Jack Wingate on How to Maximize Your Personal Value

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From all of us at Believe, have a Merry Christmas, everyone, and a happy holiday. Merry Christmas, everyone, and a happy holiday season. Hello, and welcome back to the show. Today we have one of my absolute favorite people in the insurance industry. Someone who I kind of watched from afar for a while.

I had heard these tales. You know, as a northerner, you hear these tales of people from the south. And you don't know how true they are. And then you actually get to meet them. And you realize that they're amazing people who are doing incredible things.

And that is exactly the way that I think about Jack Wingate. I think a lot of people get caught up on the beard. And I actually make a little joke in the episode about it. Because so many of the episodes of podcasts that I've heard with Jack Wingate focus on, like, his look. Like, he's got this big-ass beard.

And it's baller as shit. Like, don't get me wrong. But, you know, that's not what makes Jack Wingate special. What makes him special is the way he thinks about what we do for a living. And I wanted to talk to him about that.

And it just – this is an incredible episode. I just am so happy to share this with you. Listen or don't listen. Love it or hate it. This is an episode that I personally loved.

I just loved this conversation. I just did. I just – it was one that I was looking forward to. I look forward to every conversation I can have with Jack and I think you're going to learn a lot if you take it in. Before we get there, I want to share with you two things.

One, if you're listening to this and you're not subscribed by email, please do. Go to – just type in ryanhanley.com into your phone or your computer and stick your email in and subscribe by email. Because you don't just get updates on new episodes, which you do. And if you're subscribed on iTunes or wherever, I get that you may not want the emails. But you get other pieces of content as they come out and they're super random.

Like I don't know when I'm going to write a LinkedIn article or I'm going to do a podcast with somebody else that I think is really baller like the one I shared with David Crothers the other day. So make sure you subscribe by email if you're really interested. Also – okay, so that's number one. Number two, I want to give a huge shout out to our newest sponsor, our latest sponsor of this show, which is Better Agency. So I just made the move from Agency Zoom to Better Agency.

I am incredibly excited about that move. I am absolutely in love with Better Agency. I just am. I just – I've had – everything about it makes sense to me. And Agency Zoom is a great product.

This is not about knocking Agency Zoom. I think Agency Zoom is a great product. I just love Better Agency. And I love in particular the way both William Shaw and Nick Ayers think. Just the way they think.

I mean I've talked about Nick Ayers, what, a thousand times on this show? Like Nick Ayers is part of Better Agency and I can see his thought process in all aspects of Better Agency. And it just – it works. I love it already. I've been using it for a week.

I've already gotten three new Google reviews. I've had text message conversations with clients that I wouldn't have had if I didn't have this tool. And I just love Better Agency. And the fact that, you know, I – that they then wanted to sponsor the show, you know, it's just amazing. And you can read into that whatever you want.

I love Better Agency. I think this is – I think this is a game-changing tool. I'm probably going to talk about it more. And if you're thinking about a CRM, I would give Better Agency a shot. Mostly because Billy Wagner uses it.

And if Billy Wagner uses the tool, then who are you to not use the tool, right? I mean come on now. All right. Let's get on to the show. Oh, dude.

I can tell you, like, right – what was it? When did we – I probably locked down, like, March 16th was, like, when I moved to the house. And I was, you know, making some videos. And I was like, man, that old Dell that I got for the business, you know, it's slow. And I don't like using my Mac because I've got limited, like, processor capacity.

So, like, dude, you know, editing in Adobe Premiere was just, like, taking forever. And so, I was like, dude, I had to – I bought, like, about two weeks in, I bought a new Lenovo, like, gaming computer just so I could have processor speed. I know. I – so, the last – when I worked for – when I worked for Trusted Choice, the last year that I was there, because I was creating so much video, I got, like, whatever the most badass Mac book pro you could get was. Like, the – just every feature pushed up to the top of the little slider thing online.

And, man, dude, I could put – I could put – I mean, I was producing 12 to 15-minute videos. It would pump those things out of Adobe Premiere in, like, 10 minutes. It was crazy. It was just, like – I watched that little dial just zip across the screen. Now, that same video today.

And that's with, like, max rendered depth, like, all the custom controls, like, VVR up to 40. So, like, you're talking, like – it's, like, this is, like, a notch below going to IMAX. You know what I mean? Like, the quality of those videos. And now, using this thing, you know, if it's not, like, 16-centimeter pixels on the screen, I did my computers locked up for an hour.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, I went from, like – again, you're talking 20, 30 minutes for a render. And, heaven forbid, you realize that you missed something and have to, like, change something and redo it. But, dude, now, this one – this computer – like, the video that I think is going live today – yeah, might already be there. I was at the lake this week and uploaded it from there.

So, we're, you know, in the middle of nowhere in North Carolina. And uploaded it on this computer, and it was, like, two minutes for an eight-minute video. And, again, max render depth, blah, blah, blah. But then, again, I don't put a lot of, you know, objects other than the video in there, which make a difference. Yeah, you don't – do you use – do you use, like, adjustment layers?

So, if the lighting's really bad, I'll use an adjustment layer. This one I did – this – I recorded, like, four videos before I left for the lake just because I'm getting – it's hard for me to produce the content. You know what I mean? Like, I – and it's not the making the video. It's, like, the editing.

So, I just went ahead and recorded four videos and said I'll just edit them one by one. So, this one I was like, I'm just going to see how it comes up when I publish it to see if I – because I don't do a ton of – like, I like to make the blacks a little blacker. Yeah. But this one I did nothing with because I thought the lighting was pretty decent. Yeah, have you ever messed with Lutz?

I know what they are, and I've watched – what is it, Peter McKinnon? Yeah. And I'm like, dude, there's some crazy stuff in there, but I'm like, I'm making an insurance video. So, I'll tell you, I have – so, look and feel – well, now, I'm not going to pull it up now. But, like, I have this Lutz pack that I can send you.

I think you dig it because the colors – one of them is called Viking Ham. And the coincidence of you looking like a Viking and be calling Viking Ham aside, like, what I like about it is it – you know, the way that they – so, basically, it's – they've edited the shot for you already. That's what I like about these. So, what it does is it, like, pulls the blacks out a little bit, it pulls the skin tones out a little bit, and then it darkens. It kind of vignettes you.

So, if you have, like, a center shot, like, if you're in the center of the shot or even, like, a little to the side or whatever, it gives you – it kind of focuses the person's attention on you. And I don't have to do any manual dialing. I just – as long as I shoot it and have, like, a decent amount of light on me as the subject, this LUT takes care of everything else. And it makes it look like you're a freaking guru, but really, you just, you know, toggled this one little thing. It's – I need that then, yeah.

Because, I mean, you know, I'm shooting now in the basement. Like, so, everyone, you see, like, the three pictures behind me. It's just – that's our basement. Yeah. I know, you know, and I also – I started doing, like, I put a video out yesterday where literally I just – I just leaned up against the table with my phone this way.

And then I use this stupid – you know how you get – I shouldn't say stupid because I use it all the time. But you know how, like, if you scroll – you know, once you get into doing anything with marketing, you look at any marketing tool online, you now have – your Instagram and Facebook feed are filled with, like, these little $60 tools, right? Yeah. $60 to do this, $60 to do that. Well, I – you ever hear of Splashio? Yeah.

Okay. So, Splashio is a great tool, but it costs, like, $95 a month to do four videos a month. No, no. Just bananas. So, I love what Splashio can do for you, and I love that it allows you to just upload the video and then, you know, automatic transcription with the – and, you know, in the – I love that.

But $95 a month for four videos is – is bonkers. I mean, that's just – for that stupid little thing, which you can do in Premiere Pro for less than $10 and really just not that much more time. But then I – so, one of those little tools comes through, and it's called Clipscribe, C-L-I-P-S-C-R-I-B-E, Clipscribe.com, I think. It's $60 lifetime. It does the same exact thing, and it's better.

So, my new thing is I just do these, like, raw videos. I upload them to this Clipscribe. It transcribes. It allows you to do the header. It allows you to do all the branding.

You can put your logo in there, and the transcription is pretty good. $60 one time. And for – in less than 10 minutes, I'm pumping these videos out, and it's so easy. Well, you know, I saw you when you were really pumping them out early on, like, what, May, whenever it was. Yeah. I think I asked you about it, and so I signed up for it, paid the whatever, trying to upload the first one, and it never went up.

Like, it shows that it's uploaded. It was just, like, spinning, and since then, I was like, oh, that's an effort, you know. Oh, man. That's – I got to get back in there. I would say that might have just been a wanky day because I used it all the time.

I used it yesterday, and I have slowed down on the content production a little bit because, obviously, when you're doing everything, you know, in the beginning, I didn't have any clients. So it was so easy to create content, but, you know. See, that's – you know, dude, that's the hard thing. Like, I was – like, I want to put out a video a week, and I want to put out – if I can, associate that with a blog a week. Yep.

We've been so freaking slammed, like, business-wise that, man, I just – I don't have the time, and then, you know, I'm working on, you know, we're freaking fine-tuning some automations, which, you know, it just takes time. And it's just like, okay, I don't have three hours or whatever it is to record, edit, you know, do – the latest thing is the thumbnails because now I'm just geeking out on thumbnails. Yeah, yeah. But it takes a while to, like, do it. And you got great thumbnails.

You know, I – so I have a – one mistake that I've always made as a marketer is that I do too much content production and not enough content promotion. So one of the things that I've been trying to do is say, like you said, produce one video and corresponding blog posts a week, okay? That's a reasonable goal. And what I would do in the past is I would produce a new piece of content literally every day. Just every day, a new piece of content, new piece of content, new piece of content, instead of – you know, and maybe 500 people see each one.

Instead of producing one piece of content and then making sure 50,000 people see that piece of content. You know, like that idea, I think especially, you know, and I've banged on independent agency owners for a long time. And now I'm kind of getting my comeuppance for all the hating I've been doing. But, you know, the amount of time that you actually have in your day is – you know, I think it's so much easier to promote than to create. And I think that's a better strategy.

Yeah. And I think what I see too – and, dude, so, you know, I'm – one of the carriers I represent – I don't know if we'll say names here or not. It doesn't matter. That's what I'm saying too. I don't care.

So, they do – they – just like every carrier likes to give their agents, here's some social media posts. So, I'm friends with them on Facebook. And I just – I know every time that carrier gives them something because I get five, feel like – But, like, you know, guys, that's great. You know, come up with some original stuff. But it is.

It's hard, though. And you really got to be all in and understand the content game. Because you and I take it for granted. Well, this is just what you do. Yeah.

There are people that are – that don't do any of it. Yeah. I, right now, I'm in a battle to crack page one for the term workers' comp experience mod and workers' comp X – workers' comp X mod, workers' compensation experience mod, X mod. I'm in this battle because I subscribe to SEMrush. Yeah.

Which is a social – or a SEO tracking tool for people that might not know. It's like Moz or – another good one is A-Refs. That's what – that's what L'Angelo uses. And I like A-Refs. It's just a little too nerdy for me.

But it's a very good tool as well. And what you see is, like, as you create content, where your content ranks – and I just find this to be very interesting – bounces around a lot. And I think a common misconception that people have is, like, I created this piece of content, and over time, if I do the right work, eventually, it just kind of moves up and up and up. And what really happens is, like, one day, that piece of content will be ranked 60th. The next day, it'll be ranked 14th, which is right – you know, right on the cusp of page one.

Then the next day, it'll be ranked in the 50s. And then the next day, it'll be ranked in the 20s. And then the next day, it'll be ranked back down close to page one again. And it's this constant battle because, at all times, you have all these other people that are fighting for those positions, and they're getting links, and they're doing – they're driving social traffic, and they're driving paid traffic. And Google is – it is not like, oh, All Choice Insurance wrote a great blog, number seven, done.

You know what I mean? Like, check it out. Like, you know, we accomplished something today. You know, they're number seven. That's just not the way it works.

It is this living thing, and you do have to keep doing the work. I think paid traffic is a huge part of it. It's a huge part of it. I mean, running PPC and driving traffic from things like YouTube, Google ads, Facebook ads, two pages that you want to rank is an important part. Just like good SEO, just like good, you know, organic and social media and email stuff.

Like, it pays huge dividends, but it's always – I mean, they're always moving. Well, and I think, honestly, that's what you just said, that moving around of, I guess, ROI, let's just call it. That's why so many agents are scared of the game. Yeah. You know, because for us, it's real easy.

It's like, hey, let's go sell something. Boom, we get instant gratification. But, man, I've been working on this website, this iteration for five or six years, the iteration before that, five or six more years. So, I mean, I've got over a decade in this, and it's funny, you know, I put out – in the last month, I got two leads that hit – and I do zero paid, no paid, nothing. Yep.

I had two people hit requesting quotes for commercial insurance, and they hit weird – the reason I know it was weird, they hit some weird internal quote forms. One was for commercial umbrella insurance, and one was for EPLI. Both of them were in California. Nothing I do – they had to have come from my YouTube videos, because I did a commercial umbrella. Yep.

And I think at some point in time during the whole COVID stuff, I did maybe something to talk about EPLI. So, of course, you know, I had to send one to Grant Davis, because I owed that guy, just because he – anytime I have a question, he'll answer it. And then I sent the other one over to Daniel – God, what is it, Song – I can't remember his name. Sent to him, because, you know, he's just awesome. But I'm like, you know, that's just weird and awesome all at the same time.

Like, I called a buddy of mine down here. He's a realtor, and he and I work on SEO stuff a lot. And I was like, dude, I just got to tell you what happened. Yeah. It's just – I love it.

I'm not going to make any money off of it, but that was just kind of cool. Yeah. You know, and that's the kind of stuff that comes back and pays a lot of dividends, too. I mean, I – and what I – I just mean, like, karmically or serendipitously, you know, you're helping people find solutions. And the other side of it, too, is – and if we're talking straight – if we're just talking straight, like, SEO, too, someone Googles something, finds a YouTube video, clicks through that YouTube video to your website, fills out a form on your website, that whole action is tracked by Google.

And they know that someone did a Google search, that they clicked on a link inside one of your YouTube videos, probably a description, and – as I get a call from California right now because I didn't turn my ringer off. And then took an action on your website. When someone fills out a form on your website, that's a huge indicator to Google that your site has value because they've now – they've now – Google knows they've filled out a form. And that kind of stuff, it all helps. And then in the long run, too, you know, you say you just threw referrals at two agents on the other side of the country.

Someday, they're going to have somebody who's in your area. They're going to think of you. And that's how we all work together, right? I mean, I was kicking some stuff down to a couple of New Jersey agents because I get a lot of Jersey stuff on a writing jersey. So, you know, I think – I just think that – I think to a lot of agents, they'll go, oh, man, those are shitty leads.

You know, this SEO stuff doesn't work. And I'm like, no, those are – yes, you did not cash a check because those two people came in. But in the long game, that's a huge win that those people contact you. And if nothing else, again, you just talked about how, you know, the tracking goes up and down. That right there – and again, I never look at my analytics.

It just – I don't have that kind of time right now. But to me, that's like, dude, I'm doing something right. So, it's sort of like that win that you're looking for. And, again, it's – like, I'm not cashing a check. But, you know, I want to say this.

I was – I listened – I just got back from the lake last night because we went up there. I can work from there. So, it's fantastic. I feel like Jason Cass sometimes being able to go on the pontoon boat after a day, you know. Not nearly as awesome as he is.

But, you know, we're driving back. I'm listening to you and Seth. And, you know, I just – I wanted to – I want to say this because I thought about it and I just – you know, dude, I'm an idiot. I know – I am not a smart person. I work my tail off.

I grind. But it's people like Seth and you and Cass and, you know, freaking Nick. I'm calling Nick – Nicholas Ayers Nick because I guess we're tight. No, we're not. But, you know, whatever.

That's me and Cass. Dude, it's like the community we live in right now is so awesome. Yeah. Because, you know, you can reach out to any of these guys and like – dude, like, hey, can you tell me this? I reached out to Jeff Shee over the weekend because I listened to a podcast Cass did with him.

And I was like, man, I got a question about this. It's something I'll do. And he was like, oh, yeah, let's schedule something. And I'm just like, you know, right now we're in that great era of independent agents working together. And if, man, if – in my utopian world, if we can get the carriers to start understanding that it's not a battle.

No one has this secret sauce. Yeah. The secret sauce is actually us. Like, you know, it's like what's the magic pill? The magic pill is you being willing to ask questions and go put in work.

And if we can get the carriers to somehow or another get together and go, you know what, Erie, Cincinnati are great, you know, you're not competing against one another. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like if we can get that to happen. And think about this.

If you can put in – kind of I'm thinking Tarmica-ish on a grand scale. You can put in, hey, I've got this personalized risk. Here's the stuff. And we send it out into this, you know, Tarmica world if they could. And every carrier comes back and says, hey, we want that.

We'll take a look at that. And they just give us all these options. Think about us as advisors. But we got to – if we can get the carriers to jump on board, which they're never going to do. And let's get Aubrey Knight and a couple of the other big heads to get a bunch of carriers in a room and, dude, let's just freaking not let them leave until we get some action.

And you know what? I love that you brought that up because I think – I do think that perception is starting to change. I think slowly but surely – so, one, I want to touch on the first thing you said. I wholeheartedly agree with you that this is – we are living in a golden age or maybe even like the second inning of a golden age of independent insurance agents. Because I look at when I first got into the industry 15 years ago, say, I – the – no one – no one – I mean, yeah, people would talk to each other, but not like this.

Not like Facebook messaging Nick Ayers, yo, bro, I can't get over the first line of this YouTube video I'm putting together. Like, how would you position this? 15 minutes later, you know, move this around. There's no scarcity here. Try an urgency play on this line.

Boom, here, push this out. I mean, there's nothing in it for him. He's not getting – I mean, yeah, like I love Nick and I talk about him and he, you know, he gets some run like on the podcast and stuff. But that's not why he's doing it. And it's not like I'm – he's not like he's, yo, bro, I'll do this for you if you blow me up on the podcast tomorrow.

You know what I mean? Like, that's not what it's about. It's 100% just like he's willing to do that. Think about how much you helped me when I was first started. I called you on the phone.

We're talking. You're walking me through different things. And some of that stuff I want to talk about too. But, like, I just think that right now agents – so many agents have become so comfortable sharing their expertise and their insights. And, hey, my book is this big and this makeup and, you know, and here's what I'm using if that helps you.

And then you can kind of go, okay, yeah, they're a little different. But, man, I can see what they're doing there. And I just – you know, I was talking to – so yesterday I was interviewing Eric Garcia from Garcia Insurance Services down in New Orleans for the podcast. And we were talking – he was talking about how, like, every agency is a unique snowflake. And I think it speaks – I think that speaks perfectly to what you said about when carriers are completely open to the idea that the secret sauce isn't a process, it's the agents themselves, and the whole game changes.

And I hope that that day comes. I think there are a lot of carriers that are starting to wake up – and I shouldn't say starting – that are embracing that more, that as younger executives who have kind of come up through their own ranks with agents like you, like me, like Daniel Sung, like Cass, you know, they're seeing this type of agent. And now they're moving into these upper management roles inside of carriers. They're more comfortable with this idea. And I think it's just a – I think the abundance mindset is permeating our industry more and more every day, and it just makes me happy.

Oh, yeah. And, you know, and Seth said it perfectly. And I have this debate sometimes because, again, I'm in – my largest carrier is Erie. Erie is an – they're an old agency force. Great agents.

I mean, nothing wrong with these agents. They make great money. They take care of their clients. Whatever. But I have conversations with a lot of them, and they're like, you know, I just don't see how you're doing what you're doing.

That doesn't work. You know, it could never work. And what they're talking about is the fact that over the last – dude, it wasn't that I was smart. It just – I got – out of necessity, I started moving to this, like, sort of online presence, you know, no real – we have offices, but it's like it's more virtual type stuff. It'll never work, never work.

People don't want that. Here's the thing. Geico, progressives, those people, they have that lower tier customer. There's nothing wrong with that. They have a certain segment.

And then your marshes, your big boys, they have this upper segment. But, man, that sweet spot in the middle is where every agent can play and win in a big fashion if they're willing to put in the work. You know what I mean? And it's not like, I'm not going to do this because it'll never work. I mean, there's a person that we all know, and bless his heart, it's a multi-generation agency, and I'm not going to put anybody on blast here.

But older person owns the agency. Younger person is moving up in the agency. When COVID hit, dude, they were having to take daggum desktops around to their people. Younger guys are like, Jack, how do we, you know, what's going on? What are y'all doing?

And I'm like, realistically, man, we've had, we're ahead right now of where we were last year. Like, we're crushing it. And I'm like, yay? You know? Yeah, no, 100%.

I had a guest on, and I can't remember which one it was, but he was talking about his agency and said that they were ahead. And then he was like, oh, you know, I'm sorry. And I just, I said, what, what the fuck are you sorry for? What are you saying sorry about? You know what I mean?

Like, like, what are you sorry about? Like, you're killing it. Like, that's, this, you know, and again, the audience knows, who's listening to this show knows who I am. I believe in capitalism, and I believe that hierarchies exist for a reason. And I don't mean you keep, push people down.

I believe that people ascend to a certain level in life because they push, and they learn, and they adapt, and they work hard. And, you know, I was just listening to this. I got caught on the Facebook video feed. Do you ever ask something? I try not to hit that button because it's like crack.

You get in that video feed, and there's so much cool stuff you can't get out of it. But I hit it today for some reason, and there's this Steve Harvey video comes up, right? And I like Steve Harvey. He's just got, like, a good, you know, he's a worker, man. A dude does, like, 10 shows.

Like, yeah, he makes a lot of money, but, like, he makes a lot of money because he does all, you know, he's a worker. And he had this clip, and it was short, and he's just like, he's like, no one got rich sleeping eight hours a day. That's what he said. That was the whole point of his clip. And he says this other stuff.

But when that hit me, I was like, I was like, you know, that's just so true. Like, you know, sleep in besides. The idea is you have to actually put in the work. You can't just rest where you are. You have to keep moving forward.

You have to keep grinding and sacrificing. And I think that what COVID did was expose the people who hadn't done that work. And a lot of them have adopted and are adapted, and I think that's a great thing. But I think it exposed a lot of agencies that hadn't done the work that had been coasting along because this industry allows that. And I think you know as well as I do.

I mean, it's an older agent. Independent agents are older. I can't remember what the statistic is, but it's like so many above like 55 or something. It's ridiculous. And dude, everyone can make money the way they want to make money, and it's great.

But I think that COVID is, one, pushing more people to a hybrid model, kind of like what I do, what you're doing, you know, augmenting the human ability with virtual stuff. But you've got some people, this COVID is going to push them down the retirement road because they're not willing to put – and it's not like it's money. Does it cost money to do all this? Yes. But it's not a ridiculous amount.

It's not any more than they're spending now. Dude, I'm a cheapskate. All my stuff is done on the dime, bro. But the amount of time I put into it, that's what they're not willing to do. And you know what?

They deserve it. They don't need to do it. 100%. But the problem that they're going to find is, and I believe this wholeheartedly, and if you're an older agency owner out there listening, the value of your book, if you do nothing, starts dropping big time here in the next five years. I was at a central event, this cool personalized event that they put on, Central Mutual.

We were in Atlanta, and God, Tom from – and I'm forgetting his last name, and I'm going to apologize if he listens to this or someone shares this with him. But I'm forgetting his last name. Tom and I – oh, man, it's killing me that I can't remember his last name, but from Reagan Consulting was there. And we were talking about this because I was brought in, obviously, to talk about content and marketing and how do you build these digital relationships? How do you do – how do you digitize the soul of an independent insurance agency?

That's kind of the idea. And then he was talking about, you know, valuations, but ultimately what he was talking about was how do you – how in the digital world do you maximize, in this case, your personalized book value? So that – so it was a really cool event, and it was cool that Central was putting this on. And one of the things that he said was, right now, your valuation is not impacted by your digital presence, right now. You know, this was probably a year and a half, two years ago.

He said, this moment, that is not being impacted. He goes, but our prediction at Reagan – and I don't want to speak for them, so if this is wholly false, they can, you know, just course correct or come on the show. But, you know, basically what he was saying was, like, there is a good chance that in the near future, when we're valuing a business, this is – if you can't email, if you can't text, if you don't have cloud-based records that people can get access to or the ability to get them into the cloud. Like, if you don't have this ability, these agency – people that are buying you, they're not going to be willing to pay the same amount of money because of the amount of work that's going to go into getting them into those systems. Because as your system gets older and older, it gets harder to get that information into the modern technology.

It doesn't get easier. It gets harder. And I was just talking to my wife about this because they're on TAM, you know, and they're always – unless, basically, because of the way TAM is set up, their only option for upgrading their agency management system is Epic, and that's a four-month nightmare. So – Not to mention it's so expensive. Yeah, and it's terribly expensive, and it's time, and you have, like, lost days where you're just down.

You have duplicate days where you're putting stuff in TAM and in – I mean, it is a nightmare. And, you know, it just – it limits you. It limits you in a lot of ways. And, again, like you said, make money however you want. But I will say, any agents that are looking to sell a smaller book in the state of New York, you know, I'm your guy.

Ryan at roguerisk.com. I'm looking to get the game. So, dude. Ditto in North Carolina. You used to look me up, All Choice Insurance.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Rogerisk.com. Rogerisk.com.

For New York, for North Carolina, go to All Choice Insurance. Yes. And I'm dead-ass serious about that, if any of you are listening or know someone. So, the reason I wanted to have you on was not just to shoot the shit like we are, although I love this. I wanted to talk about two aspects of your business that I am incredibly impressed with and just supremely interested in.

Because I do think they are setting you up for long-term success. And not that you have all the answers, but that your model is providing you with the flexibility to be able to navigate a COVID or, you know, God forbid, another weather event in your state. Or, you know, whatever, like the nature of how you have your business set up is giving you a ton of flexibility, which I think is one of the keys to sustainability for us. And that's, you've gone super deep into Infusionsoft. Now, take the tool away because, you know, there's other tools to use.

And that's kind of more of a personal and business choice. But the idea, I want to talk about what you're doing in there. And I also want to talk about kind of the distribution of your workforce and how you brought these producers on. And kind of, it's almost like they're like satellite, they're satellite locations, but really it's just like one producer. It's not like you have whole five-person, 10-person offices in these different spaces.

So talk to me a little first about, you know, your decision to go as deep as I know you've started to go into a tool like Infusionsoft to automate your business. You're like, like what, what was the first key to say, this is something I need to do? And why do you continue to put work in it? Because you're obviously must be seeing a benefit. Yeah, yeah.

So fun. I mean, oddly enough, through the journey of owning the agency, I've always been like enamored with not shiny objects, but with how other businesses run their business. Because I think as insurance agents, we get stuck into, we see Joe Blow down the street has done it this way. And so we try to mimic that. But that's not the real world.

I mean, other industries do things far better than we do. So, you know, I don't know. That's probably five, six years ago. I actually started working with Infusionsoft. And honestly, it didn't, I think probably what you found is that the tool is ridiculously awesome.

But you got to work it. Yeah. And at the time, I didn't have the time. And I didn't have the money. Because, I mean, you know, it's not, it's not like it's expensive, but it's not cheap.

Yeah. You know. So, you know, I dabbled in it. And then I think when, about two years ago, I was making the decision between going with Michael Janz's, what was it? Agency Revolution?

Yeah. I was looking at that or Infusionsoft, again, because I felt like that I needed to have a deeper relationship with the customer. Yep. And, you know, I started, and finally, I think someone was integrating management systems in Infusionsoft. And I was like, look, this is what I need to do.

So, realistically, just started, was just looking at the sales funnel. And then we brought Jared on. So, I really hyper-focused on the, on making sure our sales process was good up front. But then I started looking at it and I'm like, you know what? I can, I can automate a lot of the just mundane stuff that we have to do on a daily basis.

One, two, again, I'm a cheapskate. I don't like having staff. So, I can get the automations to where a lot of the stuff we do is taken care of. You know, sans people, if we will. Yeah.

And then I started thinking, you know, when Amazon, when you order something from Amazon, whomever, it's a, the same process happens every time. You know what I mean? It's like, I order, I get email, I get email again when it goes out to shipment, whatever the case is. And I was like, you know what? That's what people expect now.

So, how can I build that in? So, I mean, literally, we started with just a sales pipeline and we automated and tweaked and tweaked and tweaked. And then I was like, hey, man, I can run my endorsement processes through this. Hey, man, I can run my renewal processes through this. I'm still, I'm not even halfway done.

But, you know, review processes. So, it's like everything that I found that used to be, I would need a person to remember to do that. Now, there's nobody that needs to remember. You know, it's, and that's what I want to get to. I want to make sure that me, my people, we're doing the work that we should be doing, not freaking moving widgets around.

You know, that's, I'm losing a client today. I got this text this morning and he was like, I just want to let you know I'm shopping because when I signed up with you, I wanted you as the agent and I like to be able to call you and you do stuff. And that's great. There's nothing wrong with that. The guy's like a $4,000 in premium personalized account and he wanted me to answer my cell phone, do the changes myself, you know, file the claims myself.

And I'm like, man, if you want to talk about risk, I'm your guy. I'm going to let my people process a change. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with losing that guy. But that's, but my dollar value isn't in making changes.

You know what I mean? So it's like Infusionsoft is just taking me down that road. And dude, here's, here's the coolest one that I've set up here recently. I thought this was awesome. So you probably, I don't think you do a lot of home closings, like home loan closings.

So, you know, get a referral from mortgage broker. They're freaking, you know, you got a closing three weeks from now. So we were having an issue with closing dates moving. So we were always having to personally follow up. I made a daggum quick little campaign to where we set it in motion as soon as we get a yes.

And it starts reaching out to the loan officers, to the, to the realtor, making sure, hey, we need this, this, and this. Hey, is the closing date this? And it just automates, automates, automates. And I mean, they love it. And my team isn't having to follow up with stuff.

It's awesome. So yeah, maybe I answered your question. Maybe I didn't. No, you 100% did. I, um, you also just wrote the title for your episode, but, um, cause I always, I write, I make the titles up as I listen to the things you're saying.

You won't know what it is until it comes out. Um, and it doesn't have to do with your beard. So that's a good thing. Some, every other podcast I see that you do has to do with that. Um, so I, okay.

So I think what you just described is the battle of our generation of agency owners. I think that, or I think this is our flag, our hill to climb is this idea that the transaction is not the value that we add to this process. It's part of the business. You have to figure out a way to make it happen. It has to work, but it is, it's below the barrier to entry.

There was a time when good service was, you know, I used to stand on stage and I would say, you know, good service, good price, ease of business. Like this, these are the, this is just the bar. This is, you have to be able to get over this just to get in, get on the ride, right? You have to be taller than this to ride the ride. I don't even think that's the case anymore.

I think that's that, you know, that's the little, that's the, the little dragon ride that goes in a circle like this and kind of bops up and down. That's that ride. You want to get on the roller coaster. You're way past that. And I think that, that this idea of maximizing, how do you maximize your personal value to the, to the experience that the person's getting?

If it's, if it's, if you're per, if you're maximizing your personal value is doing a car change, then your agency doesn't really deserve to be more than a small personal lines, non-standard business. Because you're taking your time and applying it to very low hourly wage stuff that can, for the most part, if you're, if you work with a service center, can be done by the carrier and probably done faster and more efficiently than your team can do it. I actually, I just had this debate with my wife the other day, because we were talking about service centers because I'm, I try to use every service center that I can. And, and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm still working on that process. I have wins and losses in that, in that, in that area.

And, um, you know, I said to her, when you take, cause she was asking me about it. And I said, when you take a car change, right? Cause she got a, basically this all started. And this is a huge contextual thing. I, when this started, she got a call on a Saturday afternoon to do a car change call on a Saturday afternoon.

And she's just like, son of a bitch. You know, this is the last thing I want to be doing, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This person was referred to me and, and she's, she's very good to her clients. And it's part of why I love her. And part of why her agency is so successful at the same time, she's doing $15 an hour work at three 30 on a Saturday afternoon.

So I said to her, you're going to take that car change. You're going to, you have to log in to Tam, put it into Tam. Then you have to take that same information, log into the Safeco system or whoever the car insurance is with and log it into their system. Again, think about that. When all you could have done is gone, Hey, Tammy, great.

I'm going to forward that. I'm going to forward you right now on to our, our Safeco car change specialist. And they're going to do this for you. Okay. All right.

Thanks, Tammy. You have a great day for the call to Safeco. Safeco does it for you. And then the change downloads into your system. Like those are what, you know what I mean?

Like you just think about the difference there. And, um, I, I just, I, I think the quicker and I'm, I'm rambling, but the quicker we can get, can understand where we maximize our value. And, and that, and that, and that, and that person is not, is not helping you do that. I just think that this is our battle. This is our mountain.

We have to climb. Well, and, and here's what you, if you talk to some older guys and even some younger guys who have just always done it this way, they'll think that using a service center is crazy. Man, I can't believe you're giving up, you know, not, not even the comp points, but I can't believe that you're doing this because then you don't control the customer. And for me, I'm, I'm not a service center person, but I think that if you have a plan for however you work your business, as long as you have a plan for that, then it's right for you. Yeah.

So like if Ryan Hanley says, you know what rogue is service center oriented, we want all that going there. As long as you can find a way to, I think, circle back the value to make sure, yeah, much point, whatever it is with the client, dude, the client doesn't care how stuff happens. They just want it to happen. Yes. And so like for us, we found that, you know, obviously like Erie's our largest carrier, they don't have a service center.

It doesn't matter. But if you ask most people, what happens when Sally takes the car change at your office? Oh, we take it in, you know, and it gets done. And our clients love that. Okay.

I mean, that's what's supposed to happen, but how are you gaining any value versus a service center? Now, if they were like, well, every time a car, you know, a call comes in that we do that, we, we review the account, we cross sell what, whatever it is, if they're doing it and it's a plan, that's good. I know that every change we get, we open a ticket and the customer gets a text and an email saying, Hey, we got your request. Again, kind of going back to that Amazon thing of, I'm going to tell you way more than you want to know. You got the request.

And then when we finish it up, they get, we close the ticket and they get, you know, Hey, we're done with it. Here's your ID card automatically. You know, we're business processes and then, Oh, by the way, we need you to do one more thing. Click here. Boom.

It's taking them to Google to give me a review. I'm gaining value. Even if I don't get a sale out of that. Yeah. No, because it's the review.

So I've got a plan. You've got a plan. People who said there's no value in service. It's not the service that counts. It's the plan.

How you're, what your plan is. A hundred percent. Because you can, you can, you can follow up with that same process with a service center. You can do the same thing you said about VAs. Oh, well, you know what, you know, no one wants to talk to, you know, you know, Samantha who's in the Philippines.

First of all, no one frigging knows that Samantha's in the Philippines. Second of all, do you think they honestly care if Samantha's in the Philippines? If Samantha's doing a great job and helping them with their thing and walking them through whatever problem. No, no one cares. By the way, by the way, the endorsement process that they were talking to and getting fulfilled by my VA in the Philippines.

A hundred percent. Right. And you have, you know, and then this is, I was actually talking to Wes Anderson about this maybe six months ago. This was during the fall, you know, talking to him about he and Ben, his partner, have a really large call center in Puerto Rico. And now you have bilingual, you know, you have English first language speakers, but, or you have native Spanish speakers, but English, like wholly proficient.

So now you have U.S. citizens who are pure bilingual speakers who can take calls from Spanish speakers, who can transfer, who are completely understanding the English side of it as well. And you've just added a whole nother discipline to your agent, if that's something you need. If you have a contingency of clients who speak Spanish and you want to offer that, I mean, these are the type of things that are at your disposal. And I think what it comes back to is what you've said is this idea of having a plan. You don't need a VA to have a VA.

You need a VA if the VA helps you execute on the plan that you're trying to experience, you're trying to provide. And the truth is, you know, I don't know that I'll always be 100% service center forever. I know there are certain service centers like Cincinnati's, like Hanover's, that I have had incredible experiences with so far. Just absolutely incredible experiences that I've sent my clients to. My clients have come back and said, that was great.

I have no problem ever calling them, no problem emailing them. And they talk to your clients as if they're part of your agency and it is a pure, it's a real relationship. I don't think every service center operates that way. Every VA isn't the best fit for your agency. You know, sometimes you want the person sitting in your office, but I think what it comes back to is what you said is having a plan.

Not just doing it because, you know, someone who's a slick speaker on a stage told you that VAs are the future. Do it because it helps you execute what you're trying to do for your clients. Yeah, and here's the thing. And that goes along with any automation platform, any, anything. My job as the owner of AllChoice is to identify and fix bottlenecks.

That's all I do. I mean, Jared, when we brought Jared on, we figured out there are bottlenecks in our sales pipeline that I can automate messaging so people aren't dropping out because they didn't hear from us. You know, there's bottlenecks. We just brought on, shout out to Wes, even though he won't call me back most of the time, Wes Anderson. Quote, unquote, lives and dies by his calendar.

If you ain't on my calendar, I ain't picking up the phone. So, but, you know, I brought on one of the VAs from Puerto Rico because we weren't able to outreach to leads fast enough. I can fix that. You know what I mean? Dude, she's awesome.

Boom, boom, boom, does it. So, yeah, I mean, that's where most people in our agency, in the agency world have gotten fat and happy is that they think that their process is just good and that this is just how we do it. Dude, my team hates me, I bet, sometimes because I'm like, we got to try this. This is a better way to, this is, I think this will work. And if it doesn't, dude, I'll scrap it real quick, like, but I'm really willing to try something.

So, you know, and I think it comes back to this idea of being flexible, right? Like, like nobody saw COVID coming. No one saw COVID coming. And, you know, if you were to list the top 10 things that agency owners are worried about, pandemic, you know, complete total economic shutdown from pandemic wouldn't even make the top 20. You know what I mean?

Like, just nobody saw this coming. And I think the lesson is that this type of flexibility, that releasing our kind of dogmatic views on what works and what doesn't work, you know, that's really the key. And Carruthers always bust my chops because he says I use this example too much, but like the Bruce Lee, be like water, right? Like, like that idea of, you know, two years ago, you probably never, you thought never even hit your mind. I'm going to look for a VA in Puerto Rico who can help me outreach to my leads faster.

But because you're open to being flexible and understanding that, you know, that's an area that maybe you have some deficiency in and you're willing to try it. Dude, the worst thing that can happen is you call Wes and you go, hey, man, it's not really helping. We're going to, we're going to table this. And he goes, okay, no problem. I mean, that's literally the worst thing that can happen.

Yeah, exactly. I think, I think I, I think I went down a rabbit hole there, dude. I'm sorry. I didn't. Yeah.

No, no, dude. That's what this show is. People listen to other shows for a, for a coherent linear narrative. That is not what this show is about. So let me ask you this, man, because I want to be respectful of your time and we've been chatting for a while.

What do you see, like from, so, so from where you are, you know, you have some, you have, you have some kind of older school carriers like Erie. You work with some of the nationals, you know, so you've got a full spectrum there. You have this distributed workforce. You have some younger producers. You got some hungry guys like Jared.

You know what I mean? Like what do you see, like if you, if there's another mountain, right? If there's something else that's kind of on the horizon for you that you see maybe is, is another challenge that, that, that you want to make sure you're prepared for, you know, is there anything out there that you're looking at going, you know, we might not be ready today, but we're working towards being able to climb this hill. You know, is there anything else coming? You know, that's, like you just said, I don't know that we were ever intentionally preparing for COVID.

You know, we thankfully, and again, this is, let's just call it sheer luck that I was already moving this way, but so we're good there. But, you know, I think the one thing that we are really trying to do here, and, you know, again, this is not like secret sauce stuff, but so my business partner is much older than I am. You know, he'll be retiring in a few years. He taught me how to sell, and there's no one better in this world at bird-dogging somebody to get a sell. He's old school, but he's trying to, to move away from having that day-to-day stuff, so he's starting to adhere to some of our processes now, where he kind of lived outside of everything.

And it was funny, because I said, look, man, if you just, if you allow me to do this, and you enter the leads this way, you watch and see the success. Because his whole sales point of view, and this is, I'll wrap it up here, I'm going a long way around here, but, you know, his way of selling was, I see what you got now. I'm going to come in there, and I'm going to try to beat it by 10%. You know, commercially, I need to beat it 20%, and no one will move. That's a fallacy, you know.

And same thing with personal lines. I'm going to, oh, you only pay this amount of money right now. I'm going to give you this coverage. I'm going to tell you maybe you don't need medical payments instead. I'm going to save you a little bit of money.

That was his sales thing, and it worked uber successful. But I said, watch this. That game is done, I think. I think the consumer of today, especially with COVID happening, all the people that didn't have coverage for whatever, whether it could be had or not, that's a debate for a different time. Now more than ever, they value your knowledge.

And if, you know, the agencies, agency owners of the world who always like to bitch and complain about, oh, Geico is doing this with the direct model or whatever, show some daggum value and stop selling like they do. You know, it's, we sent on a proposal for my business partner to a person. Said, look, I said, remove yourself from the situation. I had my director of operations, I love titles. I had him send our video proposal, you know, which we do a platinum, gold, silver, bronze option because we found that we weren't selling enough umbrellas and upselling because people were just reading the font.

You know, here's the number. We get like a message back immediately, like, oh, man, this video is awesome. Yeah, I mean, right now in the state of North Carolina, we have 30, 60, 25 are our bodily injury and property damage limits. In the last week, I think we have sold three or four people that had 30, 60, 25, 250, 500, 100 with a million dollar umbrella. Why?

Because we just showed value. We just, we told them what they needed to know. So long way around to get to that. The next hurdle we as the agency force have to get through is competing like we always did. We have to get to the point where it's, we have a value.

Because otherwise, Amazon can automate the crap out of something and, you know, can say, hey, you got 5,100, here's 5,100 at a better price. Yeah. So you've got to find a way to present your value to someone and tell them who cares about insurance. You know, you don't care about insurance until you have a claim. When you do, it's really, you know, it's really a big deal.

But, you know, you need to hit and let people know why you're better. So that's age-old, you know, kind of truisms there, but it's true. The agents of the day, if you sell like you have always sold or you try to sell based on price alone, man, you're dying in the water. Yeah. Truly believe that wholeheartedly.

You know, and it's funny, when I first, the first couple times I had accounts in, I hadn't sold a policy in five years, right? So first couple of like leads that came in and I'm quoting them up and I'm selling, I can hear myself. It was like, it was like two bodies, right? Like my mouth is selling straight on price. And there's this, you know, over someone over my shoulder going, what are you doing?

Why are you talking that way? You know what I mean? And it took me kind of getting back into it because it's so easy because the easiest thing to say is I'm saving you money. That's the easiest thing to say is, hey, I'm saving you money. And, um, it's, it's, it takes some, some guts, I guess is probably the best way to say it, but, but it, but it, it wins.

It's the, it's how you win. It's the only way you win long-term to, to say, look, I appreciate that you want to save some money, but if you get in a car accident, that's not going to get you. That's, that's not going to take care of your family. And, um, and, and there's a million ways to say that and you have to be true to yourself and you do, but, but that's, that's the only way. That, that we move forward and, and, and digitizing that is the key.

Well, you think about it. And I don't know David Carruthers personally. Uh, I think he might've, we might've communicated, communicated via Facebook, but I guarantee you, cause I see you doing it right now. You're positioning yourself. I'm assuming with his help, you know, kind of tutelage, uh, kind of training to, to get away from that.

Like, Hey, yeah, you have workers comp and yeah, we can go get you a price, but yeah. How can, how every I'm doing the same thing everyone else is doing, except now I can show you how moving forward, you know, we can do X, Y, and Z. Yeah, that's it's, it's, it's where we have to be advisors, man. And that ain't that term, but you know, I, you know, the worst thing that we ever did was, was, was bastardized that term trusted advisor, because it is, it does exactly describe what we need to be. We are in the trust business.

That is why people buy insurance. People buy insurance from Geico because they trust Geico as crazy as that is to, to, to, to independent agents. So like, how could you trust these guys? It's a gecko. They have all these exclusions on their policy.

They don't want to. And it's like, because Geico speaks to the consumer over and over and over again with the same consistent message and they trust nothing else. They're just going to be there. They trust that it's an, it's an operating entity that's going to continue to exist. And, um, and not that it's hard to dismantle that trust.

I think when we really get in, but if you try to compete with them on that level, they have way more price trust than we do. When it comes to price selling, the consumer trusts them a hell of a lot more than they trust us. And, you know, just that, that idea, um, if you can step away from it, that's the whole key, man. I mean, and I just, if anyone has listened to this show for long enough, how many people who've been on the other side of the microphone have said this, we've said this thing so many times. It's not easy.

You got to change your mindset. And I think the key is doing things like, um, you know, I know you had a Crowley in to sit in one of your sales meetings, right? It's kind of going all the way back to how we started this about it's, it's about surrounding yourself with other agents, sharing information, talking. You know, if you had a bad sales day or you said something stupid, talk to somebody about it, call somebody up and go, dude, you're not going to freaking believe what I just said to this guy. And he didn't buy and I'm an idiot.

And then the person in the line go, Hey, it happens, man. And then you feel better about it and you move on and you learn. Um, sometimes too, man, you got to have that support system because you've, and I guarantee you've gone through this and shame on me for not. I told you, I think I texted you a couple of like almost a month ago and say, Hey man, how you doing? We hadn't talked lately.

You know, I'm bad for me, but you know, sometimes you got to get out of your own daggum way and get out of your own head and just, but you need people around you to, I mean, not everyone is, is stupid as I am just to think that I know what the hell I'm doing. Some people actually need to hear, Hey, look, man, you're okay. You know? Yeah. So dude, Hey man, I, uh, I appreciate you.

I appreciate all the help and, and, and, and, and, and as we've gotten to know each other and become friends, like I've, it's been very meaningful to me and, uh, and I just appreciate all you're doing. I think that, I think you're running a, a world-class shop and I, and I love that you continue to grow and you know, you're, I'm, I'm chasing you. You know what I mean? Like that. And I mean that in the most positive way.

Like I look at what you're doing and the way you think about your business and, and, and it's, uh, it's definitely, um, something that I aspire, I aspire to. And, uh, I'm just glad that you'd give us some time today. Dude, I tell you what I was, I was talking to somebody that I said this, I said in my perfect world, if I could do what I do now and I can bring on people like Jared, who's just been fantastic. And if I could grab Ryan Hanley and to join the team and let's fricking become like the Avengers and just handle all my content and run New York, dude, that's my perfect world, man. Cause dude, you're awesome.

I can't say enough or I was, it was two or three years ago. So I was driving to the lake and then I will get off. I was driving to the lake and it's, you know, in North Carolina is going backwards and I'm listening to a podcast with you and Jason Cass. And I was, it dawned on me. I said, you know what?

I'm not stupid for thinking the way I've been thinking because you guys were just hammering at home. Like I was like, these guys are saying what I've been saying. And so it gave me the trust and the faith to go, you know what? I'm not crazy. And you guys are a huge part of the reason that we're here.

You know what I mean? So thank you for what you do. That's not just me blowing sunshine up your ass there. So I'll take a little sunshine on my ass. Hey, man, I'll blow it up.

Jason Cass is all day long. Cause he, he is, he, he needs to hear that. He's, he's not confident enough. Someone said, someone said on Facebook, um, oh man, they said something about, uh, uh, it was something about, you know, we're never going to see sports again. And I just said, it's all Cass's fault.

This is everything. It's all Cass's fault. I don't know what, I don't even know what you're talking about, but I'm just assuming that Cass is the problem. Uh, all right, brother. Hey, I appreciate you.

Be good. Thank you, brother. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you.

Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you.

Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you.

Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you.

Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you.

Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you.

Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you.

Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you.

Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you.

Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you.

Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you.

Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you.

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I'm here on a job site with Tim who owns his own electrical contracting business. Three employees and two work trucks. Tim traded up to Geico Commercial Auto Insurance. We're positively here where he needs us most. They sure are.

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Consider subscribing, rating, and reviewing the show this holiday season. It really helps the show grow. From all of us at Believe, have a Merry Christmas, everyone, and a happy holiday. If you like the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow.

Thank you for listening.