Shefi Ben-Hutta on Why Being an Outsider is a Superpower

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In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. Yes, we're back. And today we have a tremendous episode. Just an absolutely tremendous episode.

Just an episode you're going to love, especially if you're like a geek, a nerd. If you dig into insurance and you're just kind of into it. You're into thinking about it. You're into thinking about the way the industry works, the people, the systems, the institutions. Not just the coverage or sales, which is cool.

I mean, that's a huge part of our business. But if you dig in a little deeper into how the industry actually operates and mixes, you're just going to love this episode. Because we have Shefi Ben-Hutta on the podcast. She's one of the co-founders of Coverager, the publication for InsurTech News in our industry. And what's funny is we talk a little bit about my Agency Nation days because when she was kind of building up Coverager was when I was kind of building Agency Nation.

Obviously, Agency Nation isn't a part of my life anymore. But Coverager is very much a part of hers. And where Agency Nation was talking about sales and marketing and that kind of stuff, Coverager was focused on InsurTech and technology and startups and that whole side. So what I love about Shefi and we talk a lot during the episode about how we actually disagree on different things but how our vision for the industry and how our perspectives and the way that we approach it, we both have tremendous respect for each other. And I just – I dig the way Shefi thinks about this industry.

I just do. I just think – like I said, I don't always agree with every conclusion that she comes to but I ultimately think that having her voice and her mindset and her perspective is an incredible – like we – the industry is better because she is commentating and reporting and supporting various businesses and parts of our industry. I don't know how else to say it but Shefi Ben-Hudda, Coverager, you're going to love this episode. Before we get there, I want to talk about Better Agency. Better Agency is changing the game for me, absolutely, positively changing the game for Rogue Risk.

I am looking at this tool as it is the first tool that I log into every single day. It's the first tool I log into. I will look oftentimes at my Better Agency before I look at my email. And the reason is it does everything my agency needs, absolutely everything. And there's a decent chance that eventually I don't need an agency management system because I have better agency.

I basically have to figure out how to get Accords and Accounting. And I'm getting close on Accounting and Accords are super easy, right? There's like a million places that you can get Accords. Because I just – I think what they have built is – I just think it's tremendous. And I've been with Infusionsoft.

I've been with Agency Zoom. Both of those tools are great. And there are amazing agents that use both of them. So this is not a knock on any other tool. I just have found Better Agency to be – it's built by insurance agency owners and that is obvious.

And I think that's the part that works for me is that I look at it. I see the way that William Shaw and Nick Ayers and Preston and McBilly and everyone else that's involved, I see the way that they interact with agents, the way they roll out new features. It just makes sense. And I'm digging it, man. I am loving every day of it.

I use it every day. I've never questioned my decision to move over. And when we were talking and they said they wanted to be a sponsor of the show, it was just – it made me very happy because I get to talk about it more. Not that I wouldn't talk about it. But I just – if you are unhappy with your solution that is helping you connect with customers, helping you cross-sell with customers, that's helping you get in front of customers in the moments of their need, I would give Better Agency at least do the demo.

Like I said, with all the tools. I don't care that you buy the tool. That's not why I talk about them. Do the demo. Know what the tool is.

So if you have a need, you know what it's all about. That's all I'm asking. Go to betteragency.io. Betteragency.io. Betteragency.io.

All right. Let's get on to Sheffy. Ryan. How are you? Hey.

How are you? I'm good. I'm good. It's Friday. It's not 100 degrees and life is good.

So how are you? It's a bit cloudy in New York City, but it's still warm. Yeah. I'm excited that you're on the show. Have we started the show yet?

Yeah, kind of. I just kind of roll into it. Okay. Okay. I always, I just like kind of just go in because whenever I do like one, two, three, go, it's always weird because you're like looking at each other like, oh, now it's like official when it's kind of like, it's just meant to be a conversation anyway.

So there's not really like a, it's a casual start. We'll just put it that way. You're the boss. Well, I don't know that that's true, but I do have the start stop button. So I guess that does make me the boss.

But after our conversation that we had, what was it a week or so ago? I just was super excited to share as much of that as we can, or just kind of hit on some of these same topics and share with, with people who are listening. I think a lot of people are familiar with you and your work who would follow my show. And I think there's a lot of people that aren't, and I want to expose more people to what you're doing. And I think the conversation that we had around just InsurTech, its role agents, some of the stuff we're talking about, about, you know, fat old white guys with whiskey making deals in dark rooms in the back of bars that only certain people can get into.

I think that's like really interesting stuff. And, and that's, we'll just hit on all that and anything else that we want to talk about. For the record, I was never part of any club. Well, I'm not part of any clubs either. You know what I mean?

They didn't want me either. So don't worry. That's why I own my own agency and do this kind of renegade podcast, I guess. I, uh, um, yeah, no, no one wanted me in there. So I think this is a bit fluff, but one of the best things to come out of InsurTech is that you're getting some diverse range of employers coming into insurance.

And for people like me, this is a good thing because I always felt like an outsider. And for, for, for a period of time, I was the outsider because I was working for an Israeli startup. Right. And then I started, and then I joined corporate, corporate insurance and I guess I'm not corporate material, but what does, what does that even mean? So I, I, I've done a lot of good with CNA and I've managed to influence a lot of people, but obviously when you're in corporate, you have to know how to manage sideways and above and to get noticed.

And I've done that through blogging. So nobody wanted to hear my opinion, but when other people or, or a cloud or the crowd or the public liked what I had to say, that gave me a clout. And then, you know, you know, anyway, it's, I'm a big believer in blogging. And just because people internally may not want to hear or act on what it is you have to say, stick to it and good things do come out. But that's not what we want to talk about.

Right. No, no, I love this topic because diversity in our industry is a, is a huge, um, it, one, it's a big issue because we have been pale, stale and male for so long. Um, and you know, I, I have nothing against white people, but for the most part, we're boring as shit. And we tend to think inside of standardized boxes. And I love when we can allow, um, you know, I don't know that my vantage point is let's tear down the system for the purpose of tearing it down.

But I certainly believe that our systems constantly need to be reformed and constantly need to be reexamined. And you have to, uh, create structures in which voices that are not, you know, I hate thinking of it this way, but you know, are not like the norm can rise up and have a place. And unfortunately, you know, I think like with all hierarchical structures, which, you know, and we talked a little bit about this, I, I believe in hierarchies of opportunity, like not hierarchies that, that segment and segregate, but ultimately I think we want cream to rise to the top. And if we didn't operate in a, in a semi meritocratous hierarchical environment, your coverager would not be in the place that it is today. Right?

Like you were able to rise up, become a voice inside of specifically the insure tech space and provide a vantage point that I don't know that anyone else could because you, you know, you were doing such good work for so long that people started to take notice. They started to listen, then they started to believe, then they started to trust. And now you're able to operate a business based on that trust. So I, um, I, I, I agree. I guess it's a very long winded way of saying, yes, I agree.

Well, our point is because I know there are two types of audiences that coverager has one people that would add us on pop in, in social media or via email and in public, but then there are others that keep their opinions to themselves and they have to, because corporate wants it to be a certain way. Right. So I kind of ignored the, the, you know, the corporate mindset, but I had the privilege to ignore it and blog when I was part of CNA. Uh, and I, I did actually do it in a smart way where I asked permission and back, back then CNA didn't have a blogging policy. And I think this is all really important because at some point you have to, uh, take ownership of your career and say, well, if this is an industry that a lot of time, not necessarily promote based on merit, what am I going to do to make sure that I stay ahead?

So it's just, it's all about personal growth at this point. And, uh, my tip is just, uh, stick to your voice and I like solving small problems. I never said the, well, I never set out to be necessarily an entrepreneur. I just wanted to influence the little things that I thought weren't working in my space. And a lot of it was, uh, you know, kind of where you and I, uh, have similar experience and it was working with commercial insurance agents and trying to make them act in a more digital fashion.

Yeah. Back then it was a lot of Facebook marketing. Uh, and thank God we moved away from that. Yes. Yeah.

Contests and giveaways and yeah, yeah. Gimmicks and tricks and gags and some of that stuff still works, but it's not necessarily, uh, best practices anymore. Like it once was, if you had a Facebook page, you were literally ahead of the curve at one point, which is interesting. Um, you know, the point that you made about, I think what I like about our space in the insurance industry as a whole is that it really does have a space for everybody. And I feel like, um, and, and I'll, I'll, I'll expand on that in just a second, but I feel like oftentimes when we feel points of friction, it's that we just haven't, we just haven't found the right spot in the industry.

It's not because the industry has opportunity in so many forms. You can be, um, commentator, uh, media space. That's kind of where you operate. And I guess I used to, and I'm kind of, we have agent space, which is more sales oriented, more maybe in a certain sense on entrepreneurial leadership focused. You can be, um, you know, if you're just interested in a solid salary and a good life and your work is never going to be your passion, but you would like to do something meaningful.

You can operate inside of an agency. If you are into more of the corporate political game and the shield on your chest, you know, that that's meaningful to you, which again, that's not a judgment. That's just, if that's what you're into, some people really like corporate life. There are huge mega towered organizations that you can go become part of and work your way up that hierarchy. If you're interested in the nerdy shit, you can become an actuary or an underwriter or, you know, whatever you can get into claims.

Like there's so many different spots that you can find yourself in. You can become a technologist. You can become a vendor. You, you know, there's, you can create conferences and run conferences. Like it's all, you can work for Tesla.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well now, yeah. So, um, you know, which is unfortunate because I'm, I drink from the Elon Musk fire hose and I just believe basically everything he does is going to work eventually.

So that should scare the shit out of every personal auto, uh, both carrier who isn't making a deal with him and, uh, and PL agent. But, um, I, I guess that's what I love about this space and what, when I left, what I missed about it because, um, it just, there is a space for everybody. And I think at different times, maybe we're not in the right part of our industry and it needs to be, maybe, you know, you need to move over here and move over there. But I do think there's a space for everybody. And, um, and I think that's a good thing.

I think it's a, it's an exciting part about our industry. I second that opinion. I think you can do a lot of things with an insurance that being said, I wouldn't tell my sister, come join the industry. Yeah. I will say though.

And so I tell everybody this, the thing I do, and this might sound bad, but, um, there's just so much money here. So like you can, even a job that isn't, you know, some big, sexy entrepreneurial sales position or executive, you're still going to make good money and you're still going to probably have some decent job security. I know every once in a while, one of the big carriers will do some layoffs, especially if there's a merger or something. But for the most part, you have good job security, usually good benefits and usually good pay versus that same position in another space. So that part of it, I find to be reassuring if that's something that you need in your life and not everyone does, nor, you know, and some people just be like, that product is boring.

I don't, I don't like it, which I also get right. Like when I was in fitness industry, that was sexy as hell. I mean, you're surrounded by fit co-eds everywhere and like, you know, you can dress in shorts and I go, I'm in shorts and a t-shirt now basically, but like, you know, like pre-COVID, you know, we're in suits and ties and, you know, and, and, uh, you know, it was a little different. So there was, there was some cool stuff there too, but, um, I just think, uh, well, maybe as, as I get older and now that I have kids, like I think about it and I'm like, geez, everything that happened with COVID, there are few other industries that I would want to be part of other than insurance with everything that happened because, you know, we were still working. There's still opportunities.

Um, you know, you may have to be a little, you may have to think a little differently, pivot a little bit, maybe this way or that way, but the opportunities were still there. It's not like a lot of these industries where they're just like, nope, you're done. Have a nice day. You're not making money anymore. Uh, I slightly disagree.

So I think the word, the world you're describing is, is changing. So I, I don't see a lot of job security, but that's, maybe that's because we cover layoffs and we tend to kind of be on the side where people come to us and say, have you heard of an opportunity or, uh, we had to decrease, uh, force and obviously, you know, glass door and the layoffs.com and a lot of more, a lot more carriers are looking to become more efficient. And that oftentimes is mere meaning automation is up and certain roles are going down, but you know, it all depends on, you said you can be many things in insurance and it's also on the insurance professional to make sure that his job, uh, what he's offering or what he's bringing to the table is relevant today as it's going to be relevant in five years from now. And it's, it's hard to change when something hits you, but if you have time to think about what you're doing and from, from the longest that I can remember, just talking about myself, I overthink and overanalyze and it's a blessing and a curse, but you know, if you're passionate about what you do, then, uh, you can't stop thinking about what you do. So that has been my world, but I do think that, you know, claim adjusters are, may have a harder time.

Customer service roles where, how do you even ladder up, uh, can be a challenge again. InsureTech is bringing new opportunities, but with that, um, it's not the same job security as the, some folks had, I don't, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think, I, I think that's fair. I, I guess what I'm, and maybe in, so the world that I obviously always think through first is the agency world, right?

I think that job security in an independent insurance agency is very secure. And I don't know that there are going to be tremendous. I don't think there's going to be a huge hiring push in agencies because I think many agencies are looking for ways to become more efficient, but what I don't see are people getting fired from agencies. I think what agencies are saying is, okay, we have a team of 10. We might not need to hire another person, but we certainly, we can grow with this team of 10 and we don't need to get rid of anyone to add efficiencies, right?

So we can, so I, so I think that's a very fair point. You operate from a different angle and see different pieces. So I think that's a fair point. I would say from the agency side, I do still see a lot of job security, if not more for, for, for, particularly for people who are willing to operate in some function of a sales position. That doesn't have to be a hardcore outbound sales position.

It could be a service oriented person who's willing to cross sell stuff like that. Like, you know, the deeper I get into the agency, the more I realize how valuable someone who's willing to ask someone else to buy something is and how few people there are who are willing to do that and for, for some, even if you're bad at it, if you're willing to ask someone else to buy something from you, that is an enormous asset in your, if we're talking about Scott Adams is a skill stack or whatever he talks about, right? Like, like it is an enormous asset for you. So, um, maybe my mind is skewed more towards that, towards those sales oriented organizations. I'm sure, I'm sure if you're running a startup right now and insure tech and you're looking at maybe some, some investment dollars drying up and some people getting scared and just holding back, you're probably nervous.

You're probably thinking about letting people go. Yeah, I agree. No, I agree. So, you know, one of the things, another thing that we didn't talk about on the phone and you can talk about this as much as you want to or don't want to, but, um, I think it's interesting. You know, I don't know a tremendous number of people, um, from Israel.

I just, I, I don't know. And I'm, I'm just interested in, uh, a little bit, like you came from an Israeli insure tech, like how, how are the worlds different? You know, um, just do they operate differently? Is it basically the same, just slightly different cultures or are the cultures dynamically different? Like, I don't know, just whatever parts of that experience you're interested in sharing in, um, I'm, I'm just interested in that.

So this is, well, I can only speak from my experience, obviously. Right. But when I worked in Israel, then I worked for an, I worked for an insurance agency back. So I joined, uh, when I was 19 years old. Right.

So, uh, back then my understanding of insurance was very little and it was a lot of asking people. I was the one asking people to buy and it was around home insurance and auto insurance, but you did many things at once. You, I mean, when you needed to follow up on, uh, on billing or on claims, you did that too. So it was kind of, I was always wearing many hats. I, back then that we had something that was very similar to comparative raters right now, and I didn't trust them.

So I would just go directly to every single personal lines, uh, portal that we have and, and use it. And actually my, my colleague, which was older than me, probably by 20 years, she loved that, uh, efficiency and being able to see a spreadsheet of about three quotes. At the time. And then she would go and finalize one. And it, so it had nothing to do with age or being digital savvy.

I don't think I called myself digital savvy at the time, but you know, it was just about, I wanted to do, I would, I would take the long route in everything in life. I think the long route, it's actually, I work, you know, obviously Carvager, um, is still like 90% family business. And now we have Nick, but my brothers will, well, you sell me like, you will take the longer, the long and safe route. Right. So that was me from, from, uh, the beginning and what I think the culture, the culture back then, I don't know if it's different, uh, in the U S uh, you know, obviously when you're in the sales role, you want to sell.

And I had no problem saying, you know, if a person is on the phone, you're always very polite. You, you know, you, you know, your shit, right. You know what you're selling. You, you pay attention to coverage, but my first question was kind of, okay, are you shopping? Uh, what's the quote, where do I need to get like, I'm not here to waste your time or my time.

Price was really important. And even though, you know, it was, it was a lot of fun working for fun. Okay. It was, you know, sometimes I would leave work tearful and sometimes I would leave work happy. Salary was awesome.

I would tell you that, um, hours were flexible. So basically I was able to, you know, go to school and finish my math degree while working at insurance and nobody was making the money I was making. That was, that was the reality of it. And it helped. And I would say, you know, I maybe here in America, the things are, are being done differently.

Maybe in Israel, a lot of more open culture where we, you could just ask, but I, I'm not, I'm not entirely sure about that because I do hear other people's feedback and I think it just all depends on the relationship and the state and, uh, where you want to get, you know, we all have, uh, as an agency, you have the carriers that you represent. So you, you have an idea of where you can go. So, um, if someone comes with a really high, uh, Mercedes and you know, they don't have a loss history, that would have been a challenge for us. Right. So I would have to knock on, uh, my boss's door and then say, do you actually want this?

Do you want this risk? So it was a lot of, a lot of backstories, right? It was not all automation placed to risk and go, uh, because we used to get a lot of, uh, and we got a lot of fun stories. We actually had one where somebody was going to a gala, Israel, Israel is not big on galas, by the way. I mean, back then we would go to, uh, to weddings and in heels and nice jeans, diesel when diesel was something, but you know, he wanted to, uh, he took a really, he rented a really expensive necklace for his wife and we had a few hours to insure it.

So we called the under, I mean, there was no way it was going to be done just going by portals. So you pick up the phone to the underwriter a half an hour before she needs to leave and catch the bus to go home. And you say, do I have your word is discovered. Um, and she, you know, the yelling and no, what are you doing to me? And yes, okay, go, go for it.

And I know we were all coming back the next day. No claims, no claims. We're good. Okay. Bring that, take that necklace back to the jewelry store.

So I learned that it's not all black and white. Um, but you know, sometimes with an agency, which you don't always have on the carrier side, you want to ensure the risk. You want to give service. You, you want to say yes. And I think these were all, uh, just helpful lessons along, along the way.

Yeah, I, I actually, I really love that story because I do think the people who are drawn to, I think there's two types of people that are drawn to agency life. I think it's people who just like to make money, are sales focused, are growth focused type people. Like that's just the way their mind works. And then I think there's problem solvers. I think there's people who just enjoy solving problems.

They enjoy helping people and, and anyone can get burnout. You know what I mean? I think, I think we're seeing that a lot with baby boomer, baby boomer, business owner, uh, agency owners. Sorry. We're seeing agency owners that are just a little burnt, right?

I mean, the ecosystem is so different from when they started, from when they were trained, from when they learned and not right or wrong. But I think, you know, when you've hit a certain amount of personal income and now you're being forced to learn an entirely, and it is different. I mean, this is a different way of doing business than it was. And not even just like, like, yes, you still have to write coverage. Yes.

Underwriting still matters. Yeah. You know, these types of core issues, but communication is different. Speed is different. Technology is different.

Um, you know, my, my, my, my, my father-in-law has talked to me before sometimes about how he communicates with people who are in their twenties when he asked to sell them and not that he can't do it because he's one of the best salespeople I've ever met in my life, but he's just shared with me that it's different. It's, it's way, way different than how he used to talk to people. Just everything about the transaction. So I can see why, you know, they just kind of revert back to what they know. Cause they're like, well, I don't want to have to learn another new way of doing business.

And, um, but I think everyone got in the business either because they like, they were looking for a way to feed their family and they, they're cool with sales or they like solving problems. I think, I think that's why people get in the business and probably, you know, somewhere in between for all those things. Yeah. Well, and to your point, we're not always wearing that, uh, salesperson hat. So for me, you stayed because I was, you know, probably one of the shyest girls you'll know.

And it forced me to communicate with people and that we had, we, you know, we had a very successful insurance agency. We started, it's not mine. Uh, I worked for a very successful insurance agency, but we started working out of probably kind of an illegal space as part of a building, um, in a city close to Tel Aviv in Israel. And right now, um, they, he's actually owning a building in Tel Aviv. So always growth, always more people, always more stuff to do.

And so if you, I would, I would get bored easily, but you're, to be honest, you're never bored when you work with people, but it's at a certain point you want to say, well, you know, what do I want to do when I grow up and, uh, that's when I, you know, gave in my notice and left and decided that I want to do something with my degree and just, I don't know how, but by luck or by accident or whatnot, I ended up working for an, an insure tech vendor, right? So just taking a business analyst role for somebody that was selling comparative raters, right? That same product that I wouldn't use. Uh, that was my job to, uh, go ahead and write, uh, requirements for it and then come to the U S and work with agents to get them to adopt the product. So I was always on the phone and I was always doing demos.

And if you know anything about online demos and an early stage tech company, there are going to be a lot of hiccups and, you know, I had my mental rule, you know, we, we don't talk about politics because Israel, it's a no, no, and, uh, you know, I'm not really good with sports and, you know, we'll start talking about the weather and you chit chat and you get to learn and yeah, I had the best of time. I mean, sometimes it wasn't always where I wanted to, you know, ensure tech doesn't move as fast as you like. And if you, if you, you know, if you want to do a lot more, um, that may be a frustrating point working for other people. And, uh, yeah, I think, you know, that's, that was my, my professional career, um, had a lot of like frustrating points. And then I realized the problem is me in a sense, because nobody can, I can't expect my managers to move as fast as I want to, to move.

And that was the importance of, of, of blogging. And basically, basically in my point, like just controlling your own faith, I just like bringing the crowd to where you think, uh, the industry can go, needs to go, et cetera. Well, I think that's very similar to what you've been doing. Yeah. I was going to say, I think we share that in common is that, uh, I don't do well with bosses because I move very fast.

And when, anytime you're a, you have to have a very special boss for them to allow someone that they manage to run unbridled. And, um, I do not work well with a bridal in most circumstances. Um, so it, um, so yeah, so I completely feel you. And it's, it's just funny listening to you, tell your story and talk about different frustration points and different jumps. And you said you were a math major.

Yeah. I was a math major too. Um, so, uh, it's just funny cause, cause blogging was my outlet as well. That was how I, I don't know, released whatever was going on. And you know, and my wife used to ask me all the time, like, why do you feel this sense that you have to write or create or do a video or a pot?

Like, why do you have to now she's kind of accepted it and it's good, but like, yeah, she used. Yeah. I was like, I was like, Lauren, if I don't get whatever's up here, if it doesn't come out of me, then it's like, it's like poison. Like it just, you know what I mean? Like I just need to get it out, whatever it is.

And if it's just a blog post about workers comp, that's fine. I mean, it's not as cathartic as other pieces of content, but, but you know, you just got to get it out of you. But you know what it is, Ryan? It's not just that it's not about the act of creating and writing because it's really tedious and lengthy and you're not always on people's positive side with what you have to say. It's, it's because it works.

Um, we put ideas in people's mind or we, or we emphasize or echo what they've been thinking and they're afraid to say out loud, out loud. And what you're seeing is progress. And I can look at progress in different ways. Progress is an insurance professional going from career A to career B because he's more knowledgeable of the space. And I can look at it as a partnership or an, a really early stage startup.

That's basically a landing page and two people getting a call from an, uh, an incumbent, an established carrier saying, you know, we saw you being featured. What is this about? Right. It's all these encouragements along the way. And, you know, back then when covered before coverage, it was insurance entertainment before insurance entertainment, it was just a Shafi business analyst from CNA.

You, I would go to, um, I think I once emailed insurance journal. I write really nice emails for a living. You guys know that, but you know, I wanted to cover an article about, you know, commercial, commercial insurance agents and the digital space, you know, don't hear back property casualty. Don't hear back. I volunteered my time at different associations of like marketing and whatnot.

I can't even remember which ones I've never heard back, never heard back. I, and I thought to myself, hold on. If I'm an educated insurance professional working for a carrier, never not work the day in my life. Why is it so hard to offer my time to be a part of a community association or anything? I do want to, um, give credit or I don't know if Agathe, Agathe, uh, you used to work with Agathe, Martha, Martha, Marty, Agathe, Marty Agathe.

I'm sorry, Marty. He, um, he's one heck of a guy. I don't know if I met him. I met him in person at an event and I was doing infographics at the time. Right.

And, uh, this is back then when president, president Obama was the president and he got a, he got a puppy or to the white house. And I thought my whole world was insurance agents. And I thought if I could, if I could help insurance agents create content for social media. So it was an infographic about, you know, pet insurance. It was just like current events and leading into pet insurance, really basic, basic stuff.

Kind of, we were embarrassing to say this, but it's been years ago and, um, and he, he paid attention to me and I thought, okay, this, I, he didn't know me. Uh, he, I guess he just saw the passion and saw what was in it. And I think we had a follow-up discussion and it w it was just so nice. Right. But it's, it's such, these are such rare encounters, uh, that you, that somebody else that you don't know, complete stranger supports your cause.

And I could say that about all the, like the 30, 40 C, the readers of coverager and insurance to entertainment that's been with us throughout the years. Right. So it's, um, it's just, it's, it's just a way to say, well, thank you. That's all I can say. Well, Marty is, um, one of my favorite people in the entire world.

He's also one of the most genuine people in the entire world. And, uh, you know, he, he is a real treasure to our industry, who I think, who I personally believe has been underappreciated by many people. I am, it makes my heart sing that you would bring him up and that he had. I've lost touch with him. So Marty, hi.

And, uh, you, you, I hope you remember the story as I remember it, but I do remember some of the people that said yes to me because not so many people said no to me as much as it's just something that kind of goes ignored. Maybe, maybe they don't trust her. You know, we shouldn't trust her yet because is she committed? And by the way, I ask myself the same questions. We get emails from startups and sometimes people don't understand that I have a daily deadline and we're a short team and get to the point, tell me in an email, if I can help, I'll help.

But people just want to have coffee with you pre COVID days. And now they just want 30 minutes of your time and 30 minutes become 60 minutes. And you know, there you go. The day goes. Sometimes I just want to go out for a walk and I'd always be around, um, coverage or insurance.

So I do the same thing where I say, is this person for real? And what I mean by that, it takes a lot of commitment to do something, right? I always say patience, patience, power, because I know my journey. Um, and yeah, maybe people were asking that about me. So now they realize.

I think I would say that's probably the case. And I mean that because much of what you just described, I've, I've felt, and it's only from kind of similar to what you did. You just keep banging on the door. You keep bang. And then eventually you realize, fuck the door.

I'm just going to create my own, right? I'll put the stick of dynamite on the wall next to the door and I'll blow my own hole and I'll walk through. And you can choose to appreciate that or not appreciate it. And I think that you've done that with Coverger. It's one of the reasons that Marty's actually the one that initially introduced me to your work when it was insurance entertainment.

He's like, yo, you ever Ryan, Ryan, have you ever heard about this chefie girl? Have you ever heard about this chefie? Come read this. That was how, that was my introduction to you. And then I saw something you wrote when you were writing for insurance entertainment.

Um, but, uh, you know, I think you've done that. It's one of the reasons I've always had respect for your work. I mean, there are certain things that you have said that I just disagree with. We've talked about that. That's not a bad thing.

I think it's an amazing thing, but, um, the reason, but, but what I think, what I wish more of the industry would acclimate to, and I do believe that this is rapidly changing. We talked a little bit about this is that we agree on a lot of things. We disagree on other aspects of it. Some of the stuff we just see from different vantage points, but we can also have complete mutual respect for each other's work. And I think that there was a time even not so long ago when that was not the case.

If you did not step lock, you know, in, if you did not act in lock step with the standard operating procedure of the industry, you were pushed aside. And there are countless people. I mean, a good, you know, my one, probably my best buddy in the whole space. If not the, if not like life, Jason Cass, this has been, you know, he has only recently been accepted and this is a guy for a decade who is banging on the drum of change and digital and pushing forward and new business models. And he is only just recently started to be accepted in the mainstream.

Right. I mean, and they kicked him out twice. I mean, I've been blackballed from speaking events twice. I mean, I had a 18 month hiatus where literally no one would hire me to speak. And then another like six month hiatus and both times you got to come back and go, you know, Hey, I'll, I'll, you know, I'm good.

You know, the whole thing. And, um, you know, and then finally I realized that was probably the last time I was blackball was probably like 2015, 2016. And, um, you know, and then I did something that I hated myself for, um, you know, I kind of was like, Oh, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll be more thoughtful of the things that I say and do in the future. And then like a year later, I was just kind of like, why did I do that? Like, I kind of like hated myself for that because it didn't change my perspective, but I did dial back my perspective for a period of time.

And, um, I, it really, uh, it, it ended up being an informing thing. I disliked that I did that. And then when I kind of came to the realization of like, I don't need to kowtow to this position just because it fits a narrative that someone else thinks is the correct narrative. Um, you know, I, I, I stopped doing, I stopped dialing it back. And I said, I'm never doing that again.

And, you know, I'll do pirate radio for the rest of my life. If that's what it is, because, you know, I don't, I have sponsors of the show. I only take sponsors who believe in independent agents, who believe in the, in the, the, the movement forward. And as soon as anyone starts acting in a way that isn't in the best interest of the industry as a whole, that starts, um, grabbing onto the ideas that, that, that may made our industry so stagnant and stale and, and one sided, you know, 10 years ago, they're out the door. I don't, I don't need them.

And, uh, and, and, and I don't mean that just, I don't mean to speak so about me. Just the idea is that I think we need more people. And there are like you, hopefully like me, like Cass, like Marty, who, and there's many others that are, that are kind of starting to bubble up that, um, that just speak about what's happening and we can, we don't have to agree to get along, I guess. Yeah, for sure. And I, I, I know your point about, uh, sponsorships because so when Avi came on board, so obviously my, my experience is insurance, obvious experience is advertising and marketing.

And he said, well, how, how are we going to roll? And, uh, I said, well, we're just going to roll. Uh, and, uh, you have to stick to what you believe in and always dial up the positive, right? Um, people at the end of the day want to hear our different opinions. That's really why they come to Comferger.

They come for the opinion. And even though people will say, well, I disagree with you. And I said, okay, good. Um, what do you disagree about? I don't always hear that follow-up, uh, request, a sentence, but I think, um, we're not, we're not here to all of us to think alike, right?

And I think that I say this from a, from a humble, uh, standpoint, even though I know at Comferger, we, we see details in and out all the time. And we, we, you know, we cover our bases. We talk to employees. We talk to ex employees. Um, we read, we read so much, we read the fine print.

We read what consumers have to say. And yet I'm still going to say nothing is easy in this world. Like super, everything is super competitive. It's not what it used to be. It's not how our, um, father or grandfather made money.

No, people have options. We need to be no, you have to stand apart. You have to stand for something too. And insurance is such a difficult business. It's complex, right?

You sell a product, but then you make money on investment. Then it's not quite really, it's not, you know, people talk about focusing about on the customer. I hear that all the time. Start with the customer. And meanwhile, like you're, you've got this indifferent consumer that will shop every six months.

So not every, every customer should be treated equally or look, you know, or regarded equally. And I, I think you should just start with a product because there are so many products and the devil is in the details or God is in the details, whatever, um, whatever, uh, train of thought you want to adopt. I like God is in the details. I, yeah, I know. I, I like that.

I like that phrase too. I think, um, you know, uh, uh, um, a buddy, I don't know if you know him or not, but a buddy of mine, he, he runs advisory evolved. His name's Chris Langell. He, uh, he was an agent and saw a need in the website industry, not just for like new pretty pictures, but for people's websites to actually be tools for agencies. And, and advisory evolved, they are a sponsor of this show, but I would support them even if they weren't.

Um, I watched this kid go from hawking home and autos to running, you know, just a wonderful business and doing really good work for agents. So I, I support him wholeheartedly. But, uh, uh, he said the other day on Twitter, we don't sell insurance to sell insurance period. And I think that can mean a lot of different things for people, but I also believe that it is absolutely true. And, um, I think it comes back to what you're saying is that if you're gonna, if you're gonna be all about the client, then you need to be all about the client and, and, and everything that that means, right.

Not just selling the next person, whatever gets them in the door, because then really you're not all about the client. You're just saying that because you think it sounds good. If you're going to be all about the product and you really have to invest in your product and make it differentiated and make it interesting. And look, look at, look at lemonade, right? I mean, they have made it all about the product, even though the products like whatever, I mean, it's, it's nothing special, but they've been so focused on the product, so focused on the product, so focused on the product that they've, they got an IPO that, you know, some computer bots somewhere is telling people is worth $75 a share, which, you know, for a company that doesn't make money and I can't understand how that's an actual evaluation, um, when they sell policies that net $17, um, in actual revenue.

But, uh, you know, I, I think it there, they are a case. I mean, we talked a little bit about this, um, for those that are, Chevy and I had this wonderful, like hour, hour and a half long phone call, like a couple of weeks ago. And, um, I thoroughly enjoyed it, uh, but I wouldn't share it with you guys because you haven't earned listening to that part of the conversation yet. So, um, but you know, That's a good way to put it. Yeah.

I, uh, I, I just think I, I, I guess what I'm saying to you is I, I think too often we're only playing lip service to the thing that we actually want our business to be. We're, we're, you know, be a thing, whatever that thing is going to be, but actually be it. Don't just talk about it because in just talking about it. And I guess we're all guilty to this at certain times. So I'm not trying to say like, I'm above this because.

You know, I make fucking mistakes every day. Um, and I love chasing rabbits down holes that add zero value to my life or to anybody. But I do think that is the key and you have to be differentiated and you have to be better. And it only comes from being that focused on the thing. So I will share another story with you, and this is tied to what you're talking about.

There is an agent called Ed Gilman, I believe from, uh, Georgia. And I met him once or twice. And I, back when I was working at CNA, I didn't start blogging at the time. And he said two things, two and a half things that are still in my mind and got me really to, to blog because I was concerned. Like, do I have something smart to say?

Is like the first question. Right. And he said that the, um, the average in the industry is really low. That agents are not marketers. And, and he also made a comment that I'm not going to, I'm not going to use his words exactly.

But what he meant was people are satisfied with very little kind of incremental growth. And that's the most Bush league podcasting move ever. I just allowed my phone to ring while we're on. So I apologize. Oh, come on.

It's just like informal conversation. Hi everybody. Bye everybody. So, and, and I think that's, this is, um, you know, obviously agents can't be all that great at marketers because of, uh, in marketing, one is because of budget. Two is because they're marketing other people's product, right?

You're always in the middle. Lemonade wasn't in the middle. So that was, they were able to do more, obviously a lot more cash to begin with. There is, there is an element of, uh, people are just satisfied with the status quo. We know that I, I won't say that insurers don't innovate.

I, you, you will never hear me say that because we cover change all the time. And there are always things that carriers are doing and maybe people will then say, okay, the other argument I get, well, they're not innovating fast enough. Again, our customer is indifferent. So are they expecting, um, that innovation to occur? And what does that look like?

Because we have seen cases in where, um, you know, you go a certain technology route one way or the other, and it doesn't really pan out and it's still costly. And again, it's the whole, uh, insurance and we've got an issue with margins here, right? Yeah, telematics, the best idea that doesn't produce positive results. I actually, uh, you know, I'm, I'm not, um, bullish on telematics home or auto. Uh, but you know, I'll just put it at that.

That's very good. I do think, well, I do think home telematics in terms of water sensors and some of that stuff can have a long tail impact, but the tail is very, very long. And I don't know that customers stay with a particular home carrier long enough for that long tail to pay off. Auto telematics to me are a boondoggle. I think anybody that cares about their home can have that a few hundred tens or hundreds of dollars to get the sensors that they need and keep the carrier outside of that equation, especially when for the carrier, everything he's left with till to your point till he actually understands whether there's actual claim mitigation that he's enjoying is that element of engagement.

And I think engagement is an overused word, just like a bit community. We hear community, we hear engagement a lot around insurance, really hard to do. You can aspire to do that, but I wouldn't bet all my money on it. So point is, agents are stuck in the middle. Nobody ever wants to be stuck in the middle.

So sometimes they are squeezed from other carriers. And then the question is, what carriers they have in the mix? And are these carriers true partners? And everybody's going to respond to that differently. There's an element of competition and collaboration and competition.

And just, as I said, that the space is so, everything is so competitive nowadays that it's nothing is an easy answer. And if it is, someone didn't do the homework. So I have a couple of thoughts there. So one of the things that has been the most eye opening to me now that I'm an agency owner. So I didn't even, I didn't see this when I was just an agent.

I heard about it in my agency nation, bold penguin days, and I could empathize, but never experienced it firsthand. Now that I'm the one signing the carrier contracts, I'm the one connecting marketing reps, underwriters, internal staff, claim staff, service staff at agencies and having those conversations. There is such a clear delineation between the carriers that are manufacturers of a product, right? You, you want to hold our product line, purchase X amount of it, put it in your store, sell it. If it goes great, if it doesn't, who cares, right?

I mean, to them, that's the way they operate. And then there are the carriers who come into your store. They put a pop up, they give you one of those, uh, wiggly worm things that, that goes outside your building like this. They, you know, they're giving you dollars to do commercials on TV. They're helping you talk about their product and giving you talking points.

They'll walk in, they'll go into the customer's house and do case studies with you. Those don't, both of those things exist, the full spectrum. And I'll give a case in point because I think these things need to be highlighted. Cincinnati insurance. If there are, there are aspects of that company that if you were to say, are they cutting edge?

People would go, no, they're not right. They don't have a bot product that you can rate on Tarmica or SEMC or whatever. They don't even have a bot portal that you can go into. I still send them accord forms for everything that gets quoted. I prefer the accord forms.

So outside of the bot business that fits a tool like Tarmica, which I absolutely believe in, we talked a little bit about that. I believe this small commercial rating space is huge and can be very profitable. Beyond the accounts that fit those products, which that tool is very, um, uh, does provide a huge benefit for going into all these raiders and punching information in is a nightmare. It's a nightmare. Like I hate it when I can just put an accord form together and ship it off to them.

And in two days I get a quote back and then I can talk to the underwriter and go, Hey, you know, I think we could get this account. If we could put like a 2%, um, IRPM credit on it because the management's been in business for 10 years and they're wonderful and they take care of their and all, and they're like listening and going, okay, yeah, I think we can do that here. And you know, we'll adjust. So yeah. Is it, is it this slick, you know, does it have APIs and, you know, asynchronous load?

I mean, all these stupid terms that you hear all these, um, technologists use all the time. Um, no, they have none of that stuff. Do you know what? I write like 80% of the accounts that I quote with them. My clients are incredibly happy.

I'm incredibly happy. Their customer care center is probably the best customer care center. If not, it's in the top three in the entire country. I literally have someone that when I, I get a customer, a service request, I forward it to her like she's sitting right behind me and she takes care of everything, everything, everything that could possibly happen. She takes care of all of it for like she's sitting right here.

Just like I had hired her. It is seamless. It's amazing. And nothing about it is overly technology forward, but it is still a best in class, um, relationship and product delivery to the customer. The customers don't care that I didn't quote it through some fancy freaking HTML five portal.

They don't care about that. They don't care that they're, I'm not geo synced into a Slack channel with automatic pings and text automations on the service center. Clients could give two shits about that. You know what they care about when they forward me a certificate request. An hour later, a certificate shows up in their inbox.

That's what they care about. And I worry that, and I actually told this with them because I had a call with them yesterday. I said, please don't change. Please, please don't chase the technology rabbit too far. Like, yeah, there's some things that you can upgrade.

And I'm positive that there are some improvements that you can make, but you have some core things that other carriers have lost and can't get back. They they've gone too far down the technology rabbit hole. They can't get back to where you are. So please don't lose this. Like, please, please don't read the headlines.

Don't go to like, stay who you are because I love you just the way you are. And I worry that all of a sudden there's going to be these machines. And I just don't want that. So the question is, how many Ryan Henleys can Cincinnati insurance get? And that's and that's really the challenge.

I think you are absolutely right. The client doesn't care. I mean, for them, you're doing the work for them. Give them the certificate of insurance. It's not necessarily about 60 minute quote and bind.

It's not going to be like that for every single product. But with Cincinnati insurance, obviously, you have some say in their premium and the coverage. So it's relevant to a lot of your a lot of your customers. Right. And that's why I say start with the product because we like and we disagree on the Tarmica model.

Right. Because I came from this world and I didn't see it being adopted, especially when you're looking for scale and you're you're pushing towards apple to apple. You've said two keywords those products and the whole issue with small business is that it's fragmented business and we wanted to give people the sense that you can actually compare. And even with coverage, you know, we thought we were a perfect fit for somebody like his cox. We also tried next and we ended up shopping through cover wallet.

There was an awesome agent there that was willing to pay attention to our media coverage needs, which was wasn't something that we were qualified or capable of doing ourselves online. And we went to an independent agent before that and it, you know, they gave me the feeling that the amount of premium they're going to make on me wasn't worth their time. And I understand that it's just it's a really bad place to be in because I can't influence that at the moment. I can't create more insurance needs than I already have. I already questioned my need for cyber liability insurance, but okay, fine.

Neither Avi and I are, you know, going on our account balance and say like deduce, deduce. That's not our mindset. That's not how we roll with coverage. But small business has big problems because it's all over the place. And sometimes when you're too focused, then there isn't a lot of scale.

And when you want to expand, then you're dealing with different kind of risk. And that's a challenge. And that's the beauty of the space. I wouldn't necessarily tell Cincinnati insurance, change everything, not having a portal though. Come on, you need a portal.

Well, they have a, they just don't have a, you don't stick all the underwriting information into a thing and it pushes back a number. So yeah, if the product is good and obviously you're, you're, you're going back for the product and for the service and to, to the end user, they don't see that because that's the service you provide. And that's why you're still relevant. You're still in the game. So it's all a matter of how much of a, how much of a commodity product are you selling?

Lemonade renters insurance, absolutely commodity product. But if there are nuances because it's small business and small business still needs silly to your point, we need media coverage or, you know, different kinds of legal coverage, you know, DNO, sometimes these are relevant coverages, even when you are a five people shop. And sometimes the end user doesn't understand that. Yeah. I just, I think about how short sighted a decision it is for someone to look at your account and say, that's too small.

And I know agents do it all the time. I wrote one the other day, the guy was, I mean, I mean, I mean, 60, I mean, literally, I've talked about this in the podcast before. I made 60 bucks on this account and I don't care. You know why? Because I have someone out in the world who thinks that rogue risk is a problem solver.

And someday that guy's going to tell somebody and they might own a freaking manufacturing plant. That's a hundred thousand dollars in premium because to the average person, they don't care. It doesn't mean anything to them, right? They're just like, oh, this is my buddy. He owns a business too.

You know, it doesn't matter to him that his business is a small art studio and his buddy's business is a $50 million manufacturing shop. That's just his buddy who owns a business. And I look at, I look at that and I know, I know this is what agents do is they, because I heard it when I was with one of the, you know, I, with trustedchoice.com, one of the things that they did do very well was the recording of the phone calls. And we listened to a lot of the phone calls. I mean, I've listened to thousands of agents take phone calls from clients and the amount of agents that do revenue triage is in my mind, horrifying.

It's horrifying because you're, you're literally saying you're not worth my time, which I get from a straight dollars and cents mentality. I get that. Like, if you're stacking up the ones and zeros, talking to this person doesn't make time. It doesn't make sense. It's why I disagree with you on Tarmica.

Cause I feel like you take that person's information. You shove it in there. You get a quote. You can turn it around and quote and bind in 20 minutes. And now it becomes, it becomes profitable, but you're that you don't know who that person knows.

If you think about it, just one level deeper, what about their personal stuff? What about all the referrals they can send you? What about the positive Google review you can get on and on? And I mean, you just go a few and now all of a sudden that person is incredibly, you know, revenue wise that moment that they, did they buy you your yacht? No, they did not.

But they just stacked up four or five really incredible pieces of value. Now, the other side of it is, you know, most people just don't think that way, but it's there. The opportunity is there for those who are willing to think just a few more layers deep. I believe it. It's a tough business.

Don't get me wrong. Small business is a tough business, but I do believe that it's there for the taking for the organizations who want to engage with it and set their business up properly to serve it. This goes back to what I was trying to say in terms of having the mindset of we're satisfied with how we're growing versus your mindset. I'm doing business. I'm hungry.

I want to get every customer. I want to give service. And I just, I want to grow. Right. And it's not just looking at how many dollars can I generate to that agency at the end of the year.

And still to this point though, I, you know, we were currently doing a survey for commercial insurance agents and a lot of the responses are still, you know, we're growing through referrals and word of mouth. So I do think, you know, it's coverage or we cover change. That's what I like. I look at it at like really little things and a new website and a landing page and a logo, new, new management, whatever it is, small changes. But sometimes not everybody's feeling the change or all at once or depending on the line of business.

Right. And so for a lot of, for still for a lot of agents, they're still doing business how they used to do it. And eventually it's going to stop. Yeah. Sheffy, you realize that we do most of our business through referrals as code for, I don't have a fucking clue where my business is coming from.

You know, I once we had an agency council at CNA and I was responsible for the digital session. And I asked, so how do you get your customers? And they, they said referral. And I said, when, when they pick up, when you, when you have a conversation with them, do you ask, how did you learn about us? And most of them said, no.

And I thought, well, that's, don't you just want to have a conversation? I ask people about coverager all the time because a coverager is word of mouth, you know? I mean, we don't advertise, uh, at other media companies to say, subscribe to the newsletter. We don't believe in that, but I, and I still like to ask, how did you hear about us? And see what their response is.

Somebody forwarded it, or it was a conference back when there was a conference, but most of the time it was somebody forwarded the email or you wrote this piece of content. Right. So, well, I, uh, I want to be respectful of your time. We've just put an hour on the books. It went by in a snap.

Uh, I just, I, I appreciate your opinion. I, I, uh, I love that you are out there that you're doing this work because I think it's very important. I think your opinion is important. I think your perspective is important. And, um, you know, I also really appreciate that you're someone that I can disagree with and have a wonderful conversation about that disagreement.

That is, um, uh, smart and that you don't take your perspective too seriously, because I think that's what gives it power is that you, you have a perspective. It's an educated and learned perspective. Um, but at the same time, uh, you're not, you're not, you're not taking other people down to make your perspective validated. Um, and I think that is a testament to you and to Avi and to your organization. And, uh, I would just encourage everyone who is listening.

If you're not subscribed to cover your, and you're not following, uh, Sheffy on LinkedIn, absolutely do both those things. As soon as you are done listening to this podcast. Thank you so much. Everything you said, it goes right back at you. I think we're, we're playing in the same space in terms of, uh, creating content and serving kind of the same purpose.

I think we, there's an opportunity to move people forward. I really believe that content is king. Um, if the kingdom is interested, but that's the thing we're in the business. So we know what interests them because, uh, we get to see the behind the scenes of what they click and what they like and what they comment on. So thank you so much for having me.

We should, I told you we shouldn't be strangers. And I know everybody has, you know, you have your, your startup to work on and cover your and you know, time, it always comes back to time, but let's not be strangers. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Thanks, Ryan.

Hey guys, how good was that episode with Sheffy? I just, I love her. I think she does a tremendous job. I have so much respect for her. And I hope that if you aren't subscribed to coverger that you're gonna, as soon as this episode is over, you're gonna go subscribe to coverger, which is free, right?

You just pop your email in and you get the emails, right? It's that that's, we're not talking about like investing money. Just be part of the ecosystem. Learn what Sheffy and her brother Avi have to say. You're going to be happy that you did.

What I want to tell you right now is we have three additional sponsorship slots. If you are a company looking to get in front of independent agents, looking to get in front of independent carriers, if you want to get your message out into the world, we have three slots open for sponsorships for this show. And if you want one of those slots, just email me. Ryan at RyanHanley.com. Ryan at RyanHanley.com.

Email me. Let me know what your business is about and we can talk about sponsorship. One caveat to this is I, this show supports the independent agency channel and supports it in a very discerning way. And for that reason, if you are not in support of the independent agency channel, then this is not the right show. Just, just, and you can still reach out.

That's cool. I'm not hating or whatever, just because everyone's got their thing. This isn't, that's not the only sponsors I will allow on this show. However, are, are organizations that support the independent agency channel and are in it to win it for the long term. So if you think your company fits that, if you want to get in front of the largest audience in the insurance podcast space, you write, you heard that, then Ryan at RyanHanley.com and we'll get you hooked up.

All right, let's get on to the outro music, which is The Balls. Let's get on to the outro music, which is The Balls. Let's get on to the outro music, which is The Balls. Let's get on to the outro music, which is The Balls. Let's get on to the outro music, which is The Balls.

Let's get on to the outro music, which is The Balls. Let's get on to the outro music, which is The Balls. Let's get on to the outro music, which is The Balls. Let's get on to the outro music, which is The Balls. Let's get on to the outro music, which is The Balls.

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It's not. With the one-call-close system, you'll stop chasing leads and start closing deals in one call. This is the exact method we use to close 1,200 clients in under three years during the pandemic. No fluff, no endless follow-ups, just results fast. Based in behavioral psychology and battle-tested, the one-call-close system eliminates excuses and gets the prospect saying yes more than you ever thought possible.

If you're ready to stop losing opportunities and start winning, visit masteroftheclose.com. That's masteroftheclose.com. Do it today. Happy holidays! Want to give your host a gift?

Consider subscribing, rating, and reviewing the show this holiday season. It really helps the show grow. From all of us at Believe, have a merry Christmas, everyone, and a happy holiday. If you like the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow.

Thank you for listening. Thank you for listening.