The Danger of Outsourcing Your Thinking to AI | Ryan Hawk

They're outsourcing who they actually are and their thinking to something else. I want you to get better at thinking through these hard problems instead of outsourcing that thinking. What is it that Ryan Hawk does that looks like cheating to me? The way that I give and receive love is curiosity. This idea of going to bed a little bit wiser than you were when you woke up.

I think it is a daily fistfight to suffocate excuses. Any excuse softens the character. I mean, there is nothing more intoxicating as a leader than someone who's coachable. Ryan, dude, I know you're a busy man. I am incredibly excited to have you on the show.

I was gonna save this, but you brought it up in the-- we, I asked you the question, you answered in the green room, and it's actually very hot on my brain, so I'm gonna be incredibly selfish at the start of this podcast. Um, you said one of the things that you're curious about is this idea of outsourcing your thinking, outsourcing your, your, your, your intelligence to AI and, you know, I, I wanna dig into this topic. I think this is, this is one of the topics of our day, and you're someone who talks to a lot of incredibly smart people, a lot of incredibly, uh, uh, uh, growth-driven, well-run organizations, leaders, I mean, leaders at the top of their lane- game. So how are the people in your circle, the people that you're having conversations with every day, how are they starting to address this topic? Because I have some opinions that I wanna run past you, but I wanna k- I want you to kinda level set this for us.

Yeah. Well, I think the, uh, it, it's hard to know how everybody's using it, but I think what my concerns are from a leadership perspective, what I'm seeing, are people outsourcing their thinking, their creative output, um, to AI. I, I think it's important to understand how to best utilize the technology for you, not act like it doesn't exist or try to be the old-timer who said, "Back in my day," like none of that nonsense either. But if you completely outsource your creative output to say, "Hey, can you write, uh, an email to my team for me?" That's a big mistake.

Uh, how about you have it be a research assistant for you or potentially edit some things for you, but to flat out outsource thinking, your thinking, uh, a lot of studies have come out recently about how your brain will literally atrophy. It will be just like if you lift weights or stop lifting weights, um, how that could, that could hurt you, uh, hurt your brain. And so, yeah, I think it's important. When I work with leaders, I always try to, uh, we talk about their actual writing practice, getting the messy thoughts out of your head onto the page, and if you shortchange that process, if you don't do it, um, I, I think that you're, you're hurting yourself of long term. In the short term, yes, it can be helpful to get answers, to fire back something quickly, but also people, when you look at the ones who are most effective over the long term, uh, we follow others because we authentically know them and are, are spired by, inspired by them and want to get in line behind them.

And if they're outsourcing who they actually are and their thinking to something else, that's, you're less authentically you, and that's, then I think you're gonna have less of an opportunity for people to wanna follow you and get in line. So anyway, I think it's very nuanced. I don't think it's a this or that or use it or not. Like most things in life, it's not binary. It's, "Hey, it's a little bit of gray.

Let's figure out the best way to utilize technology without outsourcing our thinking." What do you think, though? So I posted, actually this morning, I was out for my walk. I go for a, a forty-pound ruck walk. Uh, I wear the vest, not the thing on your back.

I just- Yeah ... found that puts a little too much strain on my lower back, but I love the weighted walks. And I, you know, I was just, um, I shouldn't do this, but I popped open my phone while I was walking. I was like halfway through my walk, and my mind started to wander. I popped my phone, and the very first thing I see on top is some marketing guru or influencer. To be honest with you, I, I, I didn't even recognize the person's name even though I'm connected to them, and they were hammering AI slop.

So I, I just popped open my phone, I pulled my phone up, and I did this video, and I posted it on LinkedIn, and it was essentially, I think the people who are AI slop shaming, and I, this is not what I think you are doing, but I think the people right now who are out on the internet AI slop shaming are the ones who are gonna lose or are trying to sell you something. And the reason I think that is, like all things, don't we have to kinda be crappy at the thing first before we get good at it, right? Like if you're using AI to help you create emails, your first few times you use it, it's maybe gonna sound a little more clunky or a little more like that, you know, not X, Y, you know, it's, it's not X, it's Y. You know, all these kinda standard patterns that AI falls into, you know, as you kinda maybe fill in some of the gaps around a premise of an email and, like, it, it's, the AI itself is a little just sloppy right now, and don't we have to work through that period, right, to get to a period where you can mix your intelligence, your thought, your novel ideas with the horsepower of research and articulation that AI can provide? First of all, I like that you, that first point is so true, and I hadn't thought of it that way, so I appreciate you sharing that.

I think that makes a lot of sense that most things when they're newer are kind of a mess, and it takes time to get through the growing pains, and I think some of that's happening. With that said, if people are, the, if they're, I feel like you're the type of guy who'd be willing to work through the mess and get to the other side where then you're also using the best of your brain and your ability to think and your ability to utilize technology the right way and use the tool and combine them the right way. Whereas some of the fear is that leaders completely outsource parts of their job and never go back to trying to work that muscle. Specifically, I think when it comes to writing in your own voice, getting the messy thoughts out of your head onto the blank page. That thing, that process, that's just all...

It's why I write books. It's done it four times, first and foremost for me, for me to get clear on what I think about this specific topic of whatever that project is about. And, uh, I think if you shortchange that or you don't go through the rigor of what it takes to get to the other side of the, the messiness of the thinking and, "Oh, what do I actually think about this?" I think that's, that's the, the potential issues that I think you see out there. But yes, the, the AI slob shaming, you know, we've probably all done it a little bit, uh, or maybe you haven't, but, but I, I've not publicly done that.

But if I see a friend post something where it's obvious they didn't write it, I'll be like, "Dude-" Yeah "... just make sure you're not, make sure you're not just like this is all you're gonna do moving forward. We know you didn't write that." Like, I want you to actually- It's got 17 em dashes in it. Yeah, yeah, of course. It's not this, it's that, speaking in threes, em dashes, all this stuff.

If, if that's what you're gonna do all the time, I think we're all gonna know, and maybe the tools will get better, but it's, I don't even care about how good the tools get. I want you to get better at thinking through these hard problems instead of outsourcing that thinking. So that's, that's the main thing I want for leaders is to make sure that you're still working that muscle of figuring out and working through hard problems so that, uh, that muscle doesn't atrophy. Yeah, and I love that, and I think that's the way the feedback should come, right? And my...

I think, you know, you should reach out to your buddy on the side and say, "Hey, man, like, not that I don't disagree with what you put, but there's like six sentences with em dashes," and like, you know, they... You know what I mean? Like, maybe next time, like take a run through it once, you know what I mean? Like, on the side, yeah, 100%, because we need that feedback to get better. But I just, I, I worry that there's so much AI doomerism out there right now that people are going to either take what feels comfortable, which is just not engage and keep doing what they've always doing, which I think is an absolute path to destruction, or, um, they're gonna play it super safe and never really learn the nuances of these tools.

Because if you're willing to dive deeper into them, the possibilities are absolutely endless. And one comment that I have on, on what you said is, uh, I think the people, or I believe that the people who are journaling or who have always been, uh, writing or have a, like, you know, note-taking process, whether that's voice to notes or they, you know, write themselves little Apple notes on the side or whatever. The people who, who have always been thinking for themselves, like before AI, they are going to continue thinking for themselves as they move forward because it's part of who they am, or part of who they are. I, I think, like, there's an AI Darwinism to the leaders who have been able to skate by on other people's ideas that now I think, unfortunately, this tool does not amplify well those who do not have their own novel ideas. If you have a novel idea, this, this technology can take that idea, turn it into an, an app, a book, a course, an entire career, right?

And, and do it yourself. But- Love that ... a non-novel idea is gonna suck no matter if AI is associated or not, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. When, when you, I-- My curiosity is getting the best of me. So when you, when you write that you built and sold an AI insurance company before anyone called it that, by the way, great line.

Uh, what, what does that mean? So I built a, a digital-first, uh, native commercial insurance brokerage that was national. So we basically did everything through outsourcing and automation, um, and some analog processes that now would've been immediately replicated with AI, because what I, what I coach in my own practice is what I call a human-optimized business model. So, and I'll tell you, this came out, and, uh, you're asking questions, I'll answer it, right? Um, I found this stat in 2015.

Uh, so my home industry is the property casualty insurance industry. Um, this stat that the average customer service rep at an independent insurance agency spends 20 minutes from the time they are notified from a process to the, or, uh, a task to the time that task is completed, okay? And some are longer, some are shorter, but that's the average. Of that 20 minutes, five of those minutes are spent interacting with the customer, and 15 of those minutes are actually all the nonsense that it takes to execute that task, okay? And the goal of that agency was to flip that on its head because, 'cause if I could spend 15 minutes with my customers interacting with them, now I can better understand them, I can cross-sell them, I can upsell them, I can retain them.

I can, you know, make sure they feel heard, uh, heard when they have problems. And then I used, you know, at that time, outsourcing and automation because AI didn't really exist, um, to, to, to kinda turn, uh, reduce their transactional time cost. So today I think, you know, I ended up growing it so f- we were the fastest-growing s- uh, small business insurance agency in the country in 2021, which ultimately for reasons that are not worth explaining without beers in our hand, uh, I sold in 2022, and then I watched that company, um, knife my baby to death like all PE companies do, and, uh, I exited at my first trigger in 2024. So, um, you know, we still did all right. It was still a, a wonderful experience.

Um, but, uh, that's kinda what we did is like I look at that business and I'm like, that business launched in 2025 is an absolute monster rocket ship because we were literally built where our humans only did human things- Build relationships, solve problems, sell stuff. Everything else I took off their t- their plate, and, uh, the results were bananas. Wow. So are you doing it again? Like- Now I coach it.

Yeah. Oh, okay. Cool, cool. Yeah. So what's the, what's, what's easy mode?

So easy mode is the commercialized version of a human optimized business model, 'cause that's really shitty to say. Wait, say that again? So the, what I called it back when I was building it, like what I wrote down on the piece of paper when I was mapping out the business plan, was a human optimized business model. That's what I wrote down. That's a mouthful.

So the commercialized version of that is what I call easy mode. So easy mode is what is it that Ryan Hawk does that looks like cheating to me? That when you do it, I'm like, "Oh my God, he's freaking cheating, man. Like how did... He's got the cheat code for that thing."

That's your, that's where you fall in building relationships, solving problems, and selling stuff. There's s- in one of those three tasks is your easy mode. That could be speaking, it could be writing books, it could be doing podcasts, it could be understanding the, uh, psychological principles that hold leaders back from being the best version of themselves. There's something that you do, right, that uniquely the human version of you does, that to me looks like cheating. That's your easy mode.

Doesn't mean it's easy work. Yeah. Could be incredibly difficult, right? But for you, it's your easy mode. So easy mode was kinda the easier commercialized packaged version of this human optimized business model.

I like it. Interesting. Okay. I think the cool, the good, the good thing about it is it's really piqued my curiosity, and as you know, that's a, you do that, you kinda got 'em. You, you, you, you got 'em.

Like let's, okay, well what's next? What's next, you know? Yeah. What, what, what can I do next, you know? That, that, I, I like that.

Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. It's, um, but I think it all comes back to like what you talk about. Like I, and I really wanna get into these, the, you know, the, the book, um, 'cause I, I love where, like I love the way you think about these things and, and what I was really taken by your work, and you've used the word twice so far, and I think it is clear in the way that you present online, is curious. And I, so kind of taking this maybe a little more into just more of your work and your expertise and, and if it ties to the book, that's amazing.

But, like why is curiosity so important to you specifically that in the first, you know, what have we been talking for a little over 10 minutes, you've used the term twice. Like why is that such a, a important part of how you operate? Have you done the love languages assessment by chance? I have not done the love languages. Okay.

But you, you know- I know what mine is, but I haven't done the assessment. You, but you, you know what it is, right? We all know what the love languages, like assessment or love language tools are. So the way that I give and receive love is curiosity. Um, my wife knows this, uh, my friends know this, the people in my life.

Um, I think it's the ultimate act of respect and love is to be curious about a person, their story, where they come from, what they're all about. Um, it's not something I have to consciously think about, it's just the way, uh, I show up in the world because I'm genuinely interested in people and what they're all about. So it's not even a thought, it just happens. Um, I've found it, it creates amazing opportunities. Uh, it creates amazing relationships with people, and the entire world is built through people.

Everything you wanna do happens through and with people. So, um, if you wanna do anything interesting in life, it's probably gonna come through and with people. Um, being curious, showing them love, caring about them is a great way to build a good relationship, and those relationships then lead to cool experiences. So, um, yeah, I, I, I think it's the, it's just the ultimate way to show love, it's the ultimate way to learn, it's the ultimate way to live. Uh, Brian Koppelman told me many years ago when I went to New York to record with him, "Hey man, chase down your curiosity and obsessions with great rigor.

I like that. I li- I s- I like what I'm seeing here. If you keep doing that, good things are gonna happen." I've never forgotten when he, when he looked me dead in the eye and said that to me, and I'm like, "All right, I'm just gonna keep chasing down what I'm curious about and with great rigor." It's like a great, great turn of phrase.

I mean, coming from him- Yeah, yeah ... you gotta listen to him, right? I mean, that's not the kinda guy that you discount his advice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I, um, I don't know. I, I, and so I think I've just tried to, try to live that way and when it, when I do, um, neat, neat things happen, good opportunities present themselves and, um, it's one of my, my core values and it's, yeah, uh, it's, it's some, it's a skill that I think I've developed and learned over time and wasn't, didn't really grow up that way, but a- am that way now and, uh, yeah, it's the type of people that I wanna be with are the ones who are curious about life, curious about people, curious about things and ideas.

And if somebody's like really into, I don't know, American history or the Civil War or whatever, and I, I, I w- I wanna hear them obsess about that. Like I wanna hear their obsessions coming out. Like to me, that's fascinating. Like even if it's a topic that I don't know that much about or I, even if I don't care that much about it, to me it's still fascinating to hear about somebody else's curiosity and obsessions. That's why I'm, uh, your, you piqued my curiosity with what is this insurance thing that's AI before it was called AI, or what in the hell is easy mode?

What does that mean? Now you hear hard mode. Yeah. Easy mode, what's this all about? So anyway, I, I, I, to me it's, it's like chasing down what you're curious about is just an interesting way to go through life.

I, I, I couldn't agree more. Um, it's probably one of the most frustrating parts of, uh, dating me, I've found. Is that I, I, you know what I mean? Like these poor women- Do you have a cur- are you in a relationship or no? Yeah.

The wo- the woman I've been, I'm with now, I've been with for almost, uh, a year, and it's actually going incredibly well. Uh, she's wonderful and, you know, but I had been divorced for four years. I mean, dude, like I was married for 15 years. I never expected to get divorced and, you know, not, details aside, you know, it wasn't like she did anything, I did anything. It was just kind of this thing where like She just didn't wanna be with me personally anymore.

She had other plans for what she wanted to do, and we're very good at the business of marriage, so no, no knock on my ex-wife. We actually, um, incredibly, as much as she drives me nuts, as all exes do, um, you know, we get along incredibly well, and she's a wonderful mother to my children. It's all good. That being said, I understand that because I am also incredibly curious, I also have incredibly severe ADHD, I am... I have to be so difficult to, to, to, like, be in a relationship. 'Cause, like, in one second I'll be talking about, you know, reading about the fact that they just found new chambers underneath the Sphinx, and oh my God, what does this mean?

And is that where the power plant on switch was? And blah, blah, blah, you know? And then in the next sentence I'm talking about, you know, some economics thing that I saw because some person who doesn't understand economics is talking about how you can't be a billionaire without cheating your way of getting there. You know what I mean? And it's just like this...

Because all these things just fascinate me. Like, the world fascinates me. So when I picked up on that from you, I was like... And, and just, like, seeing your stuff and watching a few of your shows, I was like, "Oh my God, I'm gonna love this conversation with this guy." So, like, how do you...

You said that you weren't always curious, um, or at least it wasn't maybe, like, a core thing that you had as part of your day-to-day life, and now it has become that. If someone's listening to this and they're going, "Man, I wish... I, I, I would like to have, I'd like to be a little more curious day to day," do you have any... Like, how do we cultivate curiosity? Is this a, is this a skill we can develop?

Is this, like, a, a system or a framework we can build a course around and sell to people? Like, how do we, how do you get more curiosity in your life? Uh, I think of the quote, "Read what you love until you love to read." Um, but apply that to all things in life, uh, not just about reading. Now, that helps with making you wanna be a reader because if you're...

So, you know, for y- your kids are what? 12 and 10, so you want them to be readers. We all want our kids to be readers, and so we're, uh, like I'll bu- you know, u- unlimited budget on books. Uh, library, buy them, whatever, um, because I don't care what they're reading, I just want them to love to read because I think it opens up their mind to be more cur- more curious, and it will create them to read more books. Um, so I think that, take that ethos and, and kind of apply it to everything.

Um, I also think of Barbara Jordan's quote from, uh, many years ago, the old co- congresswoman from Texas who, who, who said, um, "To be interesting, be interested." And, and so when you meet somebody, try to learn about their story, learn about where they're from, learn about what they're doing and why they're doing it. Um, it, it, it can lead you down so many paths that, of interesting conversations about other people. Like, you'll see it really benefits you to genuinely care and be into somebody else or be into a specific topic. It can make you more interesting, uh, because you are interested in other people as well as other things.

I did have a question for you though about, uh, what it's like dating you, because I've, I've heard this and I wonder if you get this too. Does it, especially for the woman you're with now, did it, did it feel like, um, you were interviewing her? Or you still interview her at times? I've been told this because if you start asking questions or too many questions, th- they'll say like, "Am I in an interview? Like, what's happening here?"

Do you ever get that? Ye- yes and no. Um, I, I have definitely... I, I'm gonna say something that the audience... Judge me, don't judge me.

I- if people listen to this show, they understand where I'm coming from. I have found that left-leaning women do not like to be interviewed, and women on the right want, will have absolutely no problem with it, and I don't know why. That is a broad stroke from a very small sample set. However, I have found that it, I found the... It, and I don't know if it's a general distrust, distrust of men or whatever, but it's kinda like after a few questions I start to get that, like, "Well, why are you, why are you so interested in me?"

Right. Like, "Why are you going so deep?" Where, you know, I find with, you know, s- women who tend to be a little more conservative leaning, it's just a natural conversation about getting to know each other and going deep, and they tend to be more willing to talk about their faith. They tend to be more willing to talk about their kids. They tend to be more willing to talk about those things.

And, and I'm not saying one is right or one is wrong, but it has absolutely been something that I've found. And, and maybe that's not a true factor. Maybe that's a causation isn't, or correlation doesn't equal causation, for sure. But, um, uh, and it also could just be that I am, in today's standards, uh, very obviously more conservative-minded and maybe they're just like, "I don't wanna be with this guy," right from the rip. So that could be it too.

I never thought of it that way. Do you think, don't you, do you think more people are not on the far ends of the spectrum, though? It feels like more people are kind of like, "Hey, I, yeah, I believe in this, this, and this, but I don't believe in this and this." And then sometimes they're like, "Wait, where does that put me on this line of the spectrum?" You know what I mean?

I, I found it seems like more and more, when you go out for, like, a speaking gig and you talk to a lot of people, and there's some that may be deemed this or some may be deemed that, but most people are closer towards the middle of things, more independent, wouldn't you say? Uh, for sure. And, um- Yeah ... remember I'm in New York. Um, you've kinda been programmed here to, to lean left. Um- Uh ... and, and I don't, honestly, I don't care.

To me, to me it, uh, literally my entire phila- the only reason that I even classify as, and I, the reason I say more conservative today because I, like, today's standards I lean conservative, but I, I don't, like, s- view myself that way. Like, I'm an American. Like, literally my values are, you know, my, my kids, my broader family, my God, my country, my friends. Like, those are the five things that I care about. I, I literally don't care about the other things.

However, one value that I have that I refuse to set aside is I live in reality So I cannot, I cannot abide methodologies that have no historical backing for success. Like, like, I got, one of my buddies always gives me crap because if you follow me on X, I rail, like, to an obnoxious extent against socialism and communism. I just think that this is the cancer of our day, and unfortunately, like, seemingly has to happen since this idea has been brought into existence. We're in a cycle where, once again, people are starting to believe, like, this philosophy works. It has killed more human beings than all diseases combined.

It's killed more human beings than all wars combined. Like, we're talking about hundreds of millions of humans that have died from one single philosophy, and with no results. Like, there's no country that you can point at and say, "They're doing well using this philosophy," yet we're supposed to believe that it has merit, okay? So I can't operate, I, my brain does not, can't hold an ideal that has no backing. And people go, "Well, you're a Christian, you believe in God."

I don't care if you believe in God, and I've had moments in my 45 years in which I have struggled with my connection with God where different things have happened. However, what I have always believed is that the Bible, including the Old Testament, so, so Judeo-Christian, uh, text, is the guidebook, the number one best self-improvement book that has ever been written. You do not have to believe that there's a God with sandals and a white dress sitting in the f- and, you know, sitting in the clouds looking down on us, like, pulling the strings, to read that book and the lessons inside it and not have your life get better. Like, it is the... So, so take God out of it if you need to.

I, I don't need you to believe in God. I do, but you don't need to. There's no context for our friendship or our relationship that you believe in God. However, you have to respect, at least in your relationship with me, that I believe it's the best self-improvement book that's ever been written. Yeah.

So that's kinda where my- I think- ... philosophy goes ... I, I think more, maybe it's based on what's around me, but I think more people believe with both of those things that you just said than, I think the overwhelming majority agree with both of those things. If you, if you live in reality, if you actually are curious, if you read, y- I, I think the majority of Americans, of humans, uh, yeah, they're on board with both, both of those things. But sometimes the mi- minority of people who, who at least claim they believe, whatever, if we're talking about socialism, communism, any of that, th- they're just loud, and they get amplified on certain social media platforms, or you see them maybe based on where you live, um, that it's like, it, it, "Do people really think this?" Like, are they really, are they really thinking this?

And, and, and, and I feel like the majority are n- do not. But yeah, if you're out in the dating world and maybe you see it on a date, it probably... What, what do you do? Like, have you gone on a date with somebody and that, and that comes up and you're like, "Oh my God. Do, should we just leave?"

Or, like, what happens? I actually, I went on a couple dates with this woman. Again, this is more than a year and a half ago now, 'cause I've been seeing the same woman for a long time, who is fantastic. Uh, if she's listening, you're fantastic. Um, so we go out.

She wants to g- uh, go hit golf balls, right? She's like, "Hey, let's go hit golf balls." Let's go. Great first date. Let's go.

Sounds awesome. So we go, uh, um, and we start talking, and like, she makes a comment about, uh, our governor, Kathy Hoch- uh, I, you don't know where it come from. Da, da, da, Kathy Hochul. Kathy Hochul is a leftist shill. She's completely vapid.

She hasn't had an original thought her entire life. I, and I can... You know what I mean? You just see it in the way her, she pattern breaks and just chases trends. I mean, literally she will turn on a dime, you know, if their money's there.

And, um, not that I have my own opinions on her or anything. But I just said, I just said, "Well, you know, that's not working." You know, 'cause, 'cause if you look at the numbers, New York, um, now officially is the number one net loser of both companies and, um, residents of any state. They've, they've now officially outpaced both- Really? Yeah, they've officially outpaced, uh, California and Illinois.

Uh, California was leading the charge. New York has taken over. So New York, and, is losing the most businesses and the most residents of any state in the country. Um, just in the last year we've lost 900 businesses with 80% of those going to North Carolina, Texas, and Florida. So, um, Corning, which was one of the largest companies in the entire state, just decided to change, putting a 4,000, um, 4,000-job extension to one of their plants south of Buffalo.

They literally this week just changed to North Carolina. They're gonna split it up between North Carolina and Texas because of the, uh, business environment in the state. So by that measure, she's not doing a very good job, right? Like, I, I don't, I mean, I don't know what other measures there are, but if everyone's leaving, it seems like probably not the best job. And so when I brought that stat up, it was like I had bent over and farted right in her face.

It was over from that point on. Game over. All right. Have a nice day. See you later.

Yeah, it was kinda like this, we awkwardly finished our bucket of balls, and then, like, it was this very weird, like, kinda like side shoulder hug thing, and then no, no, no, nothing else after that. Gotcha. Okay. I'm just curious. I, I haven't- No ... been, been in that world in a while, so I'm just- Yeah ... curious how it goes.

I know I'm sure there are good days and not as, not so good days, but it seems like you're good now. Bro, dating is the worst. It is the worst. I, you know, I just... And, and, and it's the worst for women too.

I, I don't mean that like it's one-sided. It's the worst for everybody. 'Cause what doesn't happen anymore is, like, you have somebody that you know that you think is great and, and you're like, "Hey, I got this buddy, you know, he's cool. Like, you guys should meet. Here's your phone." Like, that doesn't really happen anymore.

I mean, it does a little, and I'm sure everyone in the comments will be like, "I always refer to my whatever." It, that really doesn't happen that much anymore. Um- Like, mostly you have to go on the apps because even if you try to approach a woman, and I get this from them, like I... This is not an... If I was a woman, I would probably be like this too.

Like, out in public, they don't wanna be approached. They g- And even if they do, the general stance is very standoffish. It's very, you know, "I'm not here for you to come over and try to hit on me," kind of thing, right? Which I also, I completely understand. Like, women should be able to go out, go on their day, and not have to constantly be hit on by men.

Like, I'm not trying to knock that. So you have to use the apps. Well, the apps are brutal. Um, they're also optimized for you to not meet the perfect person, because if you meet the perfect person, you don't come back, right? So this is, this actually came out about a year or so ago, I saw this.

Um, it was right before I met the woman that I'm dating now, so maybe more than a year then. Was this, this story that came out that someone found that the algorithms are actually optimizing for people that are slightly off of what they think are a perfect... So it's a good date, but it's not the best date because then you come back again, which is like, oh my God, we can't trust anybody. But yeah, dude, it's just, like, this awkward, and then you have everybody, especially in your 40s, like, everybody's got baggage. You know what I mean?

Like, we all do. We all have kids or exes or this thing or this thing happened, and it's just, man, if you found your lifelong person in your 20s, God bless you. You have hit the lotto. Uh, hold onto that person for everything you have. Fight for the relationship if there's even an ounce of love there, because the gra- no matter what your buddies tell you or what social media looks like, the grass is not greener.

I feel like I may have gotten lucky, um, in the woman that I'm seeing now, but dude, it was four-plus years of, like, you know, you go on a couple dates, then it falls apart, then you never hear from the person, or you start to get to know them, and all of a sudden you realize they've been... I learned this term called love bombing. I had no idea what this was. And I dated this woman for, like, six months, and for the first, like, four months, I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm gonna marry this woman." Like, she's amazing.

Like, we get along so great. We love the same things. She's into fitness. She's into business. Like, this is awesome.

And then literally at the four-month mark, like, this switch flipped, and all of a sudden it was like, who is this person? Uh, a couple of them, my, I coach baseball and, and I, she had come to a couple of the baseball games for my son to watch, and, um, which was probably a mistake. It was probably a little early. But, uh, and all the moms are like, "Oh, yeah, she was love bombing you. We thought you knew."

And I'm like, "How would I know what love bombing is?" So this is where y- and men and women do this, again, not just women, where essentially you just act like the person is God's gift to the Earth, right? Everything is amazing. Everything they say is amazing. Everything's amazing.

But you're, so you're not really showing who you are to try to suck them in, and then once you get them on the hook, you start showing them your real personality, hoping at that point you've got them far enough along the path that they don't leave you. That's some messed-up psychological stuff that you gotta deal with, dude. Dude, I don't know about that. That sounds wild. Oh, my God.

That sounds wild. It's wild. I could do, I could do hours on the dating scene. Um, I mean, we're, I'm here to talk about you. Sorry.

Um- Okay. Oh, my God. So let's just say using dating apps is not one of the compounding practices to high performance. Let's just say, let's just say- Got you. Gotcha.

Okay. Okay. I've never... Yeah, I've, I was bef- now I, I never had a, had, had the opportunity. I, I guess I'm glad that I, that I don't.

No, dude, it's, I... Be glad. Be glad. Yeah. Yeah.

I, um, you know, if you're with someone you don't like and, and it's not working, um, even though I am a Catholic, I do think divorce is a healthy option in many, in some situations. You know, if you're not running towards it, if you're working at it and it just doesn't work, I think that it can be a very healthy option for everybody. Um, I do think your kids can be fine if you do it the right way, if you communicate with them, you know, that kind of stuff. Um, but the grass is, the, the grass isn't necessarily greener. It could be, but it's not this, like, you're running around, like...

My buddies would be like, "Oh, how come you're not just out there, like, dating 25-year-olds?" I'm like, " 'Cause I'm 44, and I don't wanna date a 25-year-old 'cause I have literally nothing to talk to that human about." Like, I want someone who understands the stuff that I'm dealing with. You know what I mean? Like, having kids and work and, you know, aches and pains in your knees when you wake up 'cause you played college sports.

You know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean? Like, you know? Like, why do I have to take two aspirin every... No, I'm, it's just, uh, I don't know.

It's a wild world. But, uh, getting this podcast back on track, um, most recent book, The Price of Becoming, right? Like, one, what, uh, I just... Finishing up our conversation on curiosity, like, where does, where does curiosity fall into high performance? And to me, it feels like a, a bedrock trait, but, like, where does it fall?

Where does curiosity in particular fall in the hierarchy? And then what are some of the easy... Everyone's looking for easy wins, and I, and I like, I like starting with easy wins because they're never actually easy. But what are some of those, where do we fall with curiosity, and then take us into some of those places where people can start to, where high performance can feel accessible, I guess. That, that's what I'm trying to get to, is, is not necessarily easy, but accessibility of high performance.

Okay. I, I love, um... So the whole idea of this, the idea of compounding comes from, uh, Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett, and one of my favorite Charlie Munger quotes, there's lots of them, is this idea of going to bed a little bit wiser than you were when you woke up. And I love prompts. I'm a prompt-driven writer, a prompt-driven thinker.

I love Q&A sessions during keynotes, all that stuff. And so one question I think that, that I, I think is, is worth it to ask yourself if you're trying to work this curiosity muscle at the end of every single day is what specifically did I do today To go to bed a little bit wiser than I was when I woke up. And then write down whatever it is that you did and know that you're going to be asking yourself this question at the end of every day and that you're gonna need to write something down. And so what I think this does is it works as a forcing function to go out into the world and be curious. Be curious about people, be curious about ideas, be curious about anything.

Uh, you read a book, you read an article, you talk to a person who's an expert on something, you met with a mentor, you went on a date. Like, whatever it is, what did I do today to go to bed a little bit wiser than I was when I woke up? And so prompts, to me at least, really help drive my decision-making. They help drive my behavior, and I've seen when you stack day after day after day after day, then it compounds just like money has for Warren Buffett, who's made the bulk of his money after the age of 60 because of the power of compounding. And so try to implement those portable lessons from those guys when it comes to business and money, but implement that into your actual life.

And in this case, we're talking about being more curious, so what's a prompt that you know you're gonna ask yourself at the end of each day to work as a forcing function so that you go out and actually live it and do it? And that's, that's the one for me. What am I gonna do to, or what did I do today to go to bed a little bit wiser than I was when I woke up? And then stack days, man, day after day after day. And, and I, again, I like your chances for developing that skill, that muscle of being curious, of learning, of being, of improving a little bit, and then the power of compounding takes over as it goes, as long as you're consistent for years.

And that's part of the, the part that's not as easy, is it takes a long time. Um, and it also takes consistency over the course of a long time, and that is what most people don't want to do, um, because time, uh, we don't have patience, or y- like you said, we have ADHD. Like a lot of us, that's, that's what we, that's, that's very real. And so the power of compounding, uh, is, is super, super powerful, but it does take consistency, and it takes time. So it's almost like you're thinking about your mind like a bank account.

Like, like I make a deposit every day. It's a small deposit. It's just one thing that I learned that, that added a little knowledge to me or a little insight. And the idea is that over time, as we do this every day, maybe some of those ideas start to stack on top of each other, or we see a connection between two ideas that weren't there before. But if we're not doing it every day, right, then, then that value, that capital, right, thinking about a bank a- is not there to begin with.

So how do you create the consistency? Because, and, and I'm gonna leave you with this, that there is this, this, uh, interview with Kobe Bryant that haunts me, uh, um, because I, I have a very loud internal voice, which I know isn't me, uh, if you've read "The Untethered Soul," but it's very loud. Um, and it constantly wants me to negotiate with myself. "Yeah, you said you'd do that every day, but come on, man, like you're a little tired today," or, you know, "Y- y- you don't have to read today. You know, just, just you, you read yesterday.

You're good." Like, how do we not let that voice talk us out of this thing that we committed to? I think it is a daily fistfight to suffocate excuses. My friend Garren Stokes shares this poem about excuses with me all the time, and one of the opening lines of that poem is, "Any excuse, no matter where it comes from or what it is, softens the character." Thinking of that line kills me.

Any excuse softens the character. We all have excuses. We all make them all the time. But if you make a commitment to yourself that you're going to do something, making an excuse softens the character, and that hurts. And so I think about that.

So that's one thing of thinking of excuses as the fact that they're softening your character, and I just cannot live with myself if I'm gonna be softening my character every day. Also, the prompts. You're gonna have these prompts you, that you're gonna commit to asking yourself at the end of the day. Y- I think it's just imperative to do it, to be consistent and do it. Another thing that could be really helpful, especially, um, for all of us, we all need this, is who are the people in your life who are your truth-tellers?

The ones who are willing and able to say, "Ryan, dude, that's not it, man. Like, we made a commitment to do this. We're gonna get up at this time. We're gonna do this thing. We said we're gonna do this.

Let's go, dude. You're not doing it." I think we all need teammates. We all need truth-tellers. We all need those, that, that, those foxhole people that are willing to tell you the truth and let you know if you're becoming, your ego's getting too big or you're becoming too full of...

We, we need that, especially as your fame is rising. It's even more important, I think, to have, to s- to maintain awareness because y- I, I, you've seen this with people who've gained fame. It's super easy for them to lose awareness of the world because the truth-tellers, they don't let them in their, they, they, they kick them out of their life, or they aren't intentional about surrounding themselves. So when it comes to making commitments, when it comes to being consistent, to me, it's very helpful that I have the truth-tellers who are willing to say, "Dude, that's not it, man. That's not what we talked about.

That's not what you said your values are. That's not what you said how you wanna live." And, uh, it may sting, it may hurt when I get told that information, but they're gold. They are gold. I w- I love those people, um, even if in the moment I hate them.

Uh, I love them, though, longer term because they're gonna make me better, and I try my best to be that for them too. So yeah, I think it's a combination of making commitments Having end of the day prompts and then surrounding yourself with truth tellers who care and love you enough to tell you the truth, especially when you're off track. How do you deal with ego as it relates to a truth teller in your life giving you feedback that you just simply do not wanna hear? 'Cause there- no matter how, you know, open we are, right, sometimes some people say something, and a lot of times it's 'cause you know it's true, right? And your ego just rises up. And h- how do you deal with that personally?

Because if we allow that ego to stay in control, then we don't internalize the feedback that we're getting, that we need, that our... That we've, we've assigned this person as a truth teller in our life, they're giving us what we asked them to give us, and now our ego is fighting that thing. How do you work through the ego in your own life in making sure you're staying aware and open and humble to accepting what these truth tellers give you? It's hard. Um, w- with that said, I think it's worth it to ask the question, are they right, or is part of what they're saying right?

And maybe, and this is a conversation I have with my wife when we go on walks every night. If I get some critical feedback from one of those people, even if initially I think they're stupid and they're wrong, be- and that's mostly my ego talking, um, I still will say, "Hey, I got this feedback. Are they right? Is there a chance that they're right, or is there a chance that part of this is correct?" Um, and then we, you know, we talk through that and have conversations, uh, uh, about that feedback.

The other thing that's really, really important, I think, is I've had a... You, you've probably had a boss, I don't know if you ever had, like, a corporate America job, but, like, I've had corporate America jobs. I did for 12 years, and I'd have a boss that would say, "Oh, give me all the feedback, guys. You know, I want it. Give it to me, give it to me.

I'm trying to get better. I want to get better." And then the second you give them actual critical feedback that may sting them a little bit, they just blame, or they complain, or they get super defensive. And what is that leader telling you in that moment? They're telling you, "I don't want any feedback.

I can't handle any feedback." And so I think of that as me being in that per- position now, and if someone gives me feedback, if I immediately get defensive or say, "You're wrong," or I explain, "Oh, you don't understand this part of it, and so you're actually wrong," if I do that, what have I trained that person to do? I've told them, "I can't take it. I can't handle this. I don't actually want feedback."

My, my actions are not following what I told you that I want, and so what is that person gonna do? "Uh, Ryan can't handle it. I'm not gonna give him any feedback anymore." That's, that's what they're gonna do. And so to me, I'm obse- I'm...

You know, you're, you're a athletic guy. You're, you're in sports. Same growing up. Every single repetition as a quarterback when I played was on film, in practice, individual, uh, one-on-ones, seven-on-seven, team periods, all of that is all on film. Obviously, every game, uh, rep is on film, and we are being coached, given a plus, minus, double plus, double minus, on every single repetition of my life, right?

And so I try to think of that same element of I like being coached, I like getting feedback, I like trying to see that even when it stings. And certainly as a football player and as a quarterback, you take sacks, you throw pick sixes, you have all these bad things. You're gonna get coached, and it's gonna be really, really hard. You're gonna be embarrassed in front of all your teammates. It's tough, but I think that's made me better, and I try to take that same approach to life now off of the field.

Um, even though it stings sometimes, is, "Hey, I need it, I want it," and it's really important of how I respond when I get it that I don't send the message to the other person, "I can't handle this. I'm not tough enough," or, "I said I wanted it, but I actually don't. My actions are showing that I don't." So I think feedback is, uh, really important as a leader to think about how are you receiving it and what is, what's the body language, what are the words, what are your actions showing the other person when they have the guts and the love and the care to actually give it to you. Yeah, and for the people who are kinda still coming up, I mean, there is nothing more intoxicating as a leader than someone who's coachable.

When you see someone who's coachable, you, you literally will almost disregard wherever they are on the spectrum of, like, current talent, skill, experience. If you're like, "I can tell this person or, or give this person guidance and they'll actually execute it," y- you will s- you will over-index on that person 100 times over than the person who comes in with maybe a nice resume and, and some experience but, you know, doesn't wanna listen to what you have to say or thinks they know better. And, um, you know, that was actually... It's actually funny. In my own business, the, the insurance agency we were talking about, I found this.

I, I hired a lot of, um, moms with, uh, young kids or single moms because in the insurance industry, very traditional, um, if you can't timestamp an 8:30 to 4:30, they don't want you. So these women would either get marginalized or shoved right out of these agencies, even though they're incredibly talented. And what I found is when I went pound for pound, these women who had predominantly been just customer service, not sales, I shouldn't say just, but they were customer service, not sales, and I put them in sales positions, but they were open to it, right? They wanted to make more money. They wanted that sale.

Versus the producers that I would hire that I had to pay more money for, that I had to, you know, extract from some other agency and bring them in, they would beat them nine out of 10 times because the producer coming in thought they knew everything, and these women were just like, "I wanna make more money. I- this is an opportunity. Whatever you tell me I need to do to make more money, I'll do it," right? And it's like, so all of a sudden it was, like, a big joke 'cause the producers tended to be more male. They'd be like, "Oh, you like the, the ladies better," and I'm like, "I like the ladies better because they're not jackasses who, who wanna, who d- who don't listen and just do shit their own way and underperform.

Like, they're beating you because they work the system," right? And it's, so it's, like, almost like we're, we're just so willing to shoot ourselves in the foot because of our own ego, like, our own, you know, I wanna walk around like I'm the, you know, I'm the man. And it's like that, that... No one I know who is a- Successful over the long term is closed off to feedback. Nobody.

Short-term success, 100% possible. Long-term success, I have never met one in my life. This is why I loved, again, this may not be the right thing to say, and I'd said it and have issues with HR at times. I loved people who played team sports and people from our military, um, because they're getting coached all the time. Uh, people from the military have to work together.

In some cases, it, it's life or death, and they are side by side with teammates, and they gotta be there for one a- one another. So they're great teammates, and they're, they're coachable. They're getting feedback constantly, uh, and it, it's life or death. Team sports, it's not life or death, but they're getting feedback constantly, and they need to learn how to work together with others from diverse backgrounds in some cases of people who are completely different from them, and they all find a way. That's why the locker room is so beautiful because you get, you get these people from all over the, all over the world, and they come together and with a, with a common goal, and they get coached, and they get feedback all the time.

They get called out in front of each other all the time, and they gotta be able to handle that and keep going and keep going. They face adversity all the time, and they gotta keep going. And so to, to me, um, I, I, I, I probably over-index that, uh, in some cases too much. But if you play team sports, I don't care, guy, girl, whatever, if you were serving our country, I'm alway- already gonna... You're gonna get an interview with me for sure.

Uh, then I, I, I'm, yeah, I, I don't know. The, I have done really well when I've, when I've hired people who did those two things. Yeah, I know that there's been, the last, like, 10, 15 years, there's been a big HR movement. I, I also don't think HR departments should even exist, personally. Um, but that's a conversation for another day.

Um, and I mean no offense to the humans in those positions, but I do think that that department in particular has destroyed and/or throttled more companies than any other department in any organization. I, I, I couldn't, I couldn't agree more with you, man. Like, there is absolutely, like... 'Cause it's an, it's, even in the sport, you know, take out, take out the, the, the real death possibility of being in the military, and maybe just say they're, you know, never in that, that type of situation. Either way, there's still, you have an ego death every day, and that to me is what's important. It's if you have never, and this is, we have an entire, unfortunately, we have a, we have a decently sized segment of multiple generations now that have literally never experienced failure.

Even when they've lost, it wasn't a failure. It was a, "Well, you tried hard," right? "Well, you participated. Well, you were this. Well, you were..."

And, and I know that that seems memed, but it's real, and I'll tell you, I see it in the kids. I coach my son's travel baseball team. I see it every day. There are kids who grow up in households, or there are teams of kids from certain towns that no matter what they do, win, lose, or draw, play well, play not, everything's amazing, everything's great. And I'm not saying we should be, like, you know, tearing these kids apart, but the kid needs to experience what failure is like.

If you lose the game, you should not get the trophy. You shouldn't, right? Like, like, you should not get the trophy. You didn't win. It doesn't mean you're a bad person.

It doesn't mean that you're not valuable as a human being to the world, and it doesn't mean you won't win the next tournament. But you did not win this one, and that ego death is so incredibly important, I think, for our, our evolution into adulthood and into if we, if we ever wanna be successful someday. Because if you're doing something worth doing, you are going to lose a lot, and you're gonna get the crap beat out of you, and people are gonna talk crap about you, and people are gonna undercut you, and, and, and people are gonna do, you know, disappoint you. And none of those things are unnatural. They're, they're just the way the world works.

And if you've never experienced loss, you look at, you know, somebody coming to your company and then leaving in three months, and you take that as some personal hit, and oh my God, and oh no, no, no, and that, and you don't know how to handle that. Or someone says no to you for a big sale, or someone doesn't want you to be the speaker at their event, and they choose someone else, and now you literally can't handle it, and now you start looking for reasons to blame them. They're a, you know, just insert whatever "-ist" works best for you. And now, now you have a way of excusing your way out of the fact that you just weren't good enough for that thing. And it, and that, I'm, I just, I believe that we need those ego deaths.

We need that. It, it's, it's, it's, it's crucial to our development and our resilience. Completely agree. This is why I love team sports. Um, one of my daughters plays volleyball, and I love girls' volleyball because you, they lose all the time.

I mean, you l- they, they play sets to 25, and so that's, it, it's not uncommon to go five sets. And think about how many points you've lost. If they win the set 25-23, and maybe they lost two of those sets to go to the five sets, there is an amazing amount of losing and having to respond r- immediately from that adversity of, "I got blocked," or, "I lost the, I hit, I made a mistake," or, "That girl just crushed it on my head." Like, they have to immediately be ready for the next play. "Okay, next play.

Let's go, let's go." Like this next play, next point mentality, uh, that's such a portable lesson for life in general. You, you, you get the adversity. How do you respond? And I, so any ways we can practice that, we can manufacture hardship is so important for all of us, definitely for kids, but for all of us of what are you doing to m- uh, we love, my, Miranda, my, my wife and I love to go hiking.

Like it's, we're choosing to do something that is, we're just in Col- in Boulder, Colorado. It's at altitude. We go up these high hikes. I'm sitting here sounding like I'm way out of shape because I'm breathing so loud, uh, 'cause it's hard. But That's the point, man.

That's the point of, like, choosing these harder things because it, it, it, that adversity, I think, g- as you call it, like, gives you those ego deaths of, "Oh my God, I, I'm kind of embarrassed, but this is good for me. This is good for me to go through this stuff. It's making me better." So yeah, what- whatever it is that we're doing for kids, yourself, finding ways to do the tough thing and then keep fighting through it, I think is a, is a, is a way to, to hopefully go to bed again a little bit better than you were when you woke up. Ryan, dude, w- I wanna, uh, I wanna be respectful of your time and that of the audience's.

Um, before we leave, w- what would you consider your easy mode, just knowing what you know about the topic now? What would be, what would be that thing for you? Oh my gosh, man. I, um, I don't know if I have anything that's... I, I, I guess what's become more normal is to, uh, be cu- is curious about people.

Uh, I think about just, uh, my youngest daughter's soccer games. You know, I feel like I've gotten to know the parents really, really well, and that's just because I'm, I'm interested in them and their stories, because we're lucky to have, like, great parents and really good kids, and our coach is good and, and, and so I just kinda show up and, oh, this is an, we got a new player this year. Okay, let me learn about her mom and her dad. And, a- and I, I don't know, I feel like it's, it's built really fun and nice, enjoyable relationships for me, beyond just getting to watch her compete and lose and have to come back and fight back from that, which is great. Um, and so maybe that comes a little bit more natural.

People have made comments about that. Uh, maybe behind my back they, they make fun of me. I don't know. Um, but I, but I have, that my, that gets brought up to my wife from time to time. So I think it's just become more natural, more normal, is just to try to learn about people and understand them, and that, that builds relationships.

And again, that's what life is all about, is, is really about relationships that you can build. Every opportunity, everything you do in life comes through people. Let's try to get to know people. Curiosity is my love language. So, um, to me, that seems to be the theme of our conversation today.

But that, uh, I would say that's something that's become much more normal and, like, default setting without even thinking, um, that that just kinda happens. I love it. The book is The Price of Becoming: The Compounding Practices of High Performance. Guys, I highly recommend that you subscribe to the Mon, uh, Mindful Mondays, uh, newsletter that you have. Phenomenal.

I'm a subscriber. Um, besides the website, uh, uh, learningleader.com, anywhere else where people should go to check you out, follow along with your journey? I appreciate you, dude. That's, that's mainly it, learningleader.com. That's the name of the podcast, Learning Leader Show, and, you know, the, The Price of Becoming is the, the next book.

So really appreciate you, uh, yeah, man, sharing and, and showing up, um, ready to have a fun conversation today. It was, it was great. It was great. It was, I felt like it was super raw and real, and that's not always, not always what happens on these things, so I really appreciate it, man. Well, I appreciate you coming along for the journey, my friend.

Uh, we're out of here, folks. Thank you. We're out of here. Peace.