Learn This Skill If You Want to Build an Audience | Shawn Anthony

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The Ryan Hanley Show shares the original ideas, habits, and mindsets of world-class original thinkers you can use to produce extraordinary results in your life and business. This is the way. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. Today we have an incredible conversation for you with Sean Anthony, the founder of Pod Pro Max, a talent management company that helps place incredible individuals on podcasts like this show. So I actually work with them.

Their, uh, talent managers are incredible, and some of the fantastic guests that we've had on the show recently are because of the relationship that I've developed with Sean and his team, and they continually deliver epic guests with incredible stories and tons of value to deliver to you guys. Now, what we dive into in this episode is the podcast business. So not just how to create a podcast. All that you can find on YouTube. I'm talking about the business of podcasting.

What does it look like? How do we grow? How do we monetize? Where do we find opportunities to expand our brand? How do we launch our own products?

Sean is the man when it comes to the business of podcasting. Incredibly connected, dynamic. He's got his own podcast, which is wonderful and blasting up the charts. Uh, frankly, we compete to a certain extent in the podcast industry, and I love that, and I, I love Sean's insight. I love his energy.

And if you are considering a podcast or have a podcast yourself, this is an episode you do not want to miss. If this is your first time here, would love for you to subscribe, whether you're listening on Apple, Spotify, or wherever, or if you're watching on YouTube. Guys, if you have thoughts, feelings, comments, leave them either in the review section of wherever you're listening or go to YouTube and leave a comment or a question in the YouTube comments. Whenever someone does that, I draw the guest back in, and that guest, 99% of the time, will answer your questions directly. I appreciate the hell out of you for listening to this show.

I know you have many options in where you spend your time, and I love that you choose to spend it with this podcast. Let's get on to Sean Anthony. Dude, I've been excited to chat with you for a while. I've, you know, having your name, uh, uh, coming up the last couple weeks because you're the, you're the podcast guy, man. I mean, you're, you're the, you're the, you're the podcast pro.

Like, you guys, you know this game. Obviously, I love it, but it's your business. So I, I'm, I'm, I'm always interested in this question when I talk to podcasters. Like, this is a commitment. It's a, it's a job, whether it's a hobby or you're, or not, right?

Yeah. Like, this is something you have to do. You have to take it seriously. What was it about podcasting in particular that just drew you in and caught your attention? Well, I think, one, it just gave me a stage.

If you're somebody right now that is struggling to get on a platform, to be speaking in front of large audiences, you can plug up the microphone and be able to touch thousands in many different countries. And I think having that stage to either express something that you're passionate about or either tell the world something you're good at is, is extremely important. I think that's what attracted me to podcasting. Are you a believer that everybody should have a podcast, or do you have, do you have a different take? I believe everyone should not have a podcast.

I believe, I, I, I believe, though, uh, I strongly believe, though, everybody should be a guest on a podcast. What happens in life is that you're gonna become really good at something, and when you become really good at something, you need to tell somebody about it. And what better stage to be on than a podcast where there's an expert asking you questions, where you can show your expertise, but also stand out as an authority? One of the things that I've found ... Uh, I completely agree with you.

One of the things I've found is when I'm a guest on other podcasts, I say things in a different way than I say them when I'm the host. Mm. And I like that. Like, I catch myself explaining, maybe telling a story differently or explaining a part of my belief or past or whatever in a different way, and I'm like, "Ooh." S- sometimes, like, "Ooh, I, I like the way I just said that."

Like, I have never said it that way before 'cause when you're in host mode- Mm-hmm ... you know, I like, I, I probably ... One of the, one other piece of feedback that I get all the time, maybe more criticism, is that I, uh, I talk too much. But I'm like, this is a conversation. Like, I wanna be here with you and, and have this conversation. And it's funny how when, when someone's asking you questions, you will frame things differently than when you're the one asking the ho- you're the one, the host, that's normally asking the questions.

You find that? Absolutely. Your mind is trained a certain way where your mind is more relaxed to give your honest thoughts and opinions when you aren't thinking about, "What question could I ask them?" Or, "How can I make it entertaining?" Or, "How do I play off the answer they just gave?"

So you're actually, um, your- it's almost like basketball i- in that point where you're, you're in a, a practice-type environment, and there's nobody guarding you when you are the guest. You're literally just taking shots. You're literally just ge- getting into the right spot and learning where your hot spots are and your hot zones are. Um, so I would 100% agree there is a complete difference, uh, when you're a guest versus when you're a host. But also, you gotta prepare different, right?

Uh, as a, a host of a show, you gotta have an idea of, "Okay, who's this person in front of me? What have they accomplished? What have they may have never said on a podcast before that I can get out of them?" Whereas when you're the guest, you're just trying to, you know, add value to someone's audience after you understand who their audience is. Dealing with as much guest talent and host talent as you have, what makes a great podcast?

What, what are the core pieces of a podcast that people actually wanna listen to and they come back to over and over again? I think they really want a host or a cohost or what may have you, whoever's hosting that show, they wanna feel like they're on the couch with them. They wanna feel like they're in the room with them. They wanna feel like there's, um, relevance, there's rela- relatability. They wanna feel as if this is a conversation that I'm just fortunate enough to be in a room with.

And I think a lot of the good podcasts are doing that in strategic ways. You notice a lotta shows now, they aren't even doing any intros. They're going right into it because that attention span has changed so much. Our mind is being trained to, you know, looking at 10-second, 15-second YouTube Shorts or Instagram Reels, right? So I, I would definitely 100%, uh, say that.

You know, I think that when we create content, we forget that we're not just competing against the other people in our genre or even the medium, right? Like, when you create a podcast... This is one of the things that opened my eyes up to what you just said. Uh, I was talking to a guest, and we were just m- middle of the conversation and kinda talking about content creation in general. And the...

He said, "You know, we have to remember that we're also competing against Netflix. We're competing against their kids. We're competing against their job. We're competing against their spouse or partner. We're comp-...

You know, we are... W- they're deciding, this individual is deciding to spend X amount of time with you versus everything else in their life, and why should they do that? And I think too often the podcasts that start and then fizzle out, often the hook is they, they aren't g- they aren't considering what's in it for me from the audience's perspective. Like, what is in it for that audience member? Why should they listen to you versus Joe Rogan or Mel Robbins or one of these other podcasts, like, or a YouTube show or just scroll through TikTok for an hour, right?

Like, like that, that is such a core piece of this puzzle, and it's so often skipped. 100%. I, I, I think, you know, uh, podcasting has changed. You know, when I started podcasting in 2018, videocast wasn't even a real big thing. Mm-hmm.

I remember when I interviewed Ryan Serhant, episode seven, which changed the trajectory of, of our entire show, which allowed us to go after the big names like Ed Mylett and many more, I remember mo- when we did that podcast, he even asked me, "Hey, do you wanna come to New York?" Or, "Hey, you know, uh, is this video? Is this over the phone?" It was just so foreign. And what I'm trying to get the audience right now to understand is podcasting has changed, and you do have to do what Ryan's talking about, figure out what is going to be the creativity, what are you gonna do differently.

And what I found out what works really, really successful is when the host is so curious. They're just so curious. They're almost asking selfish questions. And the selfish questions is what is really resonating with a lotta people listening to their show. They are the host, and so they want to know, because they're not sitting down with Sean Anthony.

They're not sitting down with some of the amazing people you've sat down with. So they want you to be a sponge and extract that from them. And, and I found that those are the podcasts that regardless of the big names, what really matters is how good of a conversation is happening, and I think that's the key. Yeah. You know, you- It's...

I find a disconnect with a host when the guest will say something, and then you'll have in your head, you'll start projecting out the next question that you wanna hear from that person. And the guest will, like, take you in a different direction. You're like, "Wait a minute. That conversation wasn't finished yet." Like, "There's, like, two or three more questions you could ask there," right?

And, and I think to your point, um, you know, and one of the things that I hope and, you know, people get out of this show is that I don't prepare questions for the show, right? I have a direction. I understand who the person is. I have a feel for where I would like to take them, but I'm always the most interested in, like, what's interesting on your brain today. And, like, I didn't actually...

This is the first time in probably months I didn't, I didn't ask you this question, 'cause we were talking about a whole bunch of other stuff before we went live. But, um, I normally ask the guest, like, "Did all my research. I know who you are. I- I'm excited. But, like, what's, what's hot on your brain right now?

Like, what's got you tuned up today? Not, like, like, in general, but, like, this moment. Did you just read an article? Like, what, what's got you tuned up?" And dude- Uh-huh ... the stuff that sometimes comes out is, like, completely off base.

And I think while maybe someone will come to the show for a certain reason, they wanna hear what that person has to say about the topic that they're most known for, and I always wanna get to that stuff- I feel like there's always these little pockets of interest that people have, and if we can pull that out, that makes your show unique. 'Cause now you got them to say something or talk about something that normally they don't, and that's a differentiator, and it only comes from the word that you said, curiosity. So I guess my question to you is, if there are, if there... And I'm sh- and I know there are podcast hosts listening to this show, how do they cultivate that curiosity? How do they make sure they bake that curiosity into their show if maybe they feel like they're not doing it enough right now? Well, they have to make sure that they're talking to people they actually wanna talk to- Yeah ... and they're not just talking to people to kinda meet a metric or a quota.

You know, you can kinda tell when they're, when someone's having a conversation they're interested in and a conversation where they're just trying to reach a benchmark. They're just trying to have another guest. And I always tell people, before you just have another guest, find out what topics that your audience really has- Are you tired of endless follow-ups and missed opportunities in your sales process? Chasing leads is a losing game. That's why I created the One Call Close system, a battle-tested sales system that uses behavioral psychology to close deals in just one call.

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Give them the strategy to whatever they're asking about. Do a little bit more of a deep dive on a very popular episode that worked in the past and now your thoughts are six months later, right? Maybe the world has changed, you know? Uh, I do like that question that you had about, you know, what's exciting you right now? Like, what's really, like, like getting you right now?

And I just thought about, as you were saying, literally, um, about an hour ago, you know, I just received a, a text message from one of my good friends, uh, who's really big in the social media space asking me to go to the White House to talk about branding and social media- Awesome ... and growth and, you know. So that's really exciting. Uh, a- and, and in the talent management space, uh, we, we brought on a, a new talent, uh, Back Fuel Podcast. Um, they're absolutely crushing it, um, with interviews with Joe Budden and, and so many more people. Um, so that's really exciting to me.

So I, I think, you know, whenever you're passionate about something, you're gonna naturally talk about it, and I think that's what we're doing here today. Yeah. I, I completely agree. I, I think I agree with the going off of your normal script, too. And what I mean by that is, like, this show is mostly business, entrepreneurship- Yep ... personal development, that kinda stuff.

Like, if you're, if you're energized and trying to get better at something and you can deliver, you know, deliver some insights, I, I'm interested in talking to you. But I have, um... We were talking a little bit about it before and I, and, uh, and, and so, uh, guys, you may not know this 'cause I just haven't said it yet, but Sean owns, uh, uh, Pod Pro Max, which in part, one of the many things you do is, um, talent pitches to podcast hosts like myself. And one of your people reached out to me probably three or four months ago and had a guest reque- had a guest, and the guest was awesome, dialed in, loved it. I get so many pitches, a dozen pitches a day, and that is not a joke.

I get a dozen pitches a day at a minimum from people to come on the show, and most of them are complete garbage. And when I saw what you guys delivered, and I'm not just stroking your ego 'cause you're here, it's true, like, completely the right way to do it. Awesome guest. Okay. So I start to get dialed in to, to them, and now when they pitch me, uh, I kinda know your people know what I'm all about.

You send me great people. And I almost... I do a tiny bit of research on the person just to make sure, you know, whatever. Yeah. But for the most part, I basically just say yes because it's a good fit.

I have another, uh, there's a couple companies that have kinda fallen into that vein, and one of the guys pitched me, um, a jazz musician. And I was like, "You know what? This dude seems like a cool dude. I've never interviewed a jazz musician before. Like, this could be a cool vein."

And dude, it ended up being this incredible, his name's Jesse Thompson, JT Jazz. He's out of, uh, Dayton, Ohio. Or now he lives in Columbus, but he's out of Dayton, Ohio. Awesome dude. And, like, uh, that episode's, uh, will have come out when this one does, so you can go back and listen if you didn't.

But, like, it was really fun to kinda go off of the normal vein, and it was a test as a host for me to try to deliver to my audience what I know they're looking for while still working through this topic that feels a little off of center. And I was just like, it was a really cool experience and, um, I just, I think this is, we can't say, stay so templated. Like, like, the John Lee Dumas, who, uh, m- major props to him for all the success he's had, but, like, that templated show style that he kinda pioneered maybe five, six, seven years ago, I, I think it's great, but at the same time, to me, it starts to feel it's too, it ends up being too templated. 'Cause you just start hearing the same answers to the same questions over and over, 'cause there's only so many different answers you can give. And, um, it comes back to this idea of curiosity. Like- You can learn from anybody if you open your mind up and you just listen to them, right?

I mean, that- 100%. It just, it- 100%. I, I also believe, Ryan, I, I think, you know, uh, there's this thing, and I learned this from a good friend of mine, his name's Andrew Neegan, and, uh, he's created some amazing things. And one of the things he said to me is that in four years you start to feel something different, a shift, a change. And I really started to think about it, right?

Think about how school and education is. When you think about, you know, freshman year to sophomore year, you think about, uh, sophomore year to junior, junior to senior, and the same thing happening, you know, even in college. There's really a four-year span of really going crazy doing something a certain way before you need to switch it up completely. And I, I think about some of those names you mentioned and their shows and their styles. What worked then not necessarily is gonna work again now.

And you notice this when you look at the, even just the smallest things, which are big deals in the spaces that we play in, like podcast charts. A lot of the shows that, you know, that were on the top of the charts three years ago are not even cracking the top 100 or even on the charts at all anymore because everybody is evolving. You have to do something different. You have to, you know, look at, okay, how do we get people really excited again? And I think that's what something a lot of podcasters should pay attention to.

Yeah. I mean, Joe Rogan's a great example. I mean, this is the biggest, one of the biggest podcasts in the world. The dude adds in... He's always done his comedian shows, right?

Mm-hmm. Then he starts bringing in scientists and all these- Yeah ... all these people like Graham Hancock who, who, you know, I, I love that part of it, you know, neurophysicists and astrophysicists, all this crazy stuff. Then he starts the MMA show. Then he's got the parks, parks sh- you know, and, and again, these are like shows inside the show where- Mm-hmm ... I skip over the one about the parks.

I think it's cool. I think it's great. It's just not something that I wanna spend my time on. But then I'll come back for, you know, a scientist, or I do, I do like the MMA shows once in a while, whatever. And to me it's like that constant evolution and curiosity, you know, and, and I love, this is gonna be probably the word of the podcast, but, like, that is the key to this game, and I think it's the key to all creation, right, is, is this curiosity.

So you have your own podcast, uh, School's Over, Now What? What was the cur- what was the, the curiosity that, that, to start that show? Like, why that topic? Why that name? Like, w- what was on your brain that you were like, "You know what?

This is gonna be my thing. This is what I'm gonna go with"? Yeah, man. You know, for me, you know, I was somebody who had went to a HBCU. Prior to that, I was really big in nightlife and parties.

I threw... My very first party, I was 14 years old, was a high school graduation party. I convinced 18-year-olds to party with a 14-year-old, and I made over $6,000. And so I went off to college. I graduated from Winston-Salem State University, became a big nightlife party promoter, took those marketing skills and transferred it to corporate, started brand managing companies like Macy's.

My last brand manager job was actually Target. And while doing this, you know, I stumbled across podcasting after being promoted six times in four years. And I'm listening to all these guys, Ed Mylett, uh, Chris Drama Appah, uh, Evan Carmichael, all these guys who have been on my show, and I saw something, and I, I, uh, really quickly that they didn't sound like me, they didn't quite look like me. And then I also paid attention to what all these corporate people who constantly kept promoting me, what they were saying about me. You know, the way that I spoke, how did I talk, and how did I sound?

Everyone listened to certain things I would say. And I started to feel guilty in the fact that I was succeeding even after college in this corporate space, and none of my friends were. And I said, "What's the question everybody's asking?" And that was, "School's over. Now what?"

Like, what do I do? And I took all of the amazing knowledge from other people and highlighted that, and I made that into the show in June 2018, and everything changed. Because so many of these big names, whether it was, uh, Mikey Taylor, Matthew Knowles, who's also a client of ours, whoever it was, they could relate to the topic. And I think a lot of podcast hosts right now are creating shows or they're doing certain things, and the main thing they have to think about if their show isn't a show that's charting or doing anything like that, is how, when someone hears the title of my show, how can they personally see themselves in it where they wanna be a part of it? And that's, that's what really happened.

Yeah. I love that. I mean, 'cause, you know, when I, when I saw the name of your show, I was like, you completely know what the person's gonna talk about, right? You're gonna- Mm-hmm ... you, like, it, it draws you in. You're like, "Shit," like, "I didn't know anything when I graduated from school."

Like, "I wonder what, wonder what this person's got to talk about. I wonder what they're gonna drop." Because it, it is, it frames it in a way that you immediately know what you're gonna get in terms of the high level, and then it draws the interest in to say, "Okay, so what specifically are the... what, what advice are they gonna give?" Like, you, you, you can't help, especially with the que- I mean, I love that you have a question mark in the name of your show. Like, it, it immediately draws you in with that kinda, like, FOMO of- ... what if they give me the secret?

You know, what if the secret that I'm looking for is, is contained in this, you know, this episode? And that's exactly what you're trying to do. So when, when we, when a podcast host or, or really any creator is, is starting to think about these types of things, is there, like, an exercise or a mindset or a framework that you recommend that can just help them start to wrap their brain around exactly how you've been successful and other shows have been? Yeah, I think, you know, when you start a podcast, I, I always tell people the main thing you wanna think about outside of the name of the show is how do you launch the show? And so many people drop just one episode.

I think that's a complete fail. I think what you have to do, think about all the things we really like, like whether, you know, it's a, a show on Netflix or... Like, one of my favorite shows on Netflix that is a, a phenomenon that's no longer showing anymore is Ozark, right? When I started watching Ozark, I didn't wanna just watch one episode. I wanted to keep going, like a series.

And so when you launch a new podcast, you wanna launch it with at least three episodes. The first episode should be who are you? Like, people wanna know exactly who are you, how did you got to where you are today, and to even wanting to cut on a microphone and to be speaking to us. The second episode is what should people expect? So think about, okay, this is gonna be an interview-style podcast where, you know, I'm gonna sit down with some of the best, or perhaps it might be a show where you're doing a mix of both.

You're giving strategy, you're giving tips. And then in the third episode, you just gotta start delivering it. So whatever you promised them on episode two, which shouldn't be that long, i- whether you promised them an interview or whether you promised them tips, this is the episode to start giving that. And I think if you launch it with three episodes, you now have a format where you can then at some point as well in the what to expect epis- episode tell your audience the day the show will constantly release, um, every single month so that they are aware of it. And now you're starting to create an audience.

They're starting to cultivate your content, get a feel for who you are, and now ready to go on this journey with you. Um, I think that's really, really important. You know, you hear all the time attention spans have gone down. You know, I had someone tell me, uh, that wasn't, like, a listener feedback. It was just a, a, a friend was like, "You know, d- do you think your show would do better if they were shorter, right?

Like, you do 45 to hour-long interviews." And I was like, "I, I completely and utterly disagree with the attention span thing." I don't think that our attention spans have dropped. I think that our, we're way more discerning as consumers of content, right? I think the difference is you just have to be better.

Like, the- Mm-hmm ... you know, the back, back when, you know, so a lot of people don't know this, uh, who listen to the show today, but I actually, my first podcast that I created was in 2011. I created a podcast called Content Warfare. It was all about marketing, strategy, content creation. I was interviewing some of the biggest and best names in all of marketing. I was at Social Media Marketing World.

This is, again, more than a decade ago. And, uh, and I was in all of Apple, I have a screenshot, in all of Apple Podcasts I was ranked number 11- Wow ... doing 47,000. Now think about this. Back, back then, this, now this is like 2013, 2014. I had been doing the show for a few years.

Um, 47,000 downloads a month was number 11 in all of Apple Podcasts. So just think about how far we've come as an industry- Mm ... how far podcasting has come as a platform, right? And I have a screenshot of Ed Mylett was number nine- ... and Gary Vaynerchuk was number 13, and there's, there's Content Warfare right in the middle. Uh, unfortunately for reasons that seem silly now, I ended, I stopped doing that show. I just didn't know podcasting was gonna be this big.

I mean, back then people still thought podcasting was stupid. You know, today- Yep. Yep ... today, you know, y- podcasting is just blown up and, and it's so incredibly important. And my, my point in sharing that story is that, um, there's no right... What I've realized over my career, and I had a, actually an, uh, an- another industry-focused podcast in between there, is that there's no right or wrong way to do this.

So my question for you is, we have these best practices that are kinda some of the foundational pieces of things we have to do. How do you recommend to people that they then start to make that podcast their own, right? 'Cause if you're just trying to duplicate or, or imitate someone else's style, that might be a good way to get off the ground, but if you really wanna get traction and become something that's sustainable, you have to kinda make it your own. W- what are your recommendations for how do you think about, how do you make your podcast your own? Yeah, I love this question. I think you have to start inserting things that show your personality or reaffirms whatever the mission statement is for the show.

I think a lot of podcasts, one of the biggest hacks I've paid attention to, even, um, when the very beginning of, of the podcast, is that you can have so many interviews, and there's times where the person you're interviewing, they might go on a tangent that has nothing to deal with what you originally started talking about. They might start talking about their dog. They might start talking about a doctor's visit. And so as the podcast host, it's important to kinda redirect that energy and let your audience know almost like a bring it home type of thing. So it's try to insert your personality.

Try to insert certain sayings where if any person was to go anywhere else, they know that catchphrase is you. One of the things that I did and didn't even realize I was doing it on the very first episode, um, and we continue to do it even now, 300-plus episodes, is that whenever I'm interviewing anybody, the way you know the interview is about to end is that we added a question to the very end of the podcast that brought all the energy back together. So the show's called School's Over! Now What? But the very last question we ask anyone who's ever been on that platform where they walked across the stage or don't even have a degree at all, if you're asking yourself the question of the show, "School's over.

Now what?" what advice would, would Ryan give, or what advice would whoever that person may be give? And that ties the show back in, but then there's also a way that we sign out on the show. And one of the ways that we sign out on the show is we always say, "For those who have been listening, always remember, dream it, believe it, go out and get it." And then what happened with dream it, believe it, go out and get it, this became a catchphrase. It became merchandise.

It became T-shirts, you know? And I, I think that's how you start inserting things that are naturally, naturally you, you know? And I think that's wh- how you really stand out. You know, it's, uh, I, I love that. You know, and actually, uh, our mutual friend, uh, Mick Hunt, he's always giving me crap because I have neither one of those things.

He's like, "Bro." He's like, "You, you..." He's like, "When we're on the phone you say the, you say the same freaking catchphrases over and over," you know, whatever. He's always giving me shit. He's like, "And then on your show," he's like, "you never say that shit."

He's like he's like, "What are you..." He's like, "You need to bring that to the show." And- ... and it's funny, I get so involved in the conversation and what the person is saying that... And again, this is why I'm a shitty podcast host, but like- No ... I, I like forget.

You know, I get to the end and I'm like, I'm so engaged in what the person is saying and where we're going and, and, uh, trying to just find little pieces and little nuggets and draw them out that like I get to the end of the show and I'm just like, "This has been awesome. H- you know, th- tell us where to go," you know? And then I'll get a text from Mick. He's like, "You, you did it again." He's like, "You didn't sign off the show," you know?

It's like, you know, and I think, I, you know, I think, um, I think you're completely right. I mean, s- that structural stuff is what builds, um, connection to the brand. Mm-hmm. What are some other things, 'cause I c- I completely agree, a sign-off question or a, or a, a closing question that kinda brings some consistency and, and conclusion to the show, kind of a landing of sorts and a, and a sign-off. C- complete agree with those things.

What are some other things that people can do to, to build that, that raving fan mentality with the people that listen? Yeah. I, I think the next thing you can look at is try to almost have like these focus groups, whether it's a Discord or whether it's a Patreon, whether it's something exclusively that you can go behind the scenes with. And then if you really wanna go crazy, you can start creating certain events for this, eh, this inclusive community that you're building, right? So let's say, you know, you're listening to this show and w- what's, what's a, what's a word that you like, Ryan, that you're really passionate about?

So we talk about, um, uh, defy ordinary a lot. Defy ordinary. Like d- do not be, you know, whatever that means to you, you cannot, you cannot be mediocre. You cannot fit into the crowd. You gotta defy ordinary.

So, so you can have a conference called Defy Ordinary. A- and every time you're talking on this podcast, every time that you are having any guest, anybody, solo episode, you can create your own 15-second, 20-second commercial in between, you know, podcasting and say, "Hey, look, we're gonna have the first ever Defy Ordinary conference happening here," and blah, blah, blah. You know, you can get your audience excited. You know what? I wanna give away the first 100 tickets.

If this is something that you wanna be a part of, you know, and you give them an email or, you know, you have maybe a social media post that you're, you're doing and they have one word comment, and the one word is define, right? And then, or unordinary or whatever it may be. Make it simple. You'll start to create this community that now you can do these focus-based events for. Um, and I think that can be exciting as well.

And then now you have these raving fans who almost become like gladiators for you everywhere you go. Yeah. I mean, you think about it, just think about the podcasts that you've mentioned and that I've mentioned already on this show, right? Like we obviously listen to them, we respect them, and here we are promoting them on- ... on a different podcast, you know? And you think about it, like that's what you want.

Like you want- Yep ... people who are out there, whether it's in their own content or when they're just bumping into a friend or playing golf or at an event or whatever, going, "Hey, man, did you listen to that last episode of so-and-so's show? Man, that, that, that really hit me hard" or whatever. And that, that part of it is definitely something that I think I have not done enough with this community, which guys, I apologize, and there are things coming, so don't worry. But, um, you know, I've always been so focused and, and some of this is just me as a creator. I just love the frigging conversations, man.

Like I love the... Like to me, it's about the conversations, and I definitely am a little lax on the brand-building, community-building piece, which is something that I need to work on. Um, I, I wanna take a slightly different tact since we're tactical here 'cause you, we've t- you've talked about, you've, you've, you've mentioned some incredible names, incredibly deep thinkers, original thinkers that have been on your show and that you're- Yeah ... connected with. For that person who's sitting out there going, "Okay, I get it. You know, I, I understand what you guys are talking about.

I feel, I feel good. I, I got some, I got some notes here that I've taken on, on how to make my show better. But I, I'd really love to get this, this A-list guest that's in my industry or whatever," right? How do... If you're not a big name yet, right, like you're not charting yet where you can say, "Hey, I'm, I'm Apple Top 20 in this" or whatever.

You know, h- what's a method, in a respectful way, 'cause this is, I've seen this done and have it done to me in, in ways that I feel icky about. Um, how, how... What is a good way, respectful way to reach out to somebody and ask for their time to come on your show? Yeah. I, I think y- people are just networking wrong, and sometimes you have to network up or network around and then make the ask.

So for example, let's, let's just call it what it is. ML has a huge podcast name. He's a huge person in the, in any space, uh, when you think about speaking, motivation, any of those things. You know, uh, when I got towards having that interview and doing it in Laguna Beach at his home, by the time I had sat on that couch, I had already interviewed 12 of his friends that were on his show. So the familiarity of okay, he's a trusted source, this is a trusted ask, is so high, right?

When you've already interviewed the Jasmine Stars, the Amy Porterfields, the Gerard Adams, it's almost a no-brainer. And I think people need to start in their pitch make that ... part of their pitch. Like we've interviewed names, names that they're familiar with. If they don't have a podcast and you want them on your show, maybe it might be names they're familiar with that they're following. So they might be following, you know, a very small amount of people.

Typically, you know, people with huge followings are following very small handful amount of people, and some of those handful amount of people might be the person you need to speak with first before you make this gigantic ask. And, um, one of the special ways to do this with athletes is instead of going for the athlete, go for the coach, go for the trainer. Go for somebody that they're familiar with that you can now utilize this, because they're gonna ask that person, you know, "How was it like talking to them?" And we all wanna be in rooms our friends are in, and I think that's the key. Yeah.

I, I will say that, uh, I had a, I had a, an athlete come on, and, uh, a football player. He had retired and had become an entrepreneur, and I was really interested in that journey and that transition, and it was a great conversation. And afterwards he said to me, um, he goes, "You know, man, I kinda, I kinda took, uh, a flyer on you because..." So, so how I got to this guy was his dad actually for fun drives Uber. So I was doing a keynote, and I show up in Dallas, Texas, to do this keynote, and I jump in the car and I'm chatting with the Uber driver, 'cause I'm a just talkative person, and he tells me who his kid is.

And I was like... I, like, hesitated for a sec 'cause I was like, "Well, I don't mean, I mean no disrespect in this question, but why are you driving Uber?" He goes, "I do it for fun." He goes, "I like talking to people, so I..." He goes, "I, I don't do it all the time.

Once or twice a week." He goes, "But it gives me a chance to talk to people. Most of them are coming in from the airport, and they got interesting stories, whatever." And I was like, "That's kinda cool." And then I said, "Hey, I, I have a podcast.

Do you think your son would be interested in coming on? I'd love his story." Because he's telling me all about this business he's creating and stuff, and whatever. So that's how I get to the guy. Mm.

So then, you know, and he comes on the show, and he's like... And, and here's the point of my story. He goes, he gets to the end and we do it, and it was a great conversation, and he goes, "You know, man, I took a flyer on this." He goes, "I've done this a couple times where, like, I didn't know the show." And he's like, "Oh my God."

He's like, "Within five minutes, I'm, like, regretting the decision." And that's- ... that's what they're thinking, right? I guess to your point, what these people are thinking is my time is valuable. 100%. I'm willing to give it to you if you're gonna make it worthwhile, but, but you need to prove to me, for me to give you my time, that it's gonna be worthwhile.

So it's, again, it's like that what's in it for me kinda thing, and it's, you know, I think letting them know... Uh, another one that I, I will sometimes do when I'm making kind of a bigger ask is, uh, letting them know, "Hey, I'm gonna give you all the footage. You know, when it, when it comes in, it'll all be yours. You'll have full rights to it, so you can chop it up. Your social media team can use it.

People seem..." You know, you give them like, like start- figure out what the objections are and then just start crossing them off for them in your initial ask so that, "Hey, we, there's other people. Here's two episodes that I think if you just take a quick look at will give you a feel for the show. Here's all the assets. You get blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

And then it's, they start to go, "Okay, you know, this person's gonna respect my time." 'Cause that's the worst thing for them, is they get in, and five minutes in they're regretting every second of it. Oh, man. You, you... It's so relatable, 'cause we, we both probably have, have, have felt that, you know? Um, and, and at that point when you've reached the levels and heights like that, it can almost feel like, um, like a discovery call when you're, when, when, when you're with them.

So it's so important to kind of really, really make sure that you make it worth their while, whether you're entertaining it, whether you're giving them the interview they really, really wanted to always have but no one's ever given them the opportunity to, to do that. And I think when you provide those type of environments, they'll come back. Yeah. And they'll refer you people. That's- Yep.

Yep ... that's when you know, I think, when you've done a good job. When a guest goes, you finish, you finish a conversation. You, you, you turn, uh, the mics off, uh, or the recording off, and you... And the guest is like, "You know, I got a buddy, you know." "He, this, he'd love this.

This is great." And then, you know, I, I, you know, you get that little bit of pride feeling of like, "Oh, I did a good job here. This has been fun." So, um, I, I wanna ask you, uh, just a couple questions about what you do at Pod Pro Max, specifically around the idea of, uh, doing podcast tours. All right.

Because I have s- I, in a different life, uh, I did one for a different business. It, it had nothing to do with what I'm doing now. Um, and I, I didn't love the way they did it. Um, so but I think this, something like a podcast tour, especially when maybe you're in launch mode or you're trying to push a program or you just are looking to, to take your brand to the next level, is it, it, it, there are not enough people tapping into this as a resource for them. So talk to me- Yeah ... a little bit about what a podcast tour is, the value someone can get, and ultimately How do, if they, if they were to come to Pop Pro Max and say, "Guys, I, I got this thing.

I want it to be successful. I'd love for you to do a tour with you," how do they make that the most successful for them? Well, I love this thing because, uh, Pop Pro Max Tours, uh, and this podcast w- is where we take a talent, we understand more about them probably than anyone else. So, uh, one thing that we, we talked about already that I think we both understand is the power of the right pitch and how quickly we understand how a terrible pitch is. So with Pop Pro Max, we take on a talent, we give them an intake form, we understand exactly what your business is, we understand exactly what type of shows you like, what shows you wish you were on, and we take that and we create some of these powerful pitches.

And I remember the very first podcast tour we did, shout out to Arlan Hamilton. So Arlan Hamilton is a huge VC. She's been seen on everything you can imagine, and she had a conference. At her conference, Your First Million Live, where she had Gary Vee, Rich Paul. And what's so important for anyone that's thinking about a podcast tour, if you ever are thinking about promoting something, whether it's a conference, whether it's a book, whether it's your own podcast, this is the perfect thing for you to do.

And when you're with the right company that understands you, understands what your viewpoints are, and have credibility in the space, I think it's so important. When I found out, you know, we've launched Pop Pro Max now, it's over a year old, but what I found out with this is that the founder's story, Ryan, is so key. A lot of people are out here operating businesses that they've never really been in. They're operating businesses that they never even achieved the success. And you're talking to someone who spent years in podcasting, who turned podcasting into a six-figure side hustle by the second year of podcasting when I was only podcasting one day a week.

That means that one day a week I would do the interviews, I would do the edits, I would get some of these amazing guests. All this happened only off one day of effort. So this is years of understanding, you know, the, the space, years of collecting relationships, identifying talent like yourself and saying, "Hey, look, this is awesome person that you don't know about that you should learn about." And I think, uh, also what's important to pay attention to in the founder's story, what was the, the eye-opener for me when I knew I had to go all in on entrepreneurship, is I had a job review, and I remember like it was yesterday. He sat me down.

Job reviews are the key to understanding what you're really good at without even trying. And what's so crazy about it is that your boss, whoever is your supervisor, they're getting paid to tell you. And so he told me, "Listen, Sean, the way you connect and collaborate with others, I've never seen anything like it." And I got to exceed expectations. So that fueled me to start reaching out to more people, collaborating with more people, and it's just became a superpower.

And I understand exactly where someone is at, and my team understands exactly who is out there that needs to work with them, and that they feel good because just because it's a podcast tour, we don't want just the host. We don't want just the, the, the client feeling well. We want the host feeling well because- Mm-hmm ... they are now a partner of ours, and we're also satisfying a need for them because it's hard to find the right guest that will share your content, that'll be just as excited, who will understand, okay, this person across from me has already been vetted, like I've already been vetted. And I think that's how you have success, 'cause I see so many companies doing it wrong, and it all comes back to founder's story, who's on their team, and then what's the credibility of where the source is coming from. And I'm excited about that because the podcast tours, you know, we, we do this with people who are entrepreneurs.

We do this with people who are, uh, in the television space. One of our talents is The Polites. They're on a show called 50/50 Flipping Real Estate. You can watch it right now on Hulu. You can watch it right now, uh, on A&E.

They're signed for four seasons, but they're in their second season now, but that all happened because of podcasting. Podcasting only expands the vertical arm of media, and if you wanna do it correctly, I truly, honestly believe that podcasting tours are the future. Because everyone can't sit down like you and understand what it takes to be at the top of the charts in a business category. They might not have the grit. They might not have the hunger, but they got a story, and a platform that is connected with them could be light years in speeding them ahead of everyone that they've been watching from the sidelines.

Guys, this is a good point to just take your finger and slide back about three minutes and listen to what Sean said again, because I, I think that this is the untapped resource for establishing your thor- authority in whatever you're trying to do. And even if you're a local business, right, there are podcasts in your area, your local n- news network, your... You know, there's gonna be someone who's talking about culture. There's y- the sports guy who on one of the stations probably has his own podcast or her own podcast. And it doesn't have to be, "Well, you know, I own three, uh, you know, three franchise locations, and I really want people to understand what I'm doing," and, you know, whatever.

Yeah, that's great. You can do a podcast tour that's regional. You can do a podcast tour that's specific to a niche. Like, it doesn't just have to be these big, huge shows that maybe not everyone is your, is your niche. It's about exactly what Sean said.

And I'll tell you guys, and, and again, not paid to say this, I just appreciate these guys as someone who gets pitches from them. Um, there is a right and wrong way to do this. Mm-hmm. And if you are working with a company that is not pitching you to the right shows, it will not work out for you. That host will show up, and they'll try their best, but there will be an obvious disconnect between the host and what you're trying to get across.

And when it works well, it's magic. You s- like we said at the very beginning, you say things that you wouldn't normally say. You explain things at a deeper level. There's this connection and energy and, um, you need, you need the right people. And if you try to do this on your own, you can.

Oh, man. You can, but it is an enormous amount of work. You will miss a lot of shows that... You know, when I get pitched directly I scrutinize people a lot because I get pitched from people who wanna tell me, "I did this, I did this, I did this, I did this, and I've made this mistake," where they get on and then they're none of those things. Or they're giving you, you know, I mean, Sean, I, I, I'm sure that you have experienced this or at least been around it- Oh, absolutely ... where like you ask somebody a question and, like, you're expecting, like, a two, three-minute answer, and you get, like, a sentence, and you're like, "Oh my God, this person doesn't actually know what they're talking about.

Like, we're in trouble. How the hell do I make 30 minutes working here?" It's like, it's like pulling teeth, man. It, you know, um, you know, there's... What I also learned, too, just from the talent management aspect and managing talent and brand negotiations and, uh, deal-making, is that the hardest thing to ever do is represent yourself.

You know, there's people who have actually made their entire company on teaching you how to pitch yourself or teaching you how to make some noise by yourself. And, uh, the real high-level credibility, wherever you're trying to go, to your point, you said it in a very smooth way, they don't respect that. What they want is they wanna see a, a talent actually being represented and someone speaking on their behalf so that it's a pleasant surprise and they're already hit with so much credibility it's a no-brainer. You know, I think a lot of people are, um... I think that old model of, uh, let me teach you how to, how to go do this yourself, you know, I kinda, I kinda think about this.

Some of the worst consultants, and I think about it. Some of the worst consultants. You wanna know why they're really a consultant, Ryan? 'Cause they don't wanna do the work. Yeah. They don't wanna do the work.

They... If they wanted to do the work, they would do the work. They would have the team. They would... They themselves don't wanna do the work, so they wanna just tell you what you should do, when in reality, when you are being represented, it is a completely different, uh, response to that.

Yeah. And as much as people may not want... S- some people may not like this idea, but in, in this game, authority matters, and it's the perception of your authority. And when... Now, again, you know somebody, you meet them at a conference, they text you, "Hey, bro, c- I'd love to come on the show and talk about whatever," that's different, right?

Yeah. You know the person, it's different. I'm not talking about that. Mm-hmm. But, like, when you're trying to, say, get on a show, like, you know, a high-power show who's, who's charting, and you reach out directly cold- Mm ... what I feel is if this person was really doing all the things that they're gonna tell me that they do in their business, they would not be reaching out cold.

They would have somebody doing this for them. Because, because what that shows me is they're not prioritizing their time. Mm. Cold outreach to hosts tells me that entrepreneur or that person, their time should be better spent than doing that, right? There should be someone else researching shows- Mm ... putting together emails, putting together pitches, sending them out.

So now I immediately... Like, their authority in my mind comes down a little bit 'cause I'm like- Mm ... if, if they were really doing all the things they're saying they're doing, they wouldn't have time to pitch me to be on my show. They would have their person or a, a team or- Mm ... or someone like, uh, Pop Pro Max reaching out. And, you know, that might not feel good to you guys, some, some of you guys. I mean, some of you guys- ... are gonna really understand it.

But, like, that is absolutely the truth. So Sean, dude, I, uh, I, I adore what you're doing. I love your philosophy, your networking. Your approach to podcasting is phenomenal. Um, you know, the question that, that I do ask when I ask it, and now that you put this on me I have to ask it to you- ... is you are an extraordinary human.

How do you defy ordinary? I defy, I, I, I defy ordinary by I think about every room that I'm walking in and every conversation that I'm having. Regardless of where I can physically stand, I'm operating as my future self. And I think, uh, the more I do that, so whether it's speaking on stages, whether it is, you know, talking to anybody, you know, like right now on this podcast, you know, I'm talking to you as Desean Anthony, who's already achieved CAA-type level, because that's where I'm headed. And I, I think if you're listening to this right now, you have to start today operating as if you are already who you are supposed to be, and I think that's the key.

I fucking love it. Dude, such a pleasure. Appreciate you. Can't wait to work with you more in the future, brother. Be good.

Likewise, bro. Let's go. Yeah. Make it look, make it look, make it look easy. Hey, stand up.

Thank you for listening to The Ryan Hanley Show. Be sure to subscribe and leave us a comment or review wherever you listen to podcasts. Game ain't a game for me. I never switched up, no changing me. The only thing changing is...

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