hard for me, but when I'm there, I love it.

And of course, the conversation is at a whole different level. Completely agree And, and get, and maybe it's 30 seconds. It's amazing, even 30 seconds. Like- Yes ... hey, for 30 seconds, like I'm whole totally with you 'cause we live in a world of not that. The, the last thing I'll say, and then let's go, is that don't give yourself a hard time if you feel distracted in a conversation.

I've found that even moments of pure attention in the course of a longer conversation can generate similar feelings than like, you know, I gave this woman, say, two hours of my full attention, right? But, but I think, let's say there was something else going on in my life and I, and I had moments where I did need to break from that. I think if in the moments that you're there, you're there. You know, don't give yourself too hard a time. Like it is, it is very difficult today.

I think, I mean, if you read, it was difficult for people back in the '20s, right? Yeah. In the, in the, in the 1800s. Yeah. In the 17- this is not something people...

I mean, I think today we have more distractions, but I do think this is something that people have dealt with their entire, you know, for the human history. But I think fi- as often as you can, try to be fully present and things will go well. And certainly in sales scenarios, if you can just be present 100% in a sales scenario, you will watch your conversion rate, the quality of the relationships, your close ratio go up. Brett, I love our conversations, man. Uh, appreciate the hell out of you.

Obviously, I respect and believe, uh, everything that you're coaching and teaching and, uh, everyone who works with the Sitkins Group is obviously blessed to, to be able to work with you. Where can people connect with you more, learn more about what you do and your programs and all that kind of stuff? Yeah, I mean, just our organization, just go to our website. We've, we've just revamped it, so it looks all clean and crisp. Yeah.

Hopefully simplified. But sitkins.com. And then as far as for me, the best place, I'm, I'm a, I'm a main LinkedIn guy. I know some people like it, some people don't. Go to LinkedIn and connect with me and put stuff out there, um, and have some conversations there as well.

So it was great. It was great catching up with you. I know it's been a while. Yeah. Awesome, bro.

Appreciate the hell out of you. Wish you nothing but the best. Take care. I'm going to Shabooms. Close twice as many deals by this time next week.

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