Josh Gurley on How to Be Brave Enough to Tell People the Truth

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In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. I'm sure some of you agree, disagree, but I know it certainly was for me. Absolutely love who we're kicking off 2022 with, and it's Josh Gurley. Now, Josh Gurley came to fame with an epic interview that he did on David Carruthers' podcast, Power Producers' podcast. Kind of just listening to Josh talk about the business and how he approached it, I think it's, people just responded to it, and it was amazing, and I got to know Josh after that interview and being part of the Killing Commercial community, and then, you know, we've just talked and gotten to know each other better and better, and it was finally time to have Josh on the show.

And I told him, you know, I said, man, you got an open interview, you just tell me when you want to come, and he wasn't sure. And finally, we got him on the show, and this is just, this is just a tremendous conversation. I think it is absolutely the right way to kick off 2022, and Josh is an epic dude. So, partner at HM Advisors, just, you're going to love this one. You're going to absolutely love this one.

Before we get there, I want to give a shout out to the people that make this podcast possible. My friends over at Pathpoint, Pathpoint is changing the game, changing the game for ENS, making it easy to quote, bind, issue, excess, and surplus lines, coverage, Pathpoint's a big part of our strategy at Rogue, with the diverse nature of risks that come in, being able to quote, bind, and issue ENS business in a way that makes sense, in a way that allows you to get back to your customers faster. It's just, it's changing the nature of small business insurance, and we're very proud to represent Pathpoint. Go to Pathpoint, just Google Pathpoint, go to Pathpoint right now, sign up, get appointed, check it out. I'm telling you, you not be disappointed.

Pathpoint is a game changer when it comes to ENS business. Also want to give a big shout out to Propeller Bonds, another company changing the game for us. Propeller Bonds makes the surety bond business a part of your day-to-day business. What I mean by that is, you know, bonds can be, you know, if you're not set up for bonding or you're not a bonding expert, surety can be a time-consuming item. It's something that maybe you don't offer because a lot of the premiums on bonds just aren't super big, and it feels like a waste of time.

Well, Propeller completely flips that on its head. Now, even a $100 municipal bond that you might make $10 commission on or $20 commission on becomes simple because you just send your customers a link and you say, hey, you need that municipal bond, no problem. We got you. I'm going to send you a link. You just fill out that form.

You're going to get your bond five, 10 minutes. It's crazy easy, and it allows you to become, it allows you to say to the market, we are a bonding solution for you. So highly recommend Propeller Bonds. Go to propellerbonds.com. Sign up, guys.

Again, these tools, these digital platform players, these digital partners are the game changers. They create the efficiency for us. Yeah, you're always going to have your standard markets and your go-to markets and all that is great, but to become the true value provider that I think the independent insurance industry claims to be and is, bringing in digital players like this, digital tools like Propeller Bonds and Pathpoint just allow you to execute that in a more efficient and effective way, and that's what we're about here at Rogue Risk, is providing max value in the most efficient and effective way possible, and we're proud to have Pathpoint and Propeller Bonds as sponsors moving into the new year 2022. All right, my friends, you're going to love this episode. Let's get to Josh Gurley.

Yo, dude. What's up, man? Oh, not too much, man. Just getting ready for some family photos. Nice.

That's exciting. Yeah. Yeah. So right after we're done, I'm going to shoot down to this farm, I think, somewhere and get our Christmas picks made. You guys doing, like, a theme or anything?

I don't know, man. You know, my wife used to be a photographer before we had kids, so she's probably got it all figured out. Gotcha. But you're not wearing, like, you're not all wearing, like, ugly sweaters or... Oh, no, no, no, no.

You're not all putting, like, suspenders on because you're going to be at a farm or something? No, the closest I'm getting is this shirt. I mean, it looks kind of pink on the screen, but it's really red, so I'm a little, getting a little bit festive for the season. But, you know, the kids are going to have their, all their finest stuff on, so... Yeah, very cool.

Very cool. So what's up, dude? What's going down? Not too much, man. I'm actually working on a book that I'm reading.

It was recommended by Chris Paradiso, Living Your Best Year Ever by Darren Hardy. Have you heard of that book? Yeah, I have. So right now, I'm doing my year-in-review worksheet, and I'm on the top 10 happenings from last year. So I've written six down.

It said that you need to take as much time as you need to to write them down. So I'm going to think about it over the next little bit and get them all written down. Any of those that you're willing to share? Yes. Are we officially recording now?

Yeah. Always. Always. Yeah. So I'll just go straight down the list.

So number one is we completed our house. We wanted to build our kind of dream house. And so we started on it last year, and we finished it up in March of 2021. I don't think that I will ever build another house, but it was really awesome to be able to move in. And, you know, the kids love it.

One of my very best friends is actually our next-door neighbor. And so he's got kids that are the same age as our kids. And so it's just been awesome. We bought the lot probably three or four years ago and just spent a lot of time trying to prepare and make sure we had everything right. So we moved in.

Man, it's beautiful. It's awesome. That's a good one. What else? So next one is I surpassed my sales goal.

I set a revenue goal for myself, new business, and I surpassed that goal. Did a really good job on my renewals. I had a couple of clients that sold out to some private equity funds this year, but it didn't hurt me too bad. And everything's really looking good, renewals for the kind of the end of the year. So that was a huge one for me.

It's always at one of the top of my list, so surpassed my sales goal. The next one is I traveled with my wife. We got going a few trips together. We went down to Tampa for innovation. We went to Key West.

We got a trip planned to Vegas in February. I think we're going to Miami in May. And then we are going back to Key West in June. So I've got some stuff planned with her. I got some trips planned with the kids, all that kind of stuff.

So that's fun. I love that. It's super fun. The next one is my son, James. He started kindergarten this year.

And his first semester of kindergarten has been awesome. He's got a great teacher. You know, really cool little, it's a small little private school. Nothing fancy. But, you know, they just, you know, they share a lot of the morals and all that kind of stuff that we have.

So that was really cool. He's doing so good in school. Got a lot of little friends and all that kind of stuff. And my daughter, she started her 3K this year. So she's three years old, about three, four.

So really loved the school. The next one's kind of off the wall. I learned how to one wheel this year. I wanted to do something different. And so I bought a one wheel electric skateboard in January.

And I've got probably 250 miles on it so far. So not quite a mile a day, but I've been trying to ride it as much as I can. And what is it that you like about it? I like that it's just one of those things I can get out. I can do it early on Saturday morning when everybody else is in bed.

And I can just feel some wind through my hair and just think. It's just one of those times where I can listen to a podcast, look into a book, you know, think about what happened the past week, kind of get my mind right for the next week. You know, just have some me time. Why did you pick a one wheel? Mainly, I just thought it was cool.

I was in my neighborhood while we were building our house. And there was this kid in there, probably like 15 or 16 years old. And the construction team was there. And this kid was like riding the one wheel down the street. And here I am, a 37-year-old man.

And I'm like chasing him down the street. I'm like, hey, dude, I really want to try this thing. And he was like, he had his music on. He was like, what? I was like, dude, I want to try your skateboard.

I want to see if I can do this. And then he was, you know, the good risk manager that he was, he was like, listen, in so many words, he was like, listen, old guy. If you break your neck on the skateboard, like, this is not my problem. And I was like, hey, no problem. So I jumped on the one wheel.

I rode it around a little bit. I was like, this is kind of cool. And I was like, what the heck? So I went and bought one online. They shipped to my house.

And, you know, the rest is history. Cool. And you still love it. I still love it, man. Yeah, I do.

They just actually came out with a brand new one. So I have a little bit of jealousy that's built in there. But, you know, it's cool, man. I mean, mine goes about six to eight miles. If I lost, you know, maybe a pound or two, it might go a little bit farther.

But, which we've talked a lot about that, you know, sending scale pictures back and forth. Yeah. But, yeah, man, I can get about six or eight miles. And that's about all I want. Just riding around the neighborhood and different stuff like that.

Do you get weird looks when you're cruising or people into it? Or is it like now it's like a thing? You're the guy on the one wheel? Or what do the neighbors think? So my neighborhood is pretty small.

There's only about 50 houses in the whole neighborhood. And we have this, like, pretty much a private, you know, some people call it a lake. I mean, I call it a pond. It's like 100 acres. And so, you know, there's like a thing for the kids down there and a little boat ramp.

And, you know, you can put a little giant boat in there and that kind of thing. So everybody has a golf cart because everybody's always taking their kids down there or whatever. And I don't have a golf cart, but I do have a one wheel. And so the thing that I do that, you know, I'll get on the one wheel and I'll put the kids in the little wagon. And I'll be, like, pulling them down the road in the one wheel.

And then everybody else is, like, zipping by in the golf cart. So I guess I am. I'm the one wheel guy. And people know me for that whenever I'm tooling around the neighborhood. That's cool.

All right. What's number four? Let's see here. The next one is going to be, I made some new friends who inspire me. I made some new friends who inspire me.

So last year, I mean, I've always been a person, like, ever since I've been in this business, I've just been so, I've been so focused on production. I've been so focused on, like, gaining new clients. I really haven't met a ton of people in the industry. I mean, I'm not super involved in, like, the Big I or anything like that or the PIA of Georgia, although I did recently join the Commercial Lines Committee for the Big I, which has been really awesome because I've met a lot of super, super smart people in that group. But so when COVID came around, I feel like there was just this really weird time where everybody was trying to figure out what was next.

Yeah. Nobody really knew what was happening, and people were thinking about, you know, am I an essential worker and figuring out what they were going to do with all their employees. And so there was just this totally just dead time that was going on. And so a friend of mine, another agent, was kind of like, hey, if you want to kill some time, join this group. So I joined the IOA Facebook group.

I had no idea what it was. And then somebody put a comment out about workers' comp, and they were talking about return to work. And I made a comment on the post, first comment I ever made. I had been in the group for a week or so, made a comment on the post. And then the next thing I know, I get this person that responds to my comment, and his name is David Carruthers.

And David Carruthers was like, well, this is kind of a watered-down approach of what we do. And I was like, who is this asshole that's, like, telling me that my approach is watered down? That's most people's first impression of Carruthers is, who is this asshole? So he says this, and then I almost wrote kind of something snarky back, like, well, do you really want me to take my, you know, full process and write it down? It would take me two hours to type all this up.

So I didn't, but then we ended up becoming friends on Facebook somehow, and he reached out to me, and he was like, hey, you want to be, you want to come on my podcast? And he's like, I think your story would be something that people would be interested in listening to. And I was like, no, not really. I don't want to come on your podcast. And then I started thinking about it, and I said, well, why don't you give me about a week or two weeks, and I'll think about it, and I'll let you know.

Because I had no idea who this guy was. He was, I didn't know anybody in the whole insurance influencer space. And so eventually I came back, and I said, sure, let's do it. Why not? So we recorded a podcast, and then from there, it was like all these people started friending me on Facebook, and I bet I have 300 friends on Facebook.

I've been somewhat selective of the people that I've accepted, but I've got all these insurance people that are my friends on Facebook now. And from there, you know, I mean, I kind of knew who you were, but I didn't really know you. And then I started meeting you. I started meeting some other guys, and, you know, some of the people have podcasts. I mean, a lot of them are just, you know, insurance people.

And I just started realizing, man, there are so many really awesome people that are out there. And then this year, when my wife and I went to Key West, I mean, it was all insurance people. There was like 20-some-odd insurance people that went to Key West together. And so for me, I mean, that was one of the things that came out of COVID that was interesting. It was like I made all these friends from all across the country, and I started realizing, hey, these people are just like me.

You know, they're not so bad. These are not competitors. These are people that are trying to figure this thing out. And so if I learned one thing from COVID, it was like all these people, you know, they're just really good people. And so it really set me on this path of having an abundance mindset, I think, of, like, what can I do for the industry?

So both of my parents were teachers. So my mother taught kindergarten for 30 years. And then my dad, he was actually a school superintendent, administrator for many years. And so growing up, the only people that I was around was educators because all my mom's friends were teachers, and I was always hanging out at the school late. My dad was always going to school board meetings and different things like that.

And so I just think over the past couple of years, this whole idea of helping provide education to people was something that was exciting to me. And so the thing for me about, like, coming on your show and any other podcast or event that I've been a part of over the past couple of years is, like, I just really want to help provide education to our industry. Because I think we're in one of the most honorable industries that a person could possibly be in. I mean, we're that business, that company, that individual that comes to somebody's rescue when their house burns down. I mean, how cool is that to be the person that can show up, calm people down, you know, talk them through the process and help them get to a better place on the back end.

And so that's something that I take really seriously. And I think it's why whenever I talk to people, I really talk a lot about the blocking and tackling, all the different fundamentals that are involved in this business. The relationship aspect, the education aspect, just being able to advise people in a way where you're not afraid. And because I think a lot of times we run from things that cost money to customers because we think that the client thinks that all we're trying to do is sell them another insurance policy. And that may be true for some people.

But for me, I try to relate it always back to people. And you think about workers' comp. I think about how it's our duty as an insurance agent to advise a business and say, you want your employees returning home in the same condition that they showed up to work. And so that's why it's so important to have safety programs. That's why it's so important to have workers' compensation.

That's why it's so important to have, you know, return to work and provide that environment because at the end of the day, they have families just like we do, you know. And so I try to change the way that people view our role in the industry and the way that they view the actual insurance, you know, transaction, product, whatever it is that you want to call it in general. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I always, you know, the way I talk about it, sometimes I think there's a lot of different ways of positioning it is insurance is the foundation upon which business owners and entrepreneurs are able to take the risk that they need to take to grow their business, right? Like you can't hire another employee unless you have comp or you have other insurance in place.

You can't buy a new building, right? You can't take on a new line or produce a new product unless you have the proper insurance in place because otherwise, you know, you're extending out without the foundation, right? So, you know, that to me, that mentality I completely agree with and obviously it's why we connected. I think to your point about it, a lot of times we can feel like all the client sees us doing is trying to sell them another policy. I think it's unfortunate, but it's definitely true and it's also completely just in our head.

Yeah, I totally agree. It's just in our head. And that to me was one of the hardest lessons to learn in selling insurance was that 90% of the stuff keeping me from selling was in my head, had nothing to do with the client. This was all garbage that I was projecting onto the client, like what they thought or what their assumptions were or what their motivations were versus, you know, what that client actually wanted, you know? And getting past that or kind of detaching from the outcome, I guess is probably a better way to put it, is once you kind of figure that out, man, you ascend to a whole nother level in a sales position, especially in our industry.

I think you have to be brave enough to tell people the truth. And I think that's the difference in kind of that order taker mentality that exists in our industry and really being an advisor, a person that is looking out for not only the interest of the business owner, which is obviously the primary goal. But secondly, the interest of the employee and making sure that, you know, the employee is taken care of, and at least in my experience, I think that people, business owners, especially, they respect when you push back on them a little bit. They respect that you think enough of yourself and your position and your job to be able to tell them what they need to do from a recommendation standpoint. Because, you know, it's no different than, I was thinking about this, right?

You go to the doctor's office and the doctor says, hey, you need cholesterol medicine. People grumble about that all the time. Nobody wants to take medicine every single day. I mean, knock on wood, I don't take any medicine, thank goodness. But, like, people, they don't want to take medicine.

And they think, oh, I'm young, I feel fine, I don't want to take this medicine. But the doctors over there, they're looking at their blood work and they're saying, hey, you really need to take this medicine. And so people, they take their medicine because they know it's what's best for them. And those doctors, they have to be bold enough to say, look, you might have a real problem if you don't take this medicine. Let me tell you the road that this is going to go down.

You know, your arteries are going to get clogged up. You may end up having a stroke. You may end up having a heart attack, heart disease, all these different problems that happens that if this stuff builds up in your heart. So you've got to do something about it. And ultimately, most people, they respond to that and they do the right thing.

Or they modify their lifestyle, right? And they eat different, they exercise, they spend time working on themselves. And so the same thing is true. I mean, we just have to be bold enough to look at somebody and say, I know that you don't believe me, but ransomware attacks, they happen every single day, every single day. And so not only are you going to be down trying to get your data back up, but you're going to have to go figure out how to get some Bitcoin or something like that to be able to pay that ransom.

And I think people respect that. And that's really how I've always operated, out of just a place of trying to speak with authority, you know, when I talk and not be an order taker. I think the ability to walk away from a deal that doesn't make sense to you is a powerful thing. Yeah, so I'll give you, I'll just pile on to what you're saying, because I couldn't agree more. I get a lot of questions about our business model, which is, which is unique in many ways.

We've only met two of our customers in person ever in two years. And a lot of people will say things like, well, how do you, you know, what about the relationship? Insurance is about relationships. It's about relationships. You're not building relationships.

Well, I wholly and 100% agree that insurance is about relationships. I just don't agree that you have to breathe the same air to develop a relationship. So how we establish what you're saying digitally is by over communicating and being highly transparent. So what I'll say to the customers is this, this comes in during the part where we're setting expectations for a video proposal. So after I've gathered all the necessary information and I know that the next step is to go quote them, I'll say, well, I have all the information I need.

The next, I'm going to explain to you the next step in this process. So, so what comes next now that I've, I've gathered all this info, I don't want you to think it's just going out into the ether. We're going to take this information and I already have a, I already have a pretty good feel for the markets that we should go to based on what we've discussed, but we're going to hit all the markets that we have and make sure we have a good feel for coverage and price. We're going to come back with our recommendation to you and how we deliver that. Is in a video proposal.

And they may have a question about that. And I just say, look, it's super easy to get into. We use neoteric agent just for anyone who's listening. There's a bunch out there. That's the one we use had had perfectly fine success with that.

I said, it's, it's, it's, you're going to get an email from me and you're going to log into this website and it's super easy to get in. So, so don't even worry about that. It's super easy. But what you're going to get is this, this email that it's got three parts. It's got a video, which I hopefully you'll watch two, two to five minutes tops.

You're going to get a high level breakdown of what I found. And then you're going to actually be able to download the, the reports right from the carrier. Now there's a reason that we give carrier reports. Now I'm breaking the fourth wall and I'm talking to you, the audience, not my customer. There's a reason we give carrier reports and not our own proposals.

And the reason is it makes it feel more real. If I were to take now again, middle market different, we're talking about 25,000 in premium and under vast majority of our accounts. So the reason that I do that is I want them to feel like they have all the inside baseball that we have, right? If I were to take it and scrape it and put in my own proposal, they could be going, well, shit, this, you know, who knows if this is real? This is something this guy put together, right?

But because it's a printout, some of them are ugly. Some of them are nice, depending on the carrier. It doesn't matter. I don't care. I don't even rename them on purpose.

I want it to feel like it came right from the carrier because what I, because now I'm, now I'm not breaking the fourth wall. I'm going back to, this is what I say to my customer. I say, the reason that we do this is I want you to have as much power as I have. I said, I said, most insurance agents are going to withhold the information, the proposal, until they have a chance to box you into a corner, right? To get you sitting at your desk or on the phone.

And then they drop the proposal on you because they feel like in that moment, they're going to be able to convince you that you should purchase this thing. That's not what I do. What we, what I'm going to do is give you what I think you should have based on almost 20 years of experience. And you have all the information I have. So the next time we get on the phone, we can have an honest, straightforward discussion where you have all the information that I have.

How's that sound? Ryan, that sounds great. Awesome. You'll have that from me in a couple of days. Done.

Now what happens? Okay. So, so what I've just done, and I always say, I want you to have as much power as I have because people fucking love that. Right. Because who doesn't want to have power?

It's like, it's like the used car salesman who doesn't try to sell you every single car that you walk by. That's the whole point, right? Is you now know everything I know. So when we get on the phone, we can talk openly and honestly about your questions. One, it drastically reduces the amount of time we spend on the call because they've already watched the video in most cases, three times.

Right. So the average is like 2.3 times. When I send a video proposal out, people usually watch the video two times or three times. And, and I'll say more as I've gotten better at doing the video proposals, what ends up happening is they don't even want to have a phone call. They just email me back and go, Hey, can I do monthly payments?

Yes. Okay. We're in done. Yeah. I mean, I think what you've done and I do this in middle market is I call the next move.

Like we, we should be willing just to say, Hey, here's what's going to happen next. Yeah. I'll give you a great example. So, uh, we hired a new producer in our, in our office and he was working on, or is currently working on an account that's with a direct writer. And so I told him, I said, look, this, this is a direct writer.

Uh, you know, we can't be, or this, we got to go in, we got to quote this thing. But I said, here's what you need to ask them. You need to ask them how many times have they tried to sell you life insurance? And he said, he's like, why is that? I said, because I know people that used to work for this company.

Okay. And this particular company, they are a life insurance company that sells PNC insurance. It doesn't matter what you say, all of their awards, all of their stuff. So it's gotta be Steve farm. It's well, no, it's not them, but, but commercial lines only care.

All right. So, so they say, Hey, we're going to, you know, how many times have they tried to sell you life insurance? And he went in and he asked the question, he said, how many times have they tried to sell you life insurance? And they said, they try to send me life insurance every single time they walk in the door, a whole life insurance policy. I said, and then I said, the next question you need to say is how often do they talk about what you're actually there to talk about, which is your business insurance.

And he asked him that question. They're like, never. They just want to sell the next policy. I said, I said, exactly. And so when we had our coaching call after that, I said, this is what I call calling the next move.

You just say, this is what the person's going to do. Now you're, you're like Isaiah, the prophet, you tell them what's going to happen. Then it happens. And then you look like you're the hero in the story and it is, and it's because you're transparent about what's going to happen next and whoever else is dealing with you, they're just trying to get to the next sale. And it doesn't matter if it's middle market, it doesn't matter if it's personal lines, it doesn't matter if it's small commercial, you're just calling the next step.

And then they're digging, they're digging their own grave because they're doing every single move that you predicted. What's up guys. Sorry to take you away from the episode, but as you know, we do not run ads on this show in an exchange for that. I need your help. If you're loving this episode, if you enjoy this podcast, whether you're watching on YouTube or you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, I would love for you to subscribe, share, comment.

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It just, to me, the days, and I used to say this 10 years ago when I was talking about content marketing, the days of us as insurance professionals being the gatekeepers to information are over. It is over. We're not the gatekeepers to insurance information. They can Google and find everything we know, everything that we think is intrinsic knowledge that's up in our brains, and we're so f***ing smart. They can Google it and find it out.

Now, granted, could they apply it as well as we can apply it? No, they're not professional. They haven't done this for a career. But can they know it? Sure they can.

So for us to still act in an insurance transaction in this, like, wedgie-style, bait-and-switch, but, like, you know, you're, you know, hey, I'm not going to tell you when I'm going to call you back, and when I call you back, I'm not going to give you the quote number because you might take it and BOR. Screw that. They can take my whole proposal and BOR to their current agent if they want. You know why? Because if they do that, they were not a good fit for us.

That means they would have been a terrible client. And the other side of it is, and this talks to your, like, abundance versus scarcity mindset, is, like, we generate so many frigging leads because we're constantly doing the work, right? In our marketplace, for you guys, it's the same, just maybe less volume, but same kind of flow for a middle market transaction. So don't, I'm not talking you can't do it in one way or the other just for us. We constantly have new leads coming in.

So if we just work our process and we set expectations and we deliver on the expectations that we set, and we continually do that with someone and ask the right questions throughout the process and never make them feel like they're boxed in, like they're a partnership. It's a partnership, right? It's a service request that ends with a transaction versus a sale. And that small nuance, I think, plays a large role in how we treat people, right? Because our service team is loving and caring and compassionate and patient.

Our sales team is like, buy this freaking policy now or I'm going to lose my mind. But if you can just switch that mentality to more of a service mindset where at the end of the process, you're transacting a policy versus, you know, or a BOR or whatever versus doing a car change, I feel like that small tweak with good flow, you get the clients you should have that fit your process, the ones that don't automatically fall out and you just keep cranking. And I feel like that methodology can be applied to every line, every vertical, every geographic region in our country. There's nothing like seeing the light bulb pop on in somebody's eyes. When you're talking to them, whether it's on Zoom or whether it's in person.

I mean, a lot of people probably don't know this about us, but I mean, we operate in 23 different states. And not that we have offices there, we don't have producers there, but I have clients in 23 different states. So I spend a lot of time on Zoom and any other, you know, video conferencing app and talk to people all day, every single day. And but it's always the same when you can provide somebody, I think, with enough education to make their own decision and come to their own conclusion and choose to do business with you, then you're going to keep that client for a lot longer. Again, I'll knock on wood, but, you know, one, one's a pretty, pretty hefty day for me.

And I have not received one single loss run request. I'm not sure that I've received a loss run request in 2021, except for somebody that's looking to sell their company to a private equity firm. One, I went to a class like very early on in my, in my career with Scott Addis and Scott's kind of like the OG sales trainer, been around forever and ever and ever. And it was up at Cincinnati home office. And like, you know, I remember like I ate dinner next to the JF share.

He was sitting right next to me and he was the president insurance company forever. And at the time I was so young in the business, I was, I was like, Hey, Jeff, I'm Josh Gurley. Hey, what do you do? And he was like, Oh, I work in the, I work in the PNC side. And then I go Google him and he's like the Cincinnati, you know, he's the king of the kingdom.

Yeah. Yeah. He's like the king of the kingdom or whatever. But at this thing, Scott, he, you know, he broke it down and I won't say it as good as he does, but you know, he basically talks about this whole thing's like four steps, right? I mean, collect some information, you come up with a strategy, you implement the strategy, and then you monitor the strategy that, I mean, that's what you do in the business.

But I think the difference in what I do and sounds like what you do is I tell them, I tell people, look, you can do this with anybody that you want to do it with. If I'm bringing in a quote from Cincinnati, I'll say, you can do this with anybody that represents Cincinnati, anybody you can do this with, you know, I hope that you do this with me. And I think, you know, to your point, I mean, you give them that choice because you want them to choose you freely. And I think when people, they choose you freely and you're not just selling them to get on to the next thing, I think your retention goes, goes through the roof. And that'll bring me to my next point.

And I don't know. This could be a five. We didn't get to number five yet. Well, I think I really learned a lot about technology this year. All right.

And this may be a controversial statement that I'm going to make. But for me, technology is an add-on. Like, you know, what we talked about, about the client relationship, about the education, you know, just being that person that acts in utmost good faith. It's in the first page of the book that you learn insurance in. It says this is a business built on utmost good faith.

So everything else is just an add-on, right? Everything else is an add-on. And so everybody was talking about, you've got to have this tool or that tool or whatever. But at the end of the day, if you were to put a saw in my hand, right, or you could put me in a woodshop. We have a client that has a woodshop at his house that costs like $400,000, okay?

It's got every tool that you could ever imagine having inside of this thing. But if you could take me in the most beautiful piece of white oak wood and say, make a table, make whatever. Dude, what would come out of that place would be kindergarten. It would look like something that a five-year-old made because I have zero skills at doing woodworking. And so I think the same thing can be, you know, true a lot of times is that we don't really, you know, look at what's, you know, right in front of us.

So the stuff that we use in my agency is we're on Applied Epic. That's just what we do. It's great for commercial lines. Great for the way that we, you know, transact business. And we're on Salesforce.

And so we use Salesforce to attract and find new clients. We don't really use it on the back end for, you know, client, you know, reaching out to them or anything like that. And I'm not really sure that's even all that important with the kind of business that we write. Like, I think a lot of the stuff that we write is, should be more, more like manual touch anyway, because somebody commented on something, you know, they were talking about this. And I made a comment and it was like, hey, well, your margins are probably higher than other people because you're writing larger accounts, which is true.

So we can afford to be a little bit more hands-on because there's not as many accounts to go around. But, like, one of the things that I realized was, like, I don't have to have every, like, cool gadget that every other person has. I just have to have, like, what works for me. You know, when I play, I played music professionally for some length of time. And so guitars have all these, like, guitar pedal boards.

And there was a time when I thought, like, I need to have every guitar effects pedal so I can sound like, you know, anybody from the edge of U2 to Jimi Hendrix to whoever else. Like, I need every tool that they make. And so I used to carry around this pedal board that had, like, 20 different things on it. And I started thinking to myself, I was like, I don't even use this stuff. And in the back of my mind, I would say, but I might one day, so I need to go ahead and have it.

And then one day, I just said, you know what, I'm done with this. Like, and so I literally keep my guitars and stuff in my office right now. And so underneath my desk, there's a pedal board under my desk that has probably five things on it. But all the things that I have are, like, top of the line. It's, like, the best stuff that money can buy is what I have.

But I only have, like, four or five things. And so, like, I just, it's just funny how I went through the same thing when it came to my music career. And then I get in the insurance business. And it's, like, I got to have all this stuff. And then I woke up one day, I was like, no, I don't.

No, I don't. I don't have to have all this stuff. We send out Georgetown cupcakes, all right? It's a cupcake place in Washington, D.C., like, one of the most famous cupcake places in America. They got 5,000 or 10,000, you know, five-star Google reviews.

They're everywhere. And so it's, like, $55 a dozen to send out. And so instead of me buying, you know, some kind of $1,000 a month, you know, customer retention software or whatever, like, I send out 20 dozen cupcakes a month. And it's not tied to a holiday. It's not tied to whatever.

It's just like, hey, I was thinking about you. I had a client this week. He made this joke. And it was hilarious because a lot of people balled into it, including me. And, again, this guy is in Oregon.

And so Jack's Facebook, it said, Jack is 116 years old today. Well, Jack's, like, 60. And so all these people were telling him happy birthday. And I was like, wouldn't this be funny? And I knew it wasn't his birthday because I got his driver's license in our system.

But I said, wouldn't it be funny to send him some cupcakes and say happy 116th birthday? So right then, we were like, boom, Georgetown, you know, cupcakes, overnight, Oregon. And we flew them all the way across the country. They got to his office the next day. And he sent me a text.

He called me. It was hilarious. He loved it. It had nothing to do with his birthday. But it was just the fact that we were thinking about him.

And so, you know, I would just say, if anybody's listening, like, if it makes more sense to spend $1,000 a month on cupcakes, go do it. That's a great tool. And, you know, that may be controversial, but that's just how I feel about it. I don't think it's controversial. I think that it's the maturation of the space.

I think that, you know, and we all, dude, we've all fallen prey to it. I think it's a natural evolution that everyone goes through in every piece of their life. I think you always, you know, if you golf, you think, I got to have the most badass set of golf clubs. And then you realize that you don't. You're going to stink regardless.

Or be good regardless. You know what I mean? I mean, my friends that are good pick up wooden clubs that their, you know, grandfather had in his bag from 100 years ago. And they hit shots right down the middle. And I can't, you know, for me, I'm hitting it in the woods regardless.

So, you know, I think that, I think I completely agree with you. It's easy when things aren't going well or you're not producing as much as you would like. Or you find yourself in an envy of someone and their production, or at least their perceived production online, that you start chasing the next, you know, what's the next tool that's going to get me there? And, you know, I have been guilty of this. I mean, I've had five CRMs.

This is my second, I'm on second agency management system. And I've only been around for two years. You know, I've tried a million tools. I haven't changed in a year. I'm proud of that.

But I agree with you. I think, I think what I definitely agree with, not that I'm executing on this today, but what I definitely agree with is buy best in class. Buy best in class tools for the tools that you need, because you get what you pay for, you know, you absolutely get what you pay for. You know, I use NowSerts as an agency management system, and it's very cheap. And they'll have two hours, you know, from 10 a.m.

Eastern to noon Eastern on a Tuesday, they'll just go down. And they'll send a Facebook message. Hey, guys, like servers are down. Hopefully, they'll be back up soon. And you're like, oh, yeah.

So my agency management system doesn't work for two hours. They're in the middle of a workday. You know, like that's, doesn't happen with Epic. It doesn't happen with others. I know it just happened to AMS 360 the other day.

But, you know, you get what you pay for. And I think maximize the tools that you use versus using like 5% of 20 tools, right? Like pick one tool and absolutely pin max your usage of it and then move on to the next thing. There's only so many things that we actually need, man. There's only, we just don't need that much.

Well, that's what we do with Salesforce because our annual spend on Salesforce between like the software and the development is probably $40,000. And so I just say, let's have a system that is just rock star for what we're trying to do. So we pay the development costs. We have the, you know, the email marketing system that goes along with it. We have the lead scoring.

We have all the tracking that we do online. And then when I'm prospecting, hey, I know who's the most likely person to answer the phone. And that's half the battle, right? Is knowing who's your most likely customer. So, but the other thing I want to say about that is like, I think that what people need to understand about technology is that you should do what works for you.

My agency is not a high volume personalized agency. Like we haven't been for a long time, probably not going to be for the future. I mean, so a lot of the, a lot of those things are not super important to us. Our agency is not a high volume, small commercial agency. So the ability or the need to automate certain things, you know, it's, it's just not that important to us.

Now, there are some other people that probably need all of those things in their agency, in their business, but they have a legitimate reason for needing those things. And I just don't think that our agency, you know, does at this moment, right? What's the most important thing for our agency is the fact that we can have CSR 24 online for our people to go do their certificates if they want to, for us to deliver the policies, endorsements. We have a really good sales tool from, uh, that manages our sales process and Salesforce. And then we have, you know, some other resources through some different vendors from HR safety, you know, self service portals and that type thing.

And so like, that's, what's really important to our clients. And so I just really think that like, everybody should figure out, okay, well, what is, what is really important for my client? What is really important for my agency? And I mean, that's half the reason that I'm, that I'm going through this year in review right now. And this, you know, living your best year ever is like, Hey, what do I need to add?

What, what do I need to cut out? You know? And then the other thing is like just developing my own, I think, uh, leadership, you know, and, and I'm starting to learn a lot. Um, that just because I'm a good producer and I, and I would label myself as a good producer, you know, I mean, if you just open up the best practices guide and you see, well, what is the average producer produced in this country? You know, I produce a fair amount more than that.

So I would consider myself a, you know, certainly above average producer. Um, and so, but that does not necessarily mean that I can impart my knowledge on other people in my organization or train other producers in my organization. So that's when I've, I've, I've been really spending a lot of time, like I'm reading the book traction right now and trying to, to grow the leadership side. And I think that's just as important as anything else. Boom.

There it is. I think that's just as important as anything else that we could do is, is develop leadership, develop our people, you know, and help them be more and more efficient and just not necessarily rely on the computer or the software to do it for us. Yeah, this is, um, so one of the things that I became, you know, self-aware of, uh, in the second iteration of my producing or agency career here is that I'm not a great person, but I made better. I, I'm certainly not a great producer. I may be a good producer, but I don't love producing.

I don't love it. It doesn't, um, you know, it doesn't get me jacked up. You know, I've written a policy every single day this week. One day I wrote two, I could give two shits. I wouldn't even list them, any of them as a highlight of my week.

Um, cause I just don't care to me. What, what, what I had to, and again, this is speaking to what you're saying is you kind of have to figure out what your strengths are. It might mean that you should never be the person who's doing that stuff that you just said. I mean, honestly, if you're a tremendous producer, an absolutely tremendous top flight producer, why would you ever stop? And you like it, right?

And you like it. Let's, if that's the case, why would you ever stop doing that? Just go fucking hire a COO who do, who will do all that stuff for you. Like, don't, why would you take yourself out of the thing that you would, and I'm not, I'm not trying to say you specifically. I'm talking in general, but why take yourself out of the thing that you love and are good at and are literally probably world class at to a certain extent.

And go, now I need to learn all these other skills to be this thing that I feel like I should be, but, but maybe isn't even what you want to do. And maybe you do want to do that. I'm not saying you don't, you know, and I, and I had to have that conversation with myself because I, I could produce, I could, I absolutely could. I just, to me, my value, every policy that I write, I consider a loss in our agency. Like that's, that was a loss.

Like that's time that I could have been working on our onboarding process. I could have been refining how, you know, who we're quoting, how we're quoting them, getting a better feel for that, digging deeper into new markets that we need. And, you know, there's a million things that are more where, where I, where I specialize in than, than that thing. And, and if I were to say, if I were to go try to teach one of my current producers, we have three producers, if I were to try to teach them how to produce like you can, I would be doing them a disservice. Cause I don't know that I can, that I'm even as good at them as, as at that stuff.

So it's, you know, I, I feel like we all have to figure out and I'm not saying you shouldn't do what you're doing. Cause, cause you should, if that's what you feel is right. But I think it's worth considering. And this goes to like your technology thing, right? Like feeling pressure to take on tech.

You probably feel pressure to lead dude. I do not. I think it is a misnomer that just because you're the owner, you also have to be the day-to-day leader. I think that's a complete misnomer. I think as the owner, the, the, the, the, or an owner, the freedom that you get is to choose to do whatever it is that you want to do and be wherever it is that you add the most value and find someone else to do all the other shit that you, that isn't either what you want to do or something that you're good at.

And, um, you know, I, I don't, you know, I feel zero pressure to be a producer. And when I walk into a room full of agency owners, I know that they look at me like I'm freaking crazy. I've sat at a table before and said, every policy I sell is a loss and watch guys literally stink. I mean, like, what's wrong with this guy's not a really, what's he, you know, what's he talking about? I've watched literally their eyebrows, that, that face, no one watching can see, but that face that I just did, I have seen that face from people.

When I say that, and it's because I know at best, I'm a good producer at best that that's me on my best day. I'm a good producer. I have never been a great producer, nor will I ever be. And so my, that, what that tells me is my value to the organization is not production. It's something else.

And, you know, that's why I do everything I can not to produce. You know what my, one of my business partners, he said something to me recently that man, it hit me like a ton of bricks. And he said, and this is why I'm, this is what the whole reason that I'm reading the book. He said, do you know what the most valuable thing in the insurance industry is? And I said, my ability to produce new accounts.

And that's really, that's what I thought for a long time. But he said, it's not the most valuable thing. He said, equity is the most important thing in the insurance business, right? Building your balance sheet is one of the most, is the most important thing in the insurance industry. Because we can produce a book of business.

We can create cash flow through that, through that. And I've certainly done that. And I've enjoyed that. And I've had a lot of fun doing that. It's been awesome.

I mean, I've gotten to go all different kind of places, trade shows, all over the country. It's been a lot of fun for me. In fact, I'm going to Iowa next week. So Sunday, I'm going to Iowa, and I'm going to doing a little tour through there and through Missouri and going to see some clients and some prospects. And that's a lot of fun.

But I think what you're really saying is you're trying to build the equity of the business. You're trying to build the value of the company. And I think as an agency owner, whether you own 100% or whether you're a minority, I'm a minority owner in my agency. So it's not like I'm the president or anything like that. But what can I do to help grow that balance sheet?

And so if one day I end up owning a super significant portion of our agency, then that'll be the same priority. But I mean, right now, the most valuable asset that sits on my personal balance sheet is my agency. That's it. That's the most valuable thing I have. And so I think from an ownership perspective, if growing the value of your agency is through personal production and you can do that, then do it.

Yeah. If it's through creating systems for other people to produce, then do that. There's no right way to do this. 100%. There's no wrong way to do this.

I mean, I was talking. I disagree with that second part. There's absolutely a wrong way to do it. I think it is. I think it's your point.

I think to the point that you just made, the wrong way to do this is to put yourself in a position that you think you should be in, that you shouldn't actually be in. Like you're reading IAOA posts and you feel pressure to do this or to do that when really you know your value is here or there, right? Like I feel like that is the cardinal mistake is here's a common example. The cardinal mistake that I see is agency principal is a rock star producer, just has all the connections in town, knows the coverage, knows the carriers, crushes business, does a great job. Customers love them, love her, whatever, just dominates, never hires an operations person, never gets a COO, never finds the partner to run the business.

And what happens is outside of that agency owner's personal production, the rest of the agency is in shambles. And you see that over and over and over and over again. And it's, it's, they never, there was never enough self-awareness in the moment to say, I'm just going to freaking crush forever and build a team around me that allows me to do that. And that, that to me is the mistake or the great producer who stops producing. And I'm not saying this is what you're doing, stops producing to go chase technology and process, right?

Like you're a great producer, keep producing. I don't know. That's my, that's my thought process. Well, I guess what I mean is like, when I say there's not a wrong way, let me explain that. Well, you're being very nice.

I get it. You're Southern. I understand. Well, I mean, what I mean by that is, all right. So a year ago I was in St.

Louis. All right. I've got a client that's not too far from there. I was in St. Louis.

You know, Jason Cass is not far from St. Louis. And so Carruthers was going up there to hang out with Jason for a day or two. And it just happened to be like the same, the same day. All right.

And so there was a guy that we ended up meeting up in the lobby of a hotel. And we just were all, we're all just talking. And the guy that was already in St. Louis was there and he was talking and he was telling me, he was a personalized guy. And he was talking about getting into commercial insurance.

And I said, man, tell me about your agency. And I got to be honest with you. I expected him to say that he was like a one-man shop. I mean, to hear the guy talk. He was so humble.

But then he drops these. I mean, they got like a freaking zillion employees and like a gazillion dollars in revenue in personal lines. And I just told the guy, I said, look, I said, you may think that you're doing something wrong, okay? But, but dude, you are crushing. You are crushing.

I said, if you're writing this much personal lines, if your agency is like $3 million in personal lines revenue, like commission, why don't you just do more of that? Like, why would you stop doing that and decide I want to be a middle market insurance agency? Like, no way, man. I would just, I was like, I would just keep doing what you're doing. I mean, and that's, that's just me.

And so I was just trying to encourage him to say, hey, you're not doing anything wrong, dude. You're doing everything right. Yeah, I think, dude, I think, I think this has kind of been a, a, a narrative throughout this conversation has been, it is, it is very easy. And this is a life thing too, right? This is why we make a lot of the bad decisions that we make throughout our life, not just in insurance, but we look out at the world and we go, man, I get this thing I'm doing right now.

Ah, man, geez, I'd love to be doing that thing too. Or, you know, listen to this guy, he's selling life policies. I need to go get my life license and become a life expert or whatever. Right. Or man, if we only had text automated text messages that can't, you know, you know, all this different stuff.

When, you know, I think, I think a big part of it is, is, you know, I said this before, but I think a big part of it is self-awareness and just, just double into your strengths. Like, what are you good at? What are you good at? If you're good at that thing, be the absolute tippy top world-class best at that thing. If you can be it before you ever consider moving into other spaces.

And, you know, I've learned this lesson the hard way so many times in my career. And then I had to learn it again, probably the first year that Rogue existed when I made a million bad decisions and pivoted 15 times. And like, you know, where we are today, you know, this episode is going to come out after an episode that I kind of explain, you know, the maturation of where we are, which isn't necessarily different just as we continue to evolve in what we're doing. So you can go back and listen to that. But, you know, at heart, you know, I'm a hype man.

I support people. I get people jacked up. I put them on the path. You know, that's, that's, that's what, what I do. I'm, I'm good at process.

I'm good at getting people excited about things. I'm good at culture. I'm not a great insurance guy. I'm, I'm not like, you know what I mean? You know more in your left pinky finger about insurance than I probably do.

Right. You know, enough, enough to be dangerous, but. You know, I have to own that. That's not who I'm going to be. And I think, you know, you, we all have to figure out that thing.

And once you figure out what your thing is and you double into it, that's how you really get to the next level. Cause then other opportunities do come, right? Like you may find from being the absolute best and pinning your niche or, or a couple niches that there's this third niche that you can get into because it's a natural fit and it's easy. And, and they're, they're aligned with the business you're already in, but the only way you get to kind of that materializes in a meaningful way is if you really pinned in that one place. And I feel like how we get in trouble is we get like kind of good at something and we hit our first real plateau and then we go, ah, this thing's dead.

I got to go do something else. And it's like, no, you just hit the first of like 17 plateaus on the way to being great. I don't know. I don't know if that makes sense or not, but. No, I mean, I mean, it definitely does.

I mean, I know that that's just what I tell people all the time is just like, Hey, you do the thing that you're really good at and then everything else, you know, every, everything else is going to work out and you don't have to self-promote that hard because people can see through the bullshit. If you want to know the truth, like they can see, they can see people that are really genuine and they, you know, really want to help other people. And, and, and that's in, I mean, that's just all over the place. I mean, it's just kind of like the podcast that people listen to the most insurance people listen to the most are the ones that they feel like people are just being real. And the people that buy these products from us that we create these relationships with, they, they want to deal with the people that are, that are real.

And so that's why I've just always kind of been a cut to the chase kind of guy and, you know, and just not been a really fancy word, you know, salesperson. And so I don't know, man, I don't know. I can, I can tell you this. I've enjoyed talking about this topic. Yeah.

So I want to be respectful of your time, but real quick, you only got through the first five. What was number six on the list? Well, number six is something that I think that everybody should do. All right. I mean, golly, it's, it's Christmas time.

I don't know if it's the fact that I've been listening to the counting crows long December on repeat, or if it's just the fact that, you know, we went and saw Santa Claus last night. I don't really know, but I want to end this the way that I end everything, every talk I've ever given, everything I've ever done. And this is really one of the things that I'm the most grateful for is that no matter what I have done throughout this year, I have not delegated the things that are the most important to me. And I'll give you an example. I'll give you three things.

All right. So the main, the big three gifts that we got our kids for Christmas this year is we got a GoPro. All right. I got my kids a GoPro. Thank goodness.

They're like six and three and they can't listen to this. Got him a GoPro because my son loves to swing his golf club. He loves to be outside. He loves to make crazy videos and stuff. So I got a GoPro so we can take it to the beach and do family stuff together.

All right. I got my kids a 3d printer. My daughter loves little jewelry and all this kind of stuff she can, she can make. So she's got a 3d printer and we got them this big, like massive jungle gym that my neighbor who is awesome is going to let me put together inside of his garage and keep inside of his garage until Christmas day. And so the reason that we did those things is because we like to do stuff that's active.

We like to do stuff where we're not just sitting in the house all day long and, and, and get out and, and move around, whether it's using our mind or whether it's using our body. But I would tell everybody that's, that's listening. And I set it up to say this is that there's, there's two things that you can't delegate. I don't, I don't care. Two things you can't delegate.

You can't automate. And the first one is the relationship that you have with your spouse. I mean, that's the most important thing on the planet is that you have to walk in every day, kiss your wife or your husband before you kiss your kids. If I could give people one piece of advice, do that. Kiss your wife or husband before you kiss your kids.

All right. That's where it all starts. Don't, don't try to make that relationship not as important as something else. And the second one is the relationship with your children. You can't delegate that nobody else can do that job, but you.

And so if you're planning for next year, and this may come out in 2022, but for 2021, if you're planning for next year, like no matter what, don't delegate those things. Don't, don't put those things to the side, make those things a priority plan out that time with your family. It's the most important thing that you have. The girl that I sat next to in college orientation has got incurable bone cancer. It's crazy, incurable bone cancer.

And so for her, I mean, she spent this time, became a nurse practitioner and like at the end of the day, she's a 37 year old that has a terminal disease. And so you just, I think you just have to keep it all in perspective and say, this is fun. This is something that I get to do, but the most important thing is not what you do, but who you raise. Amen to that, man. Amen to that a hundred percent.

That's a great way to end it, dude. I appreciate you so much. Getting to know you and the conversations that we've haven't shared and never will and shouldn't over the course of the last year plus have been very meaningful to me. And it's just such a pleasure to have you on the show, Bribe. I'm so happy for your success and thank you for sharing what you have with us and wish you nothing but the best and Merry Christmas and a happy new year and crush 2022, right?

Same to you, my friend. Same to you. Close twice as many deals by this time next week. Sound impossible? It's not.

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That's masteroftheclosed.com. Do it today. Happy holidays. Want to give your host a gift? Consider subscribing, rating, and reviewing the show this holiday season.

It really helps the show grow. From all of us at Believe, have a Merry Christmas, everyone, and a happy holiday. If you like the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening. you