Rediscovering Authenticity in the Age of Machine Generated Art

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When they shout go, or they shoot the gun, or whatever they're gonna do that's gonna tell you it's time to row across the lake, if you do anything other than focus on your stroke and your breathing and the, the pace so that you complete the thing, if you look left or right, you're gonna lose. Let's go. Yeah. Make it look, make it look, make it look easy. I stay up- The goal of this podcast is to share original insights and conversations on the habits, mindsets, and strategies of elite performers that produce exceptional results.

Let's go. I have some questions about the business of music, but I also wanna talk about creativity, your process- Mm-hmm ... and all that kind of stuff, too. So, um- Just know I, I'm, I'm willing to, to engage anything, and wherever you wanna start, wherever you're comfortable- Yeah ... start there. Awesome. Awesome.

And I can do this while you I love it. I love it. I, uh- Chico Marx. You know, it's funny. I, um, you know, I know if I practiced at anything you'd probably be okay, but it's tough when you, like, find out you're just not inclined for something.

And, uh- ... I love creativity. I love creating. I've been a, a writer, and I've done a tremendous amount on YouTube, and I just love creating and telling stories, and have found over and over and over again that I am sure I could improve if I practiced, but there is not a native musical bone in my entire body. I believe you.

So I, I love, uh, I love... I just find people who that is something that at least they have a propensity for incredibly, and obviously your career- Mm ... is storied and, and all that. I, I don't mean it to be so cavalier about it, but I, I do find it- No, but- ... so intriguing ... is- isn't it fascinating that that's, that's actually... I, I mean, I find it shocking that f- it, that there's actually a difference in hu- you know, it... that humans can be that different- Yeah ... in the way they're wired, you know? Um, I mean, my, my f- dad was a musician, my sister was a musician, all my rel- my mom.

We used to say Mom played the iron, you know? She was like a maestro. And she had no musicality in her whatsoever. Yeah. And it always struck me as odd.

It's like, how can there's not... What is this? And so- Yeah ... I think it helps, maybe helps shine a little light on the idea that we're, we're very different creatures from one another even though we all need- Yeah ... the same food, water, sleep, you know, um, stuff, but we're very different, you know? I couldn't agree with you more, and- Yeah ...

I think a lot of why I do this podcast, it, it's... You know, I, I, I've been doing it for a long time. Uh, what I've settled on, and the reason I keep coming back, the reason that I love doing it, the reason I love having these conversations, is I am intoxicated by independent thinking. And, you know, that doesn't necessarily mean contrarian or off-the-wall or obscure, whatever. Just people who have found something that allows them to be uniquely them and, and dial in on it.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, it's funny. I was listening to a show the other day, uh, and, uh, the guy's name is Michael Malice, and he was, he was talking about, uh, being at parties. And he says there's two types of people at parties.

You sit down next to somebody. The first type of person sits down next to somebody, asks them what they do, and, uh, they say they handle hamsters. And the first type of person hears that and says, "This guy's a weirdo," gets up and walks away. Right. Second type of person sits down and goes, "Tell me everything about-" Yeah ...

"hamsters." Right. And I have found myself to be that second type of person. I, I could care less- Yeah ... what you're interested in. I just am interested in people who love something and are passionate about it.

Yeah. I, I'm, I'm with you. Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you on that.

You know? Yeah. So, um, being that I'm a terrible interviewer, I'm gonna start- ... what, in what is probably an odd place. Obviously. I mean, how would you have this gig if you were any good at it?

Yeah, right, exactly. Um, I wanna start in a place that just, something that intrigued me and I was very interested in. I was researching, uh, your new album that's coming out. Mm-hmm. And in there you were talking about it, and you said you, you wanted the sound to have a, a '70s sound, so you put rules or, uh, you didn't use this word, this is mine, guardrails around what instruments you could use.

And I, I was intrigued by the idea of rules- ... helping you be more creative? 'Cause I don't know if people who would not classically call themselves creative would necessarily be able to connect those two things. Mm. Um, wow. I think I, i- because I've grown up with this stuff and, and, and, and done it since I was a very little boy, and even played with technology from when I was a very little boy, um, anecdotally because I would go to music stores with my father while he picked up saxophone reeds, and I'd play the piano, and some s- music store owner would have ordered some synthesizer that nobody knew anything about, and he'd hear me playing. He'd say, "Do you think you could figure this out?"

And I was nine, 10. And I'd say, "I think I could." He said, "Okay, take it home, and figure it out-" "... 'cause I don't know how to sell it 'cause I don't know what it does." So I was playing with technology far beyond anything I could even consider from a very young age. And technology and its evolution has a big, big effect on how you do things.

Um, I, I'm a practicer. I've practiced the piano. You know, my sister Mary said when the 10,000 hour thing came up, she said, "You had your 10,000 hours before you were nine years old." And I probably did, you know. Yeah.

Of just sitting at that little piano, which is sitting right there, the one I actually grew up with. Um, and so the technology and the work and all of it, I've s- been able to, uh, qualify in some ways the effects it has on w- on the process. And when you go to modern technology, it affords many things, but in doing so, it eliminates certain demands that when the demand is put on you, it, it, you have to straighten your back a little bit more. Um, and so in that, this record, um, I didn't use any modern synthesizers, and I didn't use any sequencing, uh, that didn't exist in the '70s, and I just drew a line there, you know? So if it didn't exist then, I didn't use it, and that's what that, that's what that statement is.

So there's no polyphonic synthesizers. There's, um, electric pianos and things that existed then. And the one place I took a little bit of, uh, liberty is that there was modular synthesis. Um, and so I have, sitting behind you, I have a Buchla synthesizer, which was made in the early '70s, and I didn't have one then. Yeah.

And this is a reissue of it, but I used it because I, 'cause it did exist. I didn't use it very much, but I did use it. So I think that those things help define, um, a style but also a process. You know? If you've got a computer that's doing what computers do now, y- y- you don't have '70s music 'cause they didn't have computers in the '70s.

Yeah. And, and it's not a judgment one way or another. It's just a, you know- So I, uh- ... music thing ... I have indoctrinated my kids to what I would call good music from a very early age, which, which, and it ... I pretty much say that good music ended, like, in 2005.

Now granted, there have been good songs and good albums since then, but I, I, what I share with them is the idea that, like, when you used to hear a clap, in many cases it was two boards slapping together next to a microphone, right? Or a, uh, they were finding a way to tap the side of a drum to get a unique sound that the artist could hear in their head but didn't necessarily have a way to make. And I said you hear such unique sounds, integrations, um, that the, the, the forcing function was the l- the limitation was the forcing function for the creativity. Absolutely. And that y- if you wanted it to be more dynamic, you literally had to invent ways to make the songs more randy- dynamic, which is why- That's right ...

I believe we connect at a soulful level so much more to music that was created in that way than let me put, I want a, you know, a, a four-beat over a trap sound with a heavy bass hook 34 seconds in, like, beep boop, and then it, like- Yeah ... comes up with 17 different iterations, and now I try to apply a, uh, like a voice track to it. Um, not that you can't create great, you know, good music in that way, but it, I feel many ways like, um, the ease in some ways, and I, and I don't mean to say that anything anyone does is easy. I'm not trying to diminish that. But the, the, the- You, you don't have to be politically correct or careful with- Yeah, yeah, no. I, I agree ... 'cause you turn me loose, and you won't even wanna know about it.

Yeah. So- So, I mean, I'll be polite ... you know, and, and, you know- And that's, you know. I, uh, and, and there's no requirement to being politically correct, nor am I trying to be. I just, I know that people that are in music today, they are working. I, I don't mean to ...

But that being said- Yeah ... there is a ... I was listen- I'll give you an example. Okay. The other night, um, kids were doing something and, uh, I threw on, um, Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon documentary. Okay.

And, uh, I've seen it half a dozen times. I get, if it's on or I catch it or whatever, I literally can't turn it off. The music captures me, the way they talk about it, how, you know, and I forget his name, but the saxophonist they brought in who plays- Right ... in there was a friend of a friend of a friend, and the only reason he's on the track is 'cause he was the only guy available who could literally come at the time when they needed to record the- Yeah. And then that- Yeah ... unique sound comes from that unique individual in that moment simply because- That's right ... he's the only guy that was available, and you're like- You're like, "Holy shit." Like, these are, there's so much soul in it.

Yeah. And am I wrong? I guess, uh, where do you stand on that? Like, have we, has a lot of the music, not all, 'cause there's a lot of people who whatever, but do we feel in general, like, there was so much soul in that old music, I miss it, I guess, is the best way to put it. Well, I, I think, um, I'll, I'll give you an interesting anecdote and then we'll, and then we'll go into this- Yeah ... is this camera moving all around?

It's doing a kind of zooming. Which is perfectly fine. Okay. Yeah. Um, I'm, I'm glad that it ha- that it's involved.

Yeah. I'd hate to feel that the zeros and ones are being left out. We know how offended they get. Yeah. Um, just ironically, you mention that.

This record that I did, um, and I haven't really talked about this at all, it's the first time I'm gonna talk about it. I was working on the Dark Side of the Moon redo with Roger, and I backed out of it- Mm ... because for my own reasons. Um, but I, I, I did a record, I did Amused to Death with Roger Waters- Yep ... in the early '90s, and I worked on Momentary Lapse of Reason with Gilmour. And I feel the same way you do about Pink Floyd. I, I, I was a little boy, you know, 12 years old when Dark Side of the Moon came out, or 13 years old, and it was my whole world, too.

Um, and the, the architecture and the things that just happen 'cause that's the way they happen, and whatever those things are, whether it's Floyd or anything where you don't necessarily have full control over it. You get a bunch of people in the room. Uh, one of my favorite Led Zeppelin tracks is Since I've Been Loving You from Led Zeppelin III. Yep. And the bass drum pedal has a squeak in it, and if you have a decent stereo you can hear the squeak.

But they w- they were like, "Well, but that was the performance, squeak or no squeak." Um, I l- I think that that's vital. And, and I think that m- my, uh, I have a funny little thing that I, that I came up with when I, I u- I used to do some songwriting clinics, and I have, I have a little keyboard here so I can show you. I would do this. And I'd ask people what it is, and I'd do it again.

And some people with good pitch would say, "It's, it's E." I'd say, "What if I change one note?" And everybody goes, "Beethoven." And you go, okay, so the most recognizable musical motif, doesn't matter what you play it on, is from one note. It's one note that gives you this thing, and that to me is far more important than what it's done on or how it's done or who does it.

It, it's the content. It is form should follow it. Yeah. And, and so if you're creating sincere content, it doesn't matter how you do it. But with technology being what it is, it creates content for you, and then you kind of apply yourself to it.

And it's a modern age, and I understand things change, and I'm good with that, but I'm not gonna listen to it- Yeah ... for any reason. I would have no reason to listen to any of it. And that's not a bias, it's just my choice. Yeah. You know?

W- why would I? And, and so over the years when people say, "You have to hear this", occasionally I'll, I'll listen. And I don't, I realize I really don't have to hear it. I don't have to hear it. Yeah.

Um, because for me it's in the, it's in the composition and the performance and the poetry and the, and this thing that's organic. And it, people are composing and they're performing and they're writing lyrics and they're rhyming things, and so hence poetry. Um, but you have to connect to it. Yeah. You have to connect to it, and if you don't, I'm curious why you're 2005.

I cut off way earlier than 2005. So I constitute certain artists in the rap and R&B genre as pulling, they pulled some of it through to about that far. That might be a little far, but, um, you know, that, that's about for me when it went from guys who were, you know, so, so, you know, maybe ta- take that R&B phase in the late '80s to the early two, very early 2000s. There were guys who were creating music, whether you appreciate the rap and hip hop genre or not, which I know a lot of people who are listening don't, um, they hate when I talk about it. But, uh, uh, 'cause n- no one understands how I can appreciate Wu-Tang, um, Triumph as much as I appreciate- Mm-hmm ... uh, Dark Side of the Moon.

Like, how is that even possible is how I have people say. And it's like, to me there's, there are people who are creating it because they have to create it, and there are people who have decided that I'm gonna make money creating music, and those are two different things. Very much. And- A- and also, a- a- I don't mean to interrupt, but I think it's- No, you're fine ... important to note that the, to me it's almost a science, and I believe it really is to some degree, that we form, the human beings form your musical fingerprint, if you will, or your musical, um, reflection from about the ages of nine to about 15, and that's it. Yeah.

So what you listen to from age nine to 15 will always be your portfolio that you'll bring with you when you listen to music. Yeah. And if there's nothing in it that doesn't touch something that existed in that period, you're not gonna care about it at all. Yeah. And, you know, for me as a, as a, uh, musician my whole life, and, and I, and I loved studying music, and I do still study- But I still s- there's enough in books that were written in the Renaissance age that I don't understand yet.

Yeah. So I'm good with, uh, y- learning- Yeah ... more about music and not necessarily studying pop culture. I n- I never studied pop culture. Yeah. Um, but I think that that's a big part of it.

If it, if it, if you weren't a teenager absorbing this stuff in your climate and your peer group, you don't relate to it. Yeah. You know? I mean, that sounds a little lame, but it's true. No, I, I think, I, I think that, I think that makes a lot of sense.

Um, I will say that my eyes were not opened in, to classical until I was much older, and I love- Well- ... classical music. Um, and if, and have tried to dive deeper into it. Um, I find it to be, you know, I, I, I love classical. That was something I found later in life. But- Yeah ... but I think it all comes back to, I don't know.

I, I think that people listen to music for different reasons, and I think it depends on why you're listening to it. Unfortunately today, my take is that the current, the current mainstream music that is shoved down, would be if I didn't allow them, if I didn't introdu- in- introduce them to what I would call good music much earlier, that would be shoved down my kids' throats, um- Yeah ... is music just to numb you from whatever you're doing. It's trap beats and hooks, and, and, and just getting you through to the next, to the next, you know, you know, section of the song, and it's nonsensical. Half of it you can't even understand. You can tell that it's all generated by a computer.

Not a single person's fingers bled- Right ... to make it happen. And I don't know how you can connect to that. And, and frankly, I don't think that people do. Like, when I see people- No, I don't ... who will send me songs that are, that are, you know, current or, or on the pop charts or whatever now, they're not sending me the song going like, "This song is going to change your life." Yet- Right ... when someone sends you, you know, when someone sends you Led Zeppelin or Pink Floyd or, or Nirvana or, you know, early, early hip hop, Notorious, Tupac, if you're in that age group, right?

Like, when they s- those songs, some of those songs would literally change you. Like, they would, they would hit you, and you would be like, "I can never unhear that." Like, that is now in me. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Like, I can't unhear that song. Yeah. The way that person delivered it, how they did it. Um, and, and, and I, I'm gonna, uh, finish this statement with something that just absolutely, it blew me away understanding that these are the times. I think it's what's coming, and I hate it.

Uh, Alicia Keys at the Super Bowl, right? She misses her mark. She misses her mark on a, on a lyric, and she, and, and she misses it. Mm-hmm. And she catches herself.

And it's a, it's a tiny little hiccup in an, in an amazing performance that if it were live- Mm-hmm ... no one would've even thought about it. Right. But you cannot find it online. They digitally changed the performance- Mm-hmm ... so that she hits it perfectly on mark, and you can't find it online. They, they, they changed the recording- Oh, that's ... and, and the only time.

And you're like, "What a shame." That's right. Like, 'cause to me, that imperfection, to, to a, to a digital marketer- Mm-hmm ... or a big company like the NFL or whatever, they're seeing that as an imperfection, and I'm going, "That makes the performance unique." It didn't ruin the song. Yeah.

It's Alicia Keys. She's fucking brilliant. Yeah, yeah. Like, what are you talking about? Yeah.

I mean, I, I, uh, you know, I, I, I spent a lot of years with Leonard Cohen, a lot, uh, working with Leonard all the time, and there was something that we were working on, and there was something that wasn't quite right in it, and I pointed it out, and he said, "The beauty's in the flaws." And it's that simple. There was no going back or looking at it again because that's the truth of it, is the beauty is in the thing that's not perfect. Yeah. And if, and once you put everything on the grid, pitch and time, could have fun listening, but there's not, you're not listening to anything.

There's nothing there. Yeah. I, I agree. There need some sense of rhythm and some sense of, I don't know, you know. But look, this, uh, things, things change, and, and you can, you, if, depending on what you're interested in doing, you can focus on it and, and look at it, or you don't have to look at it at all.

And, um, I guess that's the beauty of it. Uh, because I'm busy all the time trying to come up with something all the time, every day, um, I don't care what other people are doing. And I don't mean that I'm indifferent to it. I mean, I'm not interested in it. I, I, I'm interested in my own, um, stew that I'm making, uh, and what ingredients it has in it and how I feel about it and how it tastes to me.

Um, and it sounds a little bit like this couldn't possibly be true, but once I really like it, I don't care what anybody else thinks- Yeah ... at all. I don't care at all. Not even, nothing could affect me. I don't care 'cause I'm after this, I'm after my own painting. And once I've painted the painting and I feel like I've done it the best that I can and I'm satisfied with it, I'm done.

I'm good. Um, and I think that's what it should be. If you're trying to please somebody else, you're, you're kinda screwed before you start. So what I find very interesting and, and, and... We deal with this regardless if we are in a purely, a, a, a pure creative profession like creating music or writing or dance or whatever.

We also see this in business and entrepreneurs, and I see it all the time, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, so, so my m- what I do for a living is, uh, executive coaching and startup advising. I've been an entrepreneur for 15 years, and I, um- I now try to help people who are stuck or hitting moments or having conversations where, with themselves that they can't get past, and try to break them free. And the thing that, the thing that is often the hardest struggle to get through is when they are over in...

They're stuck because they're worried about what the rest of the market is doing, right? This is the way everyone else does this part of this type of business. Everyone here is going in this direction. And so- Mm-hmm ... so what I would love is, you know, and, and being that you've taught people how to write music and worked with t- w- you know, up and down the chain, celebrities, all different genres, w- how do you- Mm ... break someone free and a- and what would be your advice to them or guidance to start to cultivate that mentality of like whether you're, this is an entrepreneurial endeavor or you're leading a community program trying to raise funds, or you're creating art, h- how do you start- Mm ... to do exactly what you just said? Be- see the art as w- it's ready when, when it's ready for you and not- Right ... taking in all these opinions and most- Right ... of which are completely just made up in our head and, and they're not even real.

That's right. So, you know, I, when you said that, I get an image, and I don't know why I get this image, but this is the image that came to mind, and I'm probably gonna sound like I'm out of my mind, which maybe I am. I- if you're gonna take a, a race across a, a, a, a lake, say a kayak race for example, when they shout go or they shoot the gun or whatever they're gonna do that's gonna tell you it's time to row across the lake, if you do anything other than focus on your stroke and your breathing and the, the pace so that you complete the thing, if you look left or right, you're gonna lose. You're gonna lose, and that's it. So when you're...

For me, if you wanna stand out, and I, I never set out to stand out. That was not my goal, but I did want to maintain my own musical identity, and the way I did it was by not learning other people's music. I don't learn other people's music. I barely listen to other people's music. I did when I was a kid, but I don't anymore and I haven't for decades really, to be honest.

Um, I listen to some things, and really almost nothing these days because I'm, I'm busy crossing that lake and making sure I don't get distracted. Yeah. And, and I think that you need to know what the race is. Mm-hmm. So before the gun goes off, you look up and down, and you go, "He looks a little scary," and, "Well, he looks a lot stronger than me, and that's a better boat than I have."

But once the gun goes off, if you pay any attention to that, you don't stand a chance. Yeah. And I think, does that make sen- I think that's a very, a decent metaphor, right? Makes complete sense. It makes complete sense.

I- You know, I, I mean, there's a, there's a thing that, uh, that a, that a great man who we've spoken to i, in another way a few minutes ago, I was doing a show with this man in Spain and he said, "Let's do the traditional band toast." And it was champagne all the way around and he said, "Fuck 'em all," and out we went , you know? And it was like now everything, his history and all of it makes perfect sense to me. Because you cannot be concerned with anyone else and do anything unique. The second you absorb someone else's notion of something, you've diminished your own originality.

And I, I know this is bad news to a lot of people, and, and, and they can d- don't agree with me. I don't care, you know? Uh, it's you hold onto your identity and your beliefs, and if you, if you can make them work for you, you'll have true success. And if you believe you can't and you start to look at someone else, you might get somewhere, but it ain't gonna last. It's not gonna last 'cause it's not yours.

You earn these things. You earn them. Y- you know, I, I probably sound like some sort of life coach. I'm not a life coach. I'm just a, you know- No, I, no, I think you're- And a m- ... completely right.

I, I think this is the challenge of our time, 'cause social media has made comparison not just something that you have access to, but literally something that's shoved in your face every- No, it's chronic ... single day. It's chronic. Yeah. It's slowly... Right.

What I find interesting, and I share this a lot with my clients, and we t- talk about it on the podcast too, is all of the examples of people that we hold up as these pinnacles of creativity or innovation or success, all of them have these unique unfollow- followable journeys. Mm-hmm. All of them. They all. Mm-hmm.

When you look back on all ep- they did this here and this and this would've never happened. Mm-hmm. I mean, uh- Right ... uh, a, a big example that just, he just, uh, gave his Hall of Fame commencement speech is Tom Brady, and I listened to the speech. I, I, I's, I'm a lifetime Buffalo Bills fan, so- Mm ... rooting for Tom Brady was incredibly difficult until he left the Patriots. Now I love him 'cause he's, he, he- ... seems like a, a pretty decent guy.

Yep. Very unique and hardworking. But when you look at his career, right? I mean, this is a guy who, who was a ho-hum quarterback in college for most of his career, didn't have great measurables. He was never the number one on everything.

He gets drafted in the sixth round of the NFL draft. He barely, barely makes it onto the, onto the traveling squad for the- Mm-hmm ... for the Patriots. He sits behind a quarterback in, in Drew Bledsoe, who had been a perennial Pro Bowler. I mean- There, there were a million reasons this guy gives up, a million reasons why he doesn't ever get to be this thing. Yeah.

Yet he played the game in a way that no one has ever duplicated, right? Right. This short, direct, the way he goes about his business. Okay, so if you follow Tom Brady's path, right? One, that's Tom Brady's life, not your life, one.

Which- Two, the number of serendipitous moments that took place for him to have the thing that he has, you can never recreate. That's right. So the idea at, even at face value, not that you can't learn some best practices or some training tips or, or whatever. I mean, there's things that you can learn from people, but- Yeah ... but at the end of the day, I, I, I cannot agree with you more. And this, and uh, I did this whole episode a- and uh, a, a couple weeks ago around I think the fear of failure is bullshit.

I think it's absolute bullshit. Mm-hmm. It's marketing copy. It's meant to sell you stuff. I said, what you're scared of is status, and this is the problem.

I- this is what I believe the problem is. The reason I do not follow my art or my, my, what I want, the reason I try to become Patrick is because I'm so worried if I go down my path, right? Mm-hmm. Or, and, and I decide to play hip hop banjo, right? Because that's what I love doing, you know?

And however, however that would work, right? Right. Like, like, 'cause, 'cause if I follow that path and it's un- and it's unsuccessful, e- what is everyone gonna say? "Well, geez, you could have been a successful traveling banjo guy if you had just learned these chords and hooked up with these bands, and da, da, da, da, da, and got this agent." And it's like, you don't wanna be that thing.

You wanna be a hip hop banjo guy. Yeah. So forget about what people think. Forget about the fucking status- That's right ... and, and be your own person. But it is such- Yeah ... a struggle for people to break free today with that.

Yeah. I mean, it, I, I think, um, I see it only in the tiny bit that I see what the media actually contains 'cause I, I, I can't look at it. Um, and I, and, and certainly reflecting back to, you know, my generation, which is, you know, a long time ago now, but everyone was completely individual. There was no, you know, why would, why would you want your bands to be similar? Why would you ever?

And the other thing is, you know, I think it's not okay these days for someone to be better than somebody else. I think that's kind of- Yeah ... and that's bullshit, man. That's bullshit. Yeah. You know?

You need that. I think I, I've always said that where I, where I set my bar for what I wanted out of my musical life, I will never get there. And because of that , I'm still working. Yeah. I'm still trying.

I'm still experimenting. I'm still searching. I'm still intrigued by it, because the bar is way out of my reach. Yeah. And that's the only way to do it.

And this idea that you can't have something that's greater than something else because you can offend somebody with that, ooh, that's just sad. That's sad. So a- applying this to, say, uh, a lot of the people listening, and I'll give people just a little bit of context. The way that I do my podcast, the fact that I don't just a- ask the next follow-up question and shut the fuck up, the fact that I put a lot of context from my own life in between questions. Yeah.

I get hate, I get people to, "If only you did this, you'd be here," whatever, which we do pretty well, but, um- My, my point in, in, in saying that is, um, I, I have a podcast and people wanna tell me all the ways that I should do the show, right? Yeah. And it's hard sometimes because, you know, you have ups and downs, and this interview goes well, this one doesn't go as well as you want. You're always trying to improve, and I'm always trying to improve, but, but you, there's like this little voice that's over here saying, "Maybe they're right. Maybe if you did just ask questions this way, or maybe if you did keep your interviews to 20 minutes, or maybe if you did do this," right?

And, and I- That's a good place to go to hell. Yeah, yeah. Well, it, so I have learned, and I don't know what it is about my disposition, maybe it's my Irish heritage or whatever the fuck. I was born in a tiny little shithole town that I couldn't wait to get out of and have done everything I could to... Who knows what it is in my life, my past, or my DNA that I just have this ability to be like, "Don't care.

Here you, don't care." Yeah, yeah. However, so many people who want to be unique, who wanna be individuals, they fall, they ave- they can only hold out for so long, and then eventually they start to fall prey to all these voices. Yeah. So as someone who has been able to maintain your voice, work on your craft, know what your art is, and keep pushing for it, and, and not allow as much as possible those voices to get in, w- how would you, what would you say or what guidance would you give to people to, to, to, to stay in their box?

Or n- I don't mean their box. To stay- Yeah ... in their vision. In their lane. Their lane. In their la- yeah.

Yeah. To stay in themselves. H- how- Yeah ... how can they do that? Um, I mean my, uh, I think, uh, uh, this is, I'm gonna say this and then I'm gonna figure out a way to unsay it. Okay.

You're either born that way or you're not. Now I'm gonna find a way to unsay it. I think that you need your own set of goals. I, I don't like the word goals. Your own marks that you're gonna hit, right?

So here, I'll give you an example. Um, these are scales. Right? So you get a metronome and it goes tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. That's what it does, just ticks, right?

Yep. And mine's sitting over there and it's still one of these. I don't use my phone. I have a metronome. It goes tick, tick, made of wood.

When I was a kid, I wanted to be able to do these things at the bottom setting of the metronome. So the metronome's going tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, which is this. And you don't just do that. You start slow, and you work, and you work, and you work, and it takes frigging years to be able to do it. So to put those things out in front of yourself that you believe you need to paint your painting and to have your palette, to put them out in front of you and to achieve them, even something like as, as, that seems as menial as that, it's not menial because it's exercising your, your command of your own efforts.

Is this... Am I... Is this cryptic and bizarre? Yeah. Do you understand?

No. It's clear. No. I- no. So- I understand ... so there's, there's that kind of dexterity, and then there's...

And I'm gonna... I'll use musical stuff. There's harmony, there's melody, there's rhythm, there's all these things that if you don't know them, if you don't have the vinet- the vocabulary, what can you expect? What can you expect to accomplish if you don't know the vocabulary? Yeah.

So you can choose to learn the vocabulary even if no one else around you is learning the vocabulary. Because if you wanna play that chord, you gotta know something to play that chord. Yeah. You c- just, y- you might stumble on it in a million years, but you're probably not going to. So to see those things out there and to go, "What was that?

And I need to know what that is." Not, "I need to learn that thing." I need to know what it's made of so it becomes part of my colors. And I think in a sideways way, back to what I said, you're either born with this quest built into you or you're not, but if you're not built with it, what I'm saying is the truth, and there's no fucking shortcut. Yeah.

Okay? If you want this thing where you, your body and your mind feels like you're achieving something beyond yourself, and so you can emulate somehow this notion of greatness, if you don't bleed, you're not there. I don't give a shit. I don't care. Yeah.

You, you're just not. And so bad news maybe, but that's it. There's no other way. There's no other way. And that's what I would say.

I'd tell people, "Look, if you want this, first you have to f- look out there." Where, where is it? "Look out there somewhere and f- see what it is that you hear or that you see that you feel is worth the journey upwards." 'Cause the bar has to be way up above your head, or what's the point in running in a straight line? Yeah. Everybody can run in a straight line.

You hardly need legs to run in a fucking straight line. So set it way up there and spend the rest of your life going for it, and you'll always be satisfied. And you may be good at it, and you may not be good at it, but the second you follow, you're fucking dead. You're dead. What are you doing?

Who gives a shit if, if, if it's been done a million times and you can do it, too? I'm sorry. I mean, that's, that's as, that's as, that's as, as, as harsh as I'll get, but I really believe that there's truth in that. And when I look out and see what's going on, it breaks my heart because I know there's people out there that have this in them, and because they're doing this all day and whatever else they're doing, they're not even looking there. Yeah.

And it's not here. It's not here. It's not here. Yeah. It's not out there.

It's this and this and these and ours. Yeah. There's no- I, I, uh- So, so I, my kids, I, I told you I got, I got two kids, 10 and 8, two boys, and, um, they play video games, which in a... I don't have a problem with done regulated and certain amounts of time. Right.

That being said, sometimes they'll tell me about their video games, and I have this hiccup that they hate when I say this, but I think it's sinking in. I tell them, "Video games are fine. Optimize your real life, not your fake life." Yeah. Right?

That's... Yeah. Wow. Like, like- But- ... optimize your real life. Yeah.

Like, your real life is out here. Your real life is out here. Yeah. I think it's fine that you enjoy this video game. You wanna tell me about it, it's all good.

It's fun, you're kids, no problem. Yeah. That being said, do not ov- over-optimizing, that life is meaningless. This life out here is what's important. And, and my...

And- Right ... but I, I wanna, I wanna just surmise what you said, and then I have one more, uh, topic that I wanna dive into here with our time together. Um, what I heard you say there, and tell me if you think this is wrong or I'm mis- misstating what you said, is that we, our guiding star, guiding destination should be where our curiosity takes us. Because if we're curious about something, we will, we'll, we'll walk through the swamp, we'll chop down the tree- Mm-hmm ... we'll climb the mountain 'cause we have to know. Mm-hmm. We have to know how to play this chord, play this chord on this rhythm, play this chord- Yeah ... on this rhythm with this type of beat behind or whatever, right?

Mm-hmm. Like, we have to know because we're curious about it. We can't get enough of it. Where, and what happens is instead what we, what we're taught is, go do this thing, make this money, this is what your life should be. Someone who's from this town or this background- Right ... or this class of person goes and does this thing, and then we end up 40 years old looking, looking at our life going, "Oh my God, maybe I'm making enough money, maybe I'm not," but either way- I got a case of the fucking Mondays, and I, and I, I, if I tell my...

I told my team all the time, uh, when I, when I had my company, "If you put in 'I have a case of the Mondays,' 'It's hump day,' or 'Thank God it's Friday' into any of our communication channels- Yeah ... you and I are gonna have a one-on-one talk after this, 'cause this might not be the career for you." Right. Because if you are showing up- Right ... and the first thing you say to everyone is, "Happy hump day," this is not the place for you. Like, and I don't mean that in a negative way. It means that you don't- Yeah ... enjoy being here.

Like, that something about this is not grabbing you and pulling you in and capturing- Yeah ... your attention and making you interested. Right. And I feel so... I've made this mistake. I've had parts of my career where I was places that I didn't enjoy going, but I feel like, uh, now I wake up every day and I love what I do, but- Yeah ... it's because I'm curious about people like you, and I get to wake up every day and have conversations like this and hear you and listen to the cadence of your voice and the topics that bring you passion.

And I just wish more people had the balls to follow their curiosity and not- Yeah ... let what their community or their family or their spouse or society tells them you're supposed to be, and obviously we all have obligations we have to take care of. I'm not saying that. But, like, even if it's a hobby- Right ... fucking be curious about something. Right. Yeah, well, you know, I, I think something, something you just said made me m- made me think something too, is that if I was born right now, who knows?

Yeah. You know? It's, it, it's when I was born and where I was born and who I was around and, and I think it's just such a different generation. So to look at it and go, you know, all accolades or accomplishments or whatever you wanna call them, if I was born now, I, I might, I might have gone right to a video game and, you know, the porn channel and stayed there for the rest of my life. Yeah.

Who knows? Yeah. I mean, I was obsessive about what there was. So maybe it, it's a little bit of a, uh a little bit of an indictment of the times more than the people. Yeah.

I, I think that's true. You know? I, I do think that's true. I don't think that humans have changed. I don't, I don't think that.

I don't either. I don't think they've changed at all. I think that technology and society has changed, and I don't know if it's a net positive. Certainly not, in my opinion, for most aspects of creativity and general- Hmm ... joy day to day. But, uh, but I do...

I wanna, I wanna ask you, so you have the new album coming out. Yes. Um, I wrote down, you know, just preparing for this, and I, I tend not to prepare too much, 'cause I like to be very in the moment with you. But, uh, uh, having no, as we talked about at the very jump, uh, very little if not any, uh, zero musicality, um, when do you know you have a song in you? Like, what is that like?

To, to a, to someone who has never woken up in the morning and gone, "You know what? I have a song in me," right? Or whatever. What, what does that... W- how do you know you have that in you, or is it always in you and it's the discipline and it's just always coming out?

Like, like, as an artist, how, how do you know you have a song or an album in you that's, that should be packaged up? That there's a narrative, that there's a story to tell. How do you know when it's that time? Well, that's a good question. That's a, that's a, that's a lot of question.

Yeah. Um, me s- me specifically, I have my own template and my own paradigm for this. Somebody else, how do they know? Um, I, I wrote two songs this morning before 8:00 for a musical I'm working on with someone. Two.

Finished. Recorded them. Sent them off. I've been practicing for playing live and looking at stuff I wrote with other people. Um, couple Madonna songs, couple Leonard Cohen songs.

Um, if right now... Here, we'll just do this just for the fuck of it. I'm just gonna improvise. Yeah. Yeah, I'm just gonna improvise.

Love it. And if I kept going, I might get into something. So I might find a rhythm, I might... And I can do this all day. Yeah.

I've done it all day my whole life, and so I'm never at a loss- Yeah ... for what to do. If you, if you right now put some words up on the screen, I could write a song to it. Yeah. 'Cause that's what I'm an expert at. So I think what it, what it comes down to is you, y- you acquire the tools so that you're an expert in your field. And if you can't s- if you're gonna be a songwriter like, and, and a piano player, if you can't sit down and just play whatever there is and just make, make music without any, any notion of what it's gonna be, and let yourself and your fingers and your ears and your heart and your experiences guide you through this- Then I wouldn't do it if I were you.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Y- y- you know what's wild is you were playing that riffing, and, um, what, what, what was going on in my head was a young man walking through the woods, and then when you hit that beat change, it was like he stepped onto a city block. Yeah.

And, like, that, like, that visual was going on in my head when I was listening to you- Mm ... and I was like, man, this sounds like I'm walking through the woods. And I was wondering, like, when you're playing, because your fingers at this point have, have become just, uh, uh, uh, you're obviously not thinking about your fingers, you're thinking about the sounds that you wanna make, I'm, I'm assuming. I'm not thinking about anything. Yeah, yeah. Like, are you- I- ... picturing a scene in your head and this is- No ... the song that goes along with the scene?

Or... No, I'm not doing anything. Yeah. I mean, I can talk and do this. It doesn't matter.

Yeah. I'm not doing anything. I'm just... Yeah. I mean, I can do it all day long, but it's, it's, it's only music when you make music out of it.

Yeah. So as an example of something, 'cause I, I, there's a couple things that I, that I've done that are f- fairly recognizable. I would sit down in the morning and I would do this all the time, and then one morning I... You sit down and you go . And you go, "Oh, that's nice."

And that's Live to Tell, M- the Madonna song. Yeah. Or you go and these are things or, you know . And it, they're just these things that occur, and then you grab them as they go by, but they only occur if you have vocabulary. Yeah.

And they only occur if you have enough skill to be free in what you're doing. Right? Yeah. So- It's, um, you know, there's, um, this is a meme, and I don't, it sounds trite, but I don't mean it to be because I honestly think it's some of this most sage wisdom that's, uh, come out of our modern society. Um, it's, it's kinda like, fuck around and find out.

Like, like, get out there and mess around- Yeah ... and see what happens when you push this button, pull this lever, make this decision, take this action. Yeah. Like, and we just- Yeah ... I, I feel like so many of us, so many people, we wake up every day and it's just like, tell me the answer. I don't wanna do the work, I just wanna get the answer.

Just give me the answer. I don't really wanna do the work. And it's like, yeah, but you don't really own the answer or how to apply the answer- Right ... if you don't, if you haven't actually done the work to acquire the skill and the knowledge. And like you said, if you haven't, if you're not bleeding, what are you doing? You know?

Well, a- also y- y- you need a skill set and you need a vocabulary. Like, in this case, the, the thing of noodling around on the piano, you need a musical vocabulary, and you're not born with one. You don't come with a vocabulary. You have to put it in. So however you do that, if you, if this is gonna be your expression, then you should do that.

If you're gonna be a lyricist, you need to be able to read. You know what I mean? And you need to be able to process what you're reading. Yeah. Otherwise, that's, what are you, how good are you gonna be at this?

And the idea that your tech- the technology can give you the rhymes you need and the computer can play chord changes for you, and that you can be the artist on top of that, you can call it art if you want to, but I wouldn't. I wouldn't be able to, not with a clear conscience. And I know that that pisses a lot of people off, and there's probably a lot of people who actually have very artistic hearts, and this is exactly their process. And I'm not gonna say they're not artists, it's just that they're not gonna create something that's theirs. Theirs.

All they're really doing is manipulating other people's notions. And very unpopular thing I'm saying right now, and people don't like I- I- I really go there, because I'd just as soon leave everybody alone to do whatever they wanna do, and I'm fine with it. And the truth of it is, I am fine with it. You know why? I don't have to listen to it.

Yeah. And I won't listen to it, 'cause why would I? And not that what I'm doing is any better, and maybe it's worse as far as they're concerned, but it, but I'm okay with it. And just like they're okay with what they're doing. You know?

I think I'm, I think I'm copping out of everything right now, but you know. No, you're good. You're good. Patrick, um, the new album is A Walk in the Woods? No.

This has been one... Right? The new album is called It All Comes Down to Mood. Oh. Well, then- The single, the single is A Walk in the Woods.

The single is A Walk in the Woods. I had it backwards. I'm sorry. I had it backwards. I'm sorry.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, I... Dude, this has been one of my favorite conversations I've had in a long time. Oh, I'm so glad to have met you.

I am so glad to have met you. You too, man. I, uh, I can't wait, um, to, uh, to dig in and I, I, I've been... It's funny, in research I started listening to your, to your stuff, and I was like, "Oh, shit, he was involved in that, and he was involved..." I, you know, I just didn't, I didn't know.

Yeah. How would you? And, uh- Yeah. And I just, I, I, I dig what you're doing. I dig your mindset.

I think, uh, I hope what the audience has taken from this is, uh, uh, obviously the application to, to, to pure arts, but that these concepts, these ideas, this, this idea of owning exactly who you are and making... Your, your art could be, could be your coffee shop, or it could be, you know, how you just execute your task inside an organization. But I think I love this idea that you shared of having, of understanding the vocabulary, of understanding the core pieces, the, the, the ones and zeros of what you do, so that you can ma- make it unique, y- your own. Um- Yeah ... I appreciate you, I appreciate your time.

Great. Where can people go to, uh, get the album? Uh, where can people go to learn more about you, connect with you, follow along with what you have going on? Um, you know, the, there's, there's a little social media starting now that I, I won't be managing because- Yeah ... I, I tried Instagram about seven years ago, and I did it for a little while and went, "This is distracting me," so I stopped.

Yep. But now there's somebody who will do it. The album is coming out on vinyl- Um, in July at the, at the latter part of July, I think the 17th or 28th- Okay ... um, the A Walk in the Woods is coming out digitally, I think on the 28th of June. Okay. Um, and the album will be available digitally after it's released on the vinyl or I think it may be even all be the same day.

Um, you know, it, it, it's, it's an old school thing. It's an old school record and, and I, I really designed it to be a vinyl. Um, but I think it's a good listen either way, and, you know, I like it. Yeah. Uh, so, so I'll leave you, I'll leave you the audience with this.

So, um, my dad, uh, gave me about 100 of his original prints from the '70s and, and, and '60s, uh, vinyl records, and I have, uh, um, Queen, um, A Night at the Opera, so I have Bohemian Rhapsody on original print. Yeah. And, and I played the Spotify version of the song, and my kids love it. You know, who doesn't love Bohemian Rhapsody? Yeah.

And then I said, "Okay, so you've heard that version. Now listen to this on..." Because I have some old school speakers. They're not, you know, old, old school, but they're less digitized and less compressed- Yeah. ... than a lot of the new shit. Yeah.

And, um, I said, "Now listen to this," which has to be, it had to be pushed through a r- you know, a receiver, which most don't anymore, you know? Yep. And I go, "Wa, na, na, na, na, na," and l- and they're like, it was like blowing their little minds. Like- Right ... the, the, they, you could tell even at that age, you know, and we're just, we're not a musical family, but, like, you could just see them reacting more to how the vinyl captures the full scope of the music, and we don't have to get into the technicalities of it. I just think, um- Do you know the technicalities of it?

I mean, I don't wanna keep you, but do you know? I know bits. No, explain it. No, I would love to hear it. It's, it's so simple.

We can finish with this. No, I love it. It's so simple, and it's- Yeah, please ... really beautiful. When you, when you have a vinyl, you have grooves that were cut into this material, this plastic vinyl, right? Yep.

And when you put the needle in it, the needle is moved back and forth. It's vibrated by those grooves, and then that goes into an amplifier that vibrates the speakers in an extreme way, i- i- i- in an amplified version of what the needle is doing. Yeah. So this is 100% physical. Yeah.

When you're listening to music that's on your phone or digitally, you're listening to zeros and ones that are telling your brain this is music. It's the same zeros and ones that are telling you your movie's a movie. It's the same zeros and ones that are telling you your pictures are pictures. There is no, there's only zeros and ones, and it's how fast they go, and it's how they scramble, and your brain registers them like that. Vinyl is an organic reality, and your body feels that right away.

So one is out here, and the other one goes in, and I don't, I mean, I just listen to vinyl these days. Yeah. I, once, once I set up the vinyl and decided to make a vinyl and went back and listened to a lot of my old vinyls and rebought a lot of them 'cause they're, they go back to the '70s, and they don't really play anymore, on the warm up, and I sat and listened. It's like, "Oh, yeah. That's right.

That's right." Yeah. This is a whole, a whole nother thing. I hear you. And, you know, it's certainly not a, a contemporary notion, but it's a great way to consume it, and, you know, so why not?

If I, if I, you know, if I can do it, I'm gonna do it. I love it. I'm right there with you. Patrick, I wish you nothing but the best. I appreciate you.

You too. I appreciate you sharing your time with us, and, uh- Thank you. Pleasure ... uh, we'll see you down the road. Thank you. Yeah.

Be good, man. Thank you. Let's go. Yeah. Every week we share the ideas, stories, and insights of elite performers that you can use in your business and life.

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