Tim Hardcastle is Solving for Diversity in Insurance Product Design

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You save. Selection varies by location while supplies last. In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. Today we have an absolutely tremendous episode for you.

And this is, I'm going to go so far as to give this to tremendous. This is a tremendous, tremendous episode. And I am talking to Tim Hardcastle.com. I am talking to Tim Hardcastle, founder of Instanda. And we're going to get all into what Instanda is.

And you're going to love Instanda. Actually, many of you, when you hear what Instanda does, or if you Google it and check it out, you're going to think that it's too good to be true. And it's not. It's actually pretty incredible. But Tim and I go off in this really amazing entrepreneur conversation in the first half that I think you guys hopefully will really connect to.

Hopefully, you'll take some value out of it. And then we get tactical and talk about the tool and what they're doing and why they're doing it and why it's important. And I got to be honest with you, this is one of my favorite conversations I've had in a very long time. I think you're going to love it too. And it's exciting to share it with you without a doubt.

Before we get there, guys, if you're loving the podcast, if you love the podcast, another great resource is FindingPeak. Go to FindingPeak.com. Subscribe by free. It's emails. A lot of it's text and video.

Instead of sharing stuff on YouTube, I'm putting the videos that I've done about the business and about insights and strategies and tactics around the insurance industry, marketing, sales, all the things I'm learning at Rogue Risk. I'm putting that at FindingPeak.com. You can go and subscribe. And before we get on to the content, I want to give a shout out to Tivoli. Tivoli is dominating the game when it comes to warm phone call transfer, commercial leads to independent insurance agencies, which I know that's not like the biggest world that exists, but they're dominating it.

And they've been a partner of ours for almost two years. We only continue to buy more from them and partner deeper with them. I think very highly of all the people that are over there. They've been incredible to us. And partnering them has built a foundational flow of high quality leads that we close easily above 50%.

And on really good months, we're north of 60% closing leads from Tivoli. And we love it. We love them as a partner. And I couldn't be more happy and blessed to have them as a sponsor of this show and help pay the bills for what makes this happen. So, um, love Tivoli highly recommend them T I V L Y.com.

That's T I V L Y.com. Go to T I V L Y.com. All right, now let's get on to this absolutely double tremendous episode with Tim Hardcastle. So we had a great call with your team actually yesterday. So we're doing some we're having some conversations with your team about some some projects.

And I had my COO and CRO on and I had a marketing and we're starting to feel for what you guys can do. So I'm like, I'm super excited to have this call. It's like the perfect timing because I literally just got like the full demo of everything you guys are doing yesterday. So it's all fresh in my mind. And, um, Oh, wow.

So you can, you can like split, you can tell between the, the hyperbole and the reality, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I, I'd love to start, um, I'd love to start just, just for, for people who haven't heard of the company before, or, um, you know, maybe a little bit of the origin story, maybe a little bit of yours, a little bit of the company's just, just kind of catch us up to speed.

We don't have to do the, you know, the every nitty gritty detail, but, um, you know, the high points of the origin story would be great to kind of level set and then we can get into some of the things you're doing. Yeah. Okay. Uh, well, so I was, uh, where did I get the idea from? Let's start there and kind of get, get to the why, shall we pretty quickly?

Cause I think if you don't understand the why then, um, so I, I was the CIO, the global CIO for his Cox, which is a company that specializes in insurance from loads of London. It has retail, it has commercial, and it has insurance propositions that go out UK, Europe, and us. And, uh, long story short, the, the conclusion I reached having been in a C CIO position in other industries. Um, so we have a very eco-friendly office here, so the lights go off if you don't move around, right? So if you see me waiting, it's because I'm trying to activate the lights, right?

There we go. Are you all right? Oh, we're right in the heart of London here, just about 200 yards away from Lloyd's of London. So you're getting the backdrop of the London steady streets and the environmentally friendly office anyway. So, um, his Cox had, uh, was using technology.

I didn't think it was the best thing that they were doing. They were great at underwriting. Um, and I left his Cox and then did more research and dug into that. And then why, why was this an issue for one of the best companies in the UK? Right.

And, uh, I got to, um, a place where I was talking to some other brokers, other insurers. And it was clear there was massive gaps in and around how do you do distribution effectively? How do you get products to market? Right. And, you know, Ryan, cause you've been in the industry, how many years?

17 years. I think. Yeah. Right. Insurance is very, very diverse.

Right. You can go to a underwriter for BOP in one company. They'll do it very differently from another company. Right. So how do you, from a software technology perspective, solve to that?

Right. You can't in my view with standard models of how the software work. So the, the hypothesis we took and the thing that fired me up, cause it wasn't something the industry was asking for is you democratize the technology. Right. You put it in the hands of the people that are running the business, whether that's a broker an MGA, the carrier, the experts, the marketeers, the underwriters, the, the folk that know how to put insurance propositions together and go get the business and service that business.

You put it in their hands. And that's what we built within standard. And no one asked for it. It was the world's first. It was very difficult to do.

I can give you the longer story. If you like about, you know, the fact I sold the clothes off my back to get the business going, because, you know, you need a purpose and a why and a belief to motivate you through the really hard times. Right. And our belief was technology was not being served. It was not serving the industry well, and it was not doing it a great value.

And, and we put a lot together in a democratized thesis around solving to this diversity problem. Yeah. Well, I like to hear. I like to hear that you did have to sell the clothes off your back because what it shows is great. I feel like every entrepreneur should have to do that.

You know, I have a different but similar story in many ways in terms of you make these sacrifices and they're necessary, not, not so much necessary. Just because I mean, you know, I think some people think these things like make a good story and they can put it in their Instagram timeline and it gets them speaking. You know, it's like, it's like hardship for the wrong reasons. Right. They're the reason that, you know, I did this podcast.

Every once in a while, I just pop the mic on and I just start talking because I get like a thought in my head. Right. And I there's solo episodes or whatever, kind of interspersed between all the interviews that I do with like this with with amazing people. And, you know, I made this comment that I, I hadn't ever explained it this way, but I was like, you want to surround yourself with people who walk with a limp. Right.

Like if you haven't been battle tested, if you don't have some scars, if you haven't been knocked down. Yeah. Do I really want you like around me? You know what I mean? Like if you had a nice middle class upbringing, went to a liberal arts school, work for a big bureaucracy, and then you're going to tell me what to do.

It's very difficult for me to care. And I don't know that that's right. It doesn't mean that those people aren't intelligent or have good points of view, but it definitely that I, you know, you almost want to hear like I did this thing and it absolutely blew up and I effed up all these parts of it. And, you know, and now I'm doing this and it's like, okay, that shows me that like you were willing to invest that you were committed that you, you, you, you learn some lessons like, you know, you, you don't learn lessons from winning all the time. You know what I mean?

And I get it. I get it. And I think the, the kind of perspective you take on risk. I mean, I wasn't thinking about the risk, right? Because I had so much passion and belief for what we were doing.

And I believed it was the right thing that your kind of perception about risk is, is reduced because you're so, you're so determined to make it happen. But you're right. It's a, it's an, it's an endeavor that you, your close friends, your family, everyone around you is on this journey, right? It's not, it's not to be done lightly. And I therefore think every successful founder has to have their, their belief, their passion, their drive to take the steps necessary to do everything it takes to get the business going.

And, and then when I talk to colleagues that are still stayed in corporate world, they have a perspective of risk, which might mean that they take business case presentations to their boards. And it's about a risk analysis. And, and when you're in the realms of building a business from scratch, that kind of thesis of logically analyzing a problem doesn't always apply. Certainly in the early years, because you have to have the, because like I said, no one asked us to create a no code platform, right? No one did.

It was like, we invented it. We sold it to the market. It was slow to get going because there was all the natural skepticism as you, with any new great idea, right? Yep. It's time and time again, but I have absolutely no regrets.

I mean, do I look 20 years older than I really am? Of course I do. Yeah. So I know that I, I, I, well, I feel that unfortunately most people think I'm in my twenties and I'm in my forties. So yeah, you do look good, Ryan.

I wouldn't take it away from you. Thanks bro. Yeah. I do have that upstate New York pasty white. I haven't seen the sun in like four months look going, but yeah.

Your peak fitness program. Right. I've read about it. Yeah. You know, I, I, I, I, you know, I, I, I find I, I came up, I realized about, uh, in 20, you know, my own thing in 2018, uh, 2017.

Um, I put on a conference and halfway through that conference, I literally ran out of energy, like not, Oh, Hey, I didn't need something. I wasn't physically fit enough to make it through the conference as the host. And it would, the second half of the conference was an enormous struggle for me. And I said, this will never happen again, ever. And I made health a competitive advantage of business.

And that's why I write all that stuff is really just like, it's almost like, as I learned stuff, I just write about it. Because I basically said, I'm going to turn my fitness into a competitive advantage in business where if I'm, you know, I've had business meetings and this is going to sound terrible where I've literally dragged the meeting out just because I knew the other person would run out of steam. Cause they weren't physically fit. Right. And eventually I would just wear them down.

Yeah. Well, you can apply. I mean, that's a micro microcosm example of where you're using your advantage in that situation. Right. Yeah.

But there is a, the, the undercurrent of the kind of the, the piece that you're talking about is resilience. Right. It's about the ability to go longer, further and harder than, than anybody else. And when you're building a business, as you know, from personal experience, again, you, boy, do you need that, right? Yes.

You've got to have that. And that's our story too. I mean, you know, you asked about the kind of where we came from. We, we launched the business in 2016 as a kind of soft launch and here we are six years on and, you know, we went from nothing to, to where we are right now. We're in 13 countries.

We have 80 clients. We have a big team in the U S and so, you know, you need all of that energy, that horsepower, wherever it comes from. I mean, you're, you're obviously almost getting to professional realms. If you would fine tuning yourself than where you are, which is credit to you, but I think it's still, you need that mental. Yeah.

Resilience. Yeah. It's a, have you ever read the book, uh, grit by Angie Duckworth. I think it's Angie, Angela Duckworth, I think is her name. No, I haven't read that one.

Uh, it's a, it's, if you're, it's like, I would put it as like an airplane read. Right. Well, I'm coming over soon. So yeah, I'll add that. Yeah.

Grit is the name. Very, very good. So, you know, I think, uh, there's a, there's a quote, um, or there's a, there's this, it's an Instagram clip and I don't mean to diminish it in that, but it was an interview that David Goggins did with Joe Rogan. And this is one of those pull out clips. Um, he's talking about, obviously he's every other word is a curse.

I'm not going to say, you know, to go through that, but, but if you know David Goggins, but the idea that he put in there is if you're going to do something. Like building a technology that has never been built before building an agency, the way we're trying to build an agency, um, creating carriers out of scratch. Like that pie and coterie and some of these us-based insure tech carriers are doing. If you're going to do things that, that, that haven't been done before, or that people have said aren't possible or that are too hard to invest in. You're going to be misunderstood.

Like you just, you have to, and when he, he said that and like saying that to you now, it's like, well, duh. But when he said it in that show for me, and it was a few years ago, maybe 2019, 2020, I was like, this, all the feedback that I'm getting now makes a lot of sense. Why are you expecting people to just understand that a no code policy, uh, uh, uh, policy management system that can be, you know, that you can pop your own paper in and compare that against, you know, API. And I'm now I'm talking details to the standard platform that I just saw, but like, you know, all these different things and you can drag and drop. And the question says, and like, it's easy.

Like everyone's immediately going to go, no, no. We're trying to a thousand times. It doesn't work. You know, ALS download, you know, you know, you're going to barf all this crap on you and you're going to be misunderstood. And you're going, no, no, I believe this.

So I feel it every day. It's on my fingertips. I'm bleeding into my computer as I create this thing. And, um, it was almost like he gave, you know, in this case, me personally, you know, not me personally, but you know, as I'm listening permission to be misunderstood with my idea and that that was okay. You know, if that makes sense.

And, and that was like a huge weight. It was like, I slumped something off my shoulders when I heard that. Cause I was like, oh, yeah, I'm not supposed to be understood, you know? And it almost allows you some freedom as an entrepreneur, which is really nice. It is.

And I think to your point, I mean, we've both been helped by some tailwinds, right? I mean, you know, we, we came out of, um, I guess you might even say before the insured tech kind of wave was being talked about in any meaningful terms. We were one of the early, early arrivals. And you're right. We hit a wall, right?

There was like reluctance, disbelief, you know, I love the light look of it, but can you come back when everything is done from, you know, that kind of normal story. Um, so, but we have been helped by the tailwinds, right? So we, we've been blessed with this wave of challenging the industry in a good way. I think because the majority of insure techs, as you look at the statistics, 60, 70% of insure techs are there to collaborate and to enable existing incumbents, right? And they're not threatening it.

So I think, I think broadly, most of them are kind of like positive and it's a force for change. And then I think you've also got the arrival, like you say, of, you know, newbie carriers, which are asking questions of the existing, um, incumbents in the industry. So I think we've both been helped with this wave of positivity around, you've got to change and most of that change is going to help you get better. Right. So I think we've got those tailwinds, but the other thing I would say, um, is, is that you still hit headroom ceilings, which you have to break through.

Right. Yeah. We're at a stage now where, you know, we are the core platform for a number of smaller MGAs. They use the, we are their most valuable asset and that's what they use to write their business. But yeah, I can see that in the platform when I went.

Yeah. Right. You still go to the bigger companies. They're going to be skeptical because you need a whole bunch of different attributes when you go up the, up the food chain. Right.

And so you're still chomping away and you still need the, the momentum and the energy you brought with you from day one to keep going. So back to your point about personal fitness and mental acuity and resilience. Yeah. You still need that. Right.

It's not, this is a marathon run at a, you know, quite a sprint, but you know, you're having to run fast to hit, hit through some of those new walls that we're encountering. Yeah. I think, uh, uh, uh, every, every therapist looks as an entrepreneur as like an annuity. You know what I mean? Like the amount of like mental crap that you got to go through.

They're like, wait, you're an entrepreneur. Cha-ching. They're like, Hey, you know, you can buy that house, honey. We're, we're going to go. I got an entrepreneur on the books.

Yeah. I, I, I, maybe I've got a secret asset or, uh, or, uh, uh, a thing that's firing me up in further. My wife actually is she's, she's amazing. My soulmate. Um, but she's a child psychotherapist.

Oh, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. The masters from Cambridge university. Yeah.

Yeah. Maybe that's one of my secret weapons. All right. I've got this, you know. So what am I supposed to, honey?

Today, I looked at the wall and thought about running head first, right into it at full speed. What does that mean? Stuff like that. So no, it's a, it's interesting. You know, this, this game is, is so interesting.

And, uh, the things that I have found the most intriguing about are, are, are obviously incredibly passionate about building my particular business. And I love talking to people that are doing it in all these different places. And I do some investing and stuff. Cause I just, I just love, I think I love building and growing. And I, and I think the piece of it, and it's why I started writing my little thing.

And then I want to get to your business. I don't want to talk about me, but the, the finding peak stuff that I do. Um, yeah, the reason that I got so into that is this conversation is actually the most intriguing part to me that the psychology of the people that, that create the thing. Now I want to talk about the thing and I want to talk about how you create it. Cause that's also very interesting to me.

It's important, but I think when you're in this learning, you know, I have my way of getting through it and, you know, and, and, and good, good, uh, uh, uh, Japanese whiskey and American Scott, uh, American bourbon is a big part of that. Uh, but you know, you're going to have your own way of getting through it. And I'm, I'm interested in, you know, I get so interested in that because even if you're not growing a company, maybe just you're an independent agent working inside an agency today, like so many of the people that listen to this podcast, they're going to have these little moments where they're like, man, you know, I can't get through this hurdle. Or I, I can't, I can't break this sales goal for some reason. And sometimes hearing the mentality or the mindset, or that just, here's this guy who's incredibly successful in this really cool company.

It's doing all these interesting things and shit. He's, he's experiencing the same struggles that I am. You know, this three, three year in the business producer in Western Tennessee. You know what I mean? That, that to me is how we all connect at a deeper level.

And I think it's really important. Well, I think, I mean, you're getting to the essence, really. I think of something quite deep. I wasn't expecting to talk about it on the podcast, but here goes, let's get, let's get into it. I mean, you're talking about, I think that the very essence of human endeavor.

Right. You know, what is, what is it that fires people up to go climb mountains, to cross, to cross oceans, to, to, and some people have different perspectives about the amount of risk or the, or the chasm that they're leaping across. Right. But everybody, I believe that is, you know, is passionate and committed to what they're doing, unless they're just taking a joy ride and they're just kind of saving the, you know, the easy life. And most people I meet in business, executive, middle management, whatever, then they are really enthusiastic about insurance.

Right. They want to do an amazing job. They feel the honor of the service. I mean, I, I get a lot of the sense of this. I don't know about how you feel about it, Ryan, but you know, this sense of you're providing a element to society that gives them peace of mind, right?

It's a sense of safety. It's, it's oftentimes very invisible. People don't necessarily think about it every day. And that's one of the challenges of customer engagement. We'll get back onto that maybe later, but it's a, it's a, it's a service that is enabling global commerce, global peace of mind for many, many people across PNC and life and health.

Right. And therefore I think that we find that there's a lot of people which are believing that they're in this service. Then you say, well, there's another, there's another level to that about how do you make all of that just amazing? How do you create the great experience? And like you say, some people are jumping like the grand Canyon in terms of chasms, like a building, something from scratch.

They're building amazing companies like yourself. And other people are just saying, how do I get through the wall of just getting these agents to come on board and just deal with my, my offering in a digital environment because they're used to doing something in the old way, 20 years ago. And, and, and I think everyone's just trying to cross their little bit of chasm. And, and all of us, uh, I think need to be fueled and to be successful. You have to be fueled by a purpose.

Yeah. Why are you doing it? That belief. And, and that comes from different places. I have it, you have it.

Yep. Uh, and, um, you know, we can maybe get a bit more into that, but it's about the essence of human endeavor. And I love being in the industry because you meet so many people that are motivated and excited by jumping that chasm, whether it's small or large or whatever. Um, I, um, to one, I literally couldn't agree with everything that you said more. Um, the term I use is we build a foundation of sustainability upon which everyone gets to build whatever the hell they want to build.

Right. That that's the way the language that I use. Um, so, so literally you're talking like this is, we're in the same exact vein of thought and the way we think about this. Um, you know, the part that I just want to pile on a little tiny bit is, um, no, no little boy or little girl grows up wanting to work in the insurance industry. Nobody, zero, zero out of 7 billion said, I want to work in the insurance industry, but we find it in whatever way we come to it.

Yeah. And we develop this arcane set of skills and knowledge that are completely useless in any other industry yet. And that's kind of what is the initial hook, but that's really not enough to keep us. Right. So what happens is what you realize, uh, uh, uh, over time.

And it's why I think time in this industry is as important as skill and ability is because what you, what you, what you bump into is to stay here. You have to love it. You have to love it. It's one. It's not easy.

There's nothing easy about what we do too. There's incredible risk, both regulatory and straight. Like if you mess up, someone's life is ruined, right? You don't ensure their business properly, their personal assets, property, their life property, their health property. You do something.

So there's real ramifications, which means there's a sense of responsibility. So if you're willing to take on the fact that it is difficult, just at its face, that there's an incredible level of responsibility and that it is. And then, and then the beauty that comes out the other side is this choose your adventure nature of the industry. Like it literally is a, uh, uh, Hey, if, if you want to climb the mountain, go to page 78. If you want to jump in the swimming pool, go to page 15, you know, like you can build whatever you want.

You can be, you know, I've been a boots on the ground agent. I've been a CMO for a, for a, you know, a national, uh, uh, insure tech. I've worked for an association. I've, you know, I've done all these different things, but I'll never leave. I love it.

And the people you run into have this similar passion and these crazy journeys. And it's, it's absolutely amazing. It's, it's, I feel like we've, we've found this little secret that none of our friends who are in the industry. No, like, you know, I get my chops busted all the time for being insurance. And I'm like, and I just smile and laugh, you know, I take the ribbing or whatever, but it's like in my head, I'm like, I know this secret that you guys don't know.

Like, this is a pretty special place to be. And as much as it is like boring at face value, also amazing. So, um, I, I, I appreciate your passion and love it. And obviously I'm in a mood this morning. Um, so all that being said, you've built something pretty cool.

Uh, I got a chance to get the, the, the full demo yesterday. I've been, yeah, I've been talking to, um, a couple of your people for a while. And now, um, oh my gosh, only because we're on the show right now. Uh, nation, um, starts with an N. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Great.

Great. And if you're listening to this man, I'm sorry. It's only because we're on the show that I forgot your name, but, uh, he's been great. And, and, um, and, you know, we're starting to work on some of our own, uh, internal, um, pieces to, to figure out how we fit it in. But I, you know, obviously there's more conversations to have, but just in full transparency to everyone listening, uh, we are, you know, moving down the path of potentially engaging within standard.

But we set this interview up way before that even happened, which is cool. So, um, so I love what you guys are doing. Um, uh, getting into the actual, so, so one of the first things that hit me was it's, it's a true, and it's not the only thing it does. So we're going to break this into parts and you can take us where we want to go. But one of the first things that hit me was it's a true policy management system versus the very archaic, um, kind of agency management system that a lot of people are currently using.

Maybe you, if, if, if you feel that that's true, a true depiction, um, and certainly I'm talking about the U S market. Um, what do we, one, do you think that that's an accurate description? And two, um, what do you think the core differences there would be? What's up guys? Sorry to take you away from the episode, but as you know, we do not run ads on this show in an exchange for that.

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All right, I'm out of here. Peace. Let's get back to the episode. So I think the, just let's take one small step back and then I maybe come back. Yeah, please.

Yeah. I'm a talker. So you do whatever you want to go. It's great. I'm enjoying listening to you.

Actually. I forgot for a minute. I was actually on the podcast. Sorry. Sorry.

Sorry. So, so let me just pick up a thread from the beginning. Right. Which was when we designed and thought about the platform, what were we, what problem were we trying to solve? Right.

We were trying to solve this, this, as you're digging in, we were trying to solve this challenge of so much diversity in product design rates, questions, forms, the way that you want to distribute, whether it's via agent, whether it's direct to consumer, you put all of those things together. And the, the permutations and combinations around that are endless. And the only way that that had been solved to in historical terms with systems, right. Was that the systems were designed for let, I would call it predominantly the back office. Right.

Because you go back 10, 20 years. Not a lot of stuff was done online because it didn't exist. Right. So the kind of conceptual thinking, the design thinking around those systems was very back office orientated. It was how do I process a transaction and flow through something.

Step-by-step automation, engagement with the customer, self-service, all of these things, whether it's a agent or a customer weren't really conceived when a lot of these systems were designed. And then here we are 20 years later. And many of those systems are still being crowbarred or sledgehammered into organizations. And everyone does a great job of not talking about the fact that there is very little, if any, ROI on those implementations because everyone spends a heap of years getting them in tens of millions of dollars, putting them in. And no one wants to admit that that was not a great return on shareholder funds.

Right. So we, we looked at it and said, do you know what? You can't solve this diversity by code because every time you make a change, you have to write more code and you have to chain, make a change in the database and that's expensive. And then you see all the crowbarring that's happens and the SIs kind of like it because they make a bit of money out of it. Right.

It's more PS fees to get it in. We just said, let's come at this with a different angle and take a view and say the experts in the industry, these amazing people, the ones that are really progressive, they want to do things different themselves. We can never get a software engineer to conceive of and imagine how they would want to do certain things. We can do it at a principle level. We know what distribution about.

We know what rates are. We know what we can never cater for every single use case. That's a ridiculous idea. That's how software was designed 20 years ago that they were trying to do. And so we came at it and said, let's give the freedom.

Let's make it possible for any change to be made within any environment geographically product line and make the put that into the hands of the professionals, the professional insurers, and give them with the appropriate governance and audit trails and all the things that systems give you. Right. Give them the power to write any kind of distribution model, any kind of product, any kind of rates, et cetera, et cetera. So that's the problem we solve to, and we only solve to it by, as I said at the beginning, democratizing the technology. And you've just seen it, right?

Up close. Yeah. Right. So then you take from that and you say, okay, then how do you, how do you cater for all of the different scenarios and different companies? And that's what we've been doing for the last, you know, six years.

We've been proving it out. So that's why we're in the US market. You know, we have 25 soon to be 30 clients. We're in the UK. We're in Europe.

We're actually in Japan, tough market, very, very different, but that just, it's just proving that the platform can be easily changed and adapted for countries, product lines, different kinds of rates. And so we, back to your question, when analysts look at us, um, and say, what are you? We designed our platform with flexibility in mind. And this whole concept of, we didn't know how things were going to go exactly which distribution channel, but that's cater at a principle level for any distribution engagement model. And we don't know exactly how the ratings will go, but that's a principle level cater for any scenario we can imagine.

Right. So that, but we designed it from a kind of front to back. We thought about the customer and then we came back into the back office. So progressively we've added functionality in the back office because people have said to us, we still got to do some of that stuff. Right.

Yeah. Um, so, so in answering your question specifically, we are called by the analysts like Selen and Navarica, for example, a digital paths or a digital core. So we do quote bind service payment renewal and simple claims. Right. That's the end to end.

Um, I just think it's insurance technology. It's like, it's like the things that you need to do as an MGA, as a carrier, whatever, to, to, to write your product service, your customer. But we would be described as a, a digital paths or a core tech. I think is the latest, um, latest phrase that I hope there's being moved to. Yeah.

I hate the term core tech. I I've, I've heard it. I know what it means. And unfortunately does have a, um, there's a ubiquitous nature to it. People seemingly understand what it means.

It's like one of those terms that you like hate, but also kind of like describes the thing to that being said, I think it underwhelms in terms of, uh, it, it underwhelms the wrong word, it lowers the expectations or lowers, it seemingly doesn't give credence to actually what you're doing. If that that's probably a better way to say it is, um, you know, so when I, when I, let me jump on that too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Please, please, please. If I may, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

I really feel strongly about this. So, um, I was immensely proud. Uh, when I went to ITC in Vegas last year, right. I was immensely proud of, um, of something. Let me tell you this.

I would, I was immensely proud of the level of narrative and the words that were being used by people in the industry that I believe we are one of the very few companies that started that narrative. And the narrative was around agility and flexibility and speed to market and no code. Yep. And the narrative that was adopted at ITC by many of the existing incumbents that have been there for many years is those words. And then they would tag on.

And what we've seen of late is emerging of low code and no code. Right. And low code to use your phrase is ubiquitous cover for old technology that you still have to program. Yeah. Um, and it's not, I would love to describe ourselves as something new and different, but, you know, Brian, every company would like to call themselves something special.

Yeah. So I have to kind of navigate my way through some of the labeling that we get given. I don't like it either. Because even if I go back to PaaS, just think about that middle word. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So I have to kind of navigate my way through some of the labeling that we get given. I don't like it either. Because even if I go back to PaaS, just think about that middle word.

Yeah. Admin. I mean, what strategy analysts within the world will tell you that there is any value-add in admin? It's too true. I know.

So here's, here's one thing I want to, I want to put to you and get you into it. Yeah. And it's not, I would love to describe ourselves as something new and different, but you know, Brian, every company would like to call themselves something special. Yeah. So I have to kind of navigate my way through some of the labeling that we get given.

I don't like it either. Because even if I go back to PaaS, just think about that middle word. Yeah. Admin. I mean, what strategy analysts within the world will tell you that there is any value-add in admin?

It's too true. I know. So here's, here's one thing I want to, I want to put to you and get your feedback on. Um, so I have been selling things to agents for more than a decade. And if you count speaking engagements, it's probably close to 15 years selling things to agents.

And in most industries with most consumer bases, I found that new, fun, exciting sells. In our industry, that doesn't always happen. Right. And I think some of the mistakes of some of the insure tech revolutionaries of 2016, which, um, I was a very proud, uh, I stood on the ramparts of the independent agency and said, all you sons, which is you shall not pass. You know, um, the, you know, the, uh, the, the, the, you know, what they were doing, new and better and different, bam, and empowered.

And excited in our space. Seemingly, again, I can only speak to the U S market. The carriers that the MGA is the wholesalers that the retail agencies and agents, um, they want, give me the best version of the thing I already know works. Right. Right.

So, so that is, that is often how, uh, the, these legacy technologies, which will present themselves as low code or flashy, but really what we know is they just have 400 people behind the scenes, like running paper from desk to desk. Right. Um, that's how they get away with it. Yeah. And it's like, how do you, so, you know, when I think of a company like yours, that is absolutely doing something that is different a hundred percent and it works and it's special and I can see it.

And, you know, hopefully there's a, they're there for us, but even if there's not, I'm impressed and want, I'm going down the path. Right. So, um, that all being said, uh, how do you position that in a way that agents don't get scared away because they've been kind of burned so many times by new different, um, but attract enough attention that they understand you are not the same thing that they've always seen. It's a, it's a, I don't know that I have the answer, but it is definitely always this fine line between we are, we are the best, uh, the best next step from where we were. Right.

Cause then, cause you like want to reach, but not too far. Cause if you go too far, they're like, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nope. Not for me. You know, Hey, I just bought my spouse, uh, seven series BMW. Like I'm not doing anything wrong.

You know, that's like kind of the feedback you get. You know, I learned this lesson really early in my career. Um, I was speaking at an event and this, I was talking about writing blog posts of all, of all things. And this kid in the audience said like, Hey, my agency principal won't let me do that. What do I do?

I said, well, then you got to find an agency that will, maybe you got to leave or start your own. And how naive I was. Right. So, um, so, so things over, but it's a really good point. I think, I think there's, there's a couple of observations.

If I can just add on to what you're saying, because I'm going to build on your, build on your theme here. Right. Let's just zoom out a second. Insurance as an industry, as we've discussed and talked about, we both love it. We feel very privileged to be in it.

We may, we recognize the challenges of being a challenger to the status quo. Right. Um, but at the same time, the rewards for busting through that are emotionally and everything else. Tremendous. Yes.

But the insurance industry as a whole is almost, it's a, it's a, it's a problem in of itself because it's so darn resilient itself. Right. You look at all the crises that have gone on. Insurance has sailed on through, man. I mean, you know, you, apart from AIG that kind of had some odd things going on with financial and corporate engineering, every other company has done pretty okay.

Right. That's a very nice way of describing what AIG did. You are very kind. That's, that's one lens to apply. Right.

The second lens to apply, however, is even over, even within that, those companies that have taken action in difficult times, and this is every other industry, but it does apply to insurance. Generally, they've been the most. Yeah. Progressive in difficult times, either through M and a shedding costs. Right.

In difficult times, as we're seeing now will be the winners over a five to 10 year period. Yes. Right. Okay. So, so if we take those two things, one, there is a general level of resilience, but even within that, the ones that are more aggressive will be successful in the five to 10 years.

That's again, what fires me up because those that are going to be progressive and that's our vision. Our vision is to work with in the core markets of UK and US for us every single progressive insurer. Right. Because we've recognized those ones that are really progressive and going to want to move forward will be the ones that will embrace technology and like we're offering. And so you're then saying you're then looking at companies that are culturally today likely to want to engage with something new in the way that we offer it that you're excited about our technology.

Right. You're a very progressive guy as your company is. And you can only do so much at any one time. Right. So you have to look for good matches.

Right. Of what people are thinking about being innovative and moving forward. And then what we do is we wait for some. And this is a long term game, man. Boy, it's a long term game.

You then work for the referrals and the references and the examples of where people are speaking about the fact. Yep. They've done stuff. And it works. Right.

Because no matter how hard we try. And we've seen this over many years. If I go into a sales pitch. Or my team does. And they're ranked alongside older tech firms or whatever.

And you've got a guy or a gal on the other side of the table that's had a bad experience. We speak our truth. Because that's the culture that we built. The next sales rep will not because I've bought in my time. Over decades.

Many, many. Tens of millions of dollars from sales reps from software companies. And in the main. They're not honest people. Yeah.

They will miss sell. So we rank alongside all of these folk. And who's going to tell that we're any different from the next guy or gal. Right. So the way that we look at it.

Just a long way around to your question is. We say progress. Are those. Is the culture. Is the environment that we're.

Of that company that we're dealing with progressive. Is a leader a progressive person. That's a good tick. And then secondly. We wait for this longer term game of referrals and references and use cases and case studies.

To demonstrate. That the value is available from our technology and is not available from others. And then the third thing, which is a bit tactical. We allow people to engage with us for a period of let's say three months. And test it out.

Yeah. And even we even say to people. During the RFI RFP process. Give us a week. Set us in a question.

Ask us to build a product. We will turn it around. We will turn it around in a week and show you the actual platform working. Yeah. That scenario on.

So. So we kind of give them layers of protection. One is. I've heard it from somebody else because it works. Two is.

I might have tested it through the RFP. Yeah. And three. I'm going to give you a three month period to really kind of like get into the weeds with it. Yeah.

With all of that, what we found is our success is building the momentum's building because we can only knock down so much at any one time. I mean, like you, I am a real believer that the insurance industry needs so much more from technology than it has had to date. Yep. And that's part of my mission is to take that out. But I can only reach so many people.

Only so many people are going to believe and only so many people are going to engage because they may have bought their seven series BMW last week and they don't want to upset anybody else. Yeah. You know, you have to be at the end of the day. I have a big vision, but I have to be pragmatic with how many people I can convince, right? Yes.

And so there's a concept that that I talk about a lot is talking retail agencies in particular, large and small. There's two types. There's growth agencies and lifestyle agencies. Right. Lifestyle agencies are interested in optimizing current profit.

Right. So they're going to, they're going to go to every growth summit. They're going to, they're going to demo every tool. They're never going to buy one. All they really care about and not wrongly.

That's not, this is not a judgment. All they really care about is optimizing profit because it's usually an owner centric model. Right. Then you have growth agencies. And those are the agencies though a much smaller number, true growth agencies that are investing in technology like in standup.

And what the unfortunate part about when I see companies like yours, where I dig into, I get a couple of demos in a couple of calls in, you're starting to dig into actual paperwork and the, and all that. You're like, okay, these guys are, are, are, are, are, uh, are real is that so there've been so many, um, posers that have come before. And there's so much PTSD in the marketplace from tools that, that, that, Hey, I thought this was going to change my business and it blew up on day three. And, and it took, and, and what I really like, and again, coming back to your particular product, one of the things that turned me onto it was, um, I could see that while it's an engagement, right. It wasn't such an investment that if it, if it doesn't work for some reason that your business is now heading right for the mountain.

Right. And, and, and, and I don't mean that to, to diminish what is possible because what I think what I'm seeing and what I think the message should be is that you don't have to invest $200 million into this core tech that that's built from scratch with ones and zeros anymore to, to implement highly effective, highly profitable growth focused solutions that change the nature of your business. And we are, we are, we have come to a day in technology and particularly in our industry where you can make, you can implement, uh, uh, no, you know, we'll use the term no code. Um, uh, uh, uh, I don't want, I don't know the right term you're, you're, you're not taking on as much risk, like doing business with you guys has this incredible upside and, and versus the tools that have come before you or the legacy tools. It doesn't have nearly the downside risk to your business or the, or that kind of sunk cost aspect, uh, to your business in implementing this tool, which I think should open people's eyes and should give them hope that they don't have to invest their entire, their entire, uh, annual budget into one project and put all their eggs in that one basket.

That, that, that this is something that you can use as a project and experiment and grow, but then all the upside is there and, and that's possible now. And they need to change the way they're thinking. I mean, that's, that's kind of what comes to my mind. Yeah, it's absolutely, it's absolutely the, uh, an astute observation, given you've only just known us from a short period, but obviously you've been a great observer on the industry. And I think that you're, you're, you're bringing to the surface a bit of a dirty secret, right?

The insurance industry is held to hostage. It's held to ransom by the legacy players that have, you know, the balance sheet is awash with tens of millions of dollars of sunk costs that they can't write off. And then, and then it's compounded by some of those players making it impossible to get data out. Yep. So as a former CIO, one of my technology strategies was to dumb down the, um, the, um, the applicant, the power of the application and increase and empower up the value of data so that you can generate insights and analytics, right?

So that you could then it's the old style description of service oriented architecture. You'd be able to plug and play different components for different parts of your business. Yeah. Some of the legacy players make that impossible because you can't get data out. And so they, they hold to hostage these big companies with a technology that is old and difficult to change and then charge them inordinate amounts of money.

And then to your point, we come along as a new entrant, relatively new and can offer this new wave of benefit and value release in a much short period of time. And the, the sunk cost, the investment is so much smaller. Um, and so there is this battle going on, I believe, cause we get a lot of the bigger carriers saying, Hey, we've got a 1 billion, 2 billion book. We're never going to put that on you guys today or tomorrow or next week because you're not big enough, but we want to be able to take a look over the next three to five years to say, maybe in that timeframe, you will be big enough. Yeah.

So we can start working with you now because we just absolutely fundamentally object to the fact that we are held to ransom by this other tech firm. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, and, and so this freedom, this path to freedom. And again, that's another motivation for us and our entire team.

Yeah. We know we're not the solution for everything and everybody today, but we believe we can bring value for, you know, every, you know, individual use cases was every single company. That is progressive and I excites us. It motivates us. We love really difficult challenges because as you've seen, the technology is flexible, right?

Yeah. You can genuinely mold it, meld it to your needs. And, um, you know, let's, let's hope that our conversation continues beyond this podcast. It was a bit of, it's not a setup listeners. It's the, the.

Yeah, no, not at all. I'll, I'll be honest with you. I had this on the, I knew, I knew we were talking, but I had no, I actually didn't know that we were talking. That until this morning, that this was the call that with you. And then I was like, oh my gosh, this is perfect.

We literally just had a demo yesterday. So, um, it's awesome. I, uh, I want to be respectful of your time. I want to be respectful of the audience's time. Um, and I think, you know, let's, I would love to run this back in six months.

And, and particularly if we get down the path and we start doing business together, I'd love to have you back in and talk about that experience and what we're going through. Um, I appreciate what you're doing. And like I said, whether we actually end up working together or not, I'm incredibly impressed. I think that what you guys are building, the type of technology you're building and implementing is the future. This high upside, uh, uh, low sunk cost technology that allows people to, to really get in and play in their business a little bit, to, to take risks, to try things, um, to experiment, uh, to launch their own products, to do all these different things that, um, used to be only for the top of the top.

Um, now we can, um, now we can, we can push that down and, and really experiment and do some fun things. And, uh, dude, I'm so appreciative of you and, and, uh, and this conversation has been amazing and, uh, look forward to next place. We can chat, um, before we go, where can people connect with you? If, if you want, if you don't want them contacting you, I completely understand that too, uh, or, uh, and, uh, where can they find out more about it? Well, best place to connect with me is probably on LinkedIn.

Um, yeah, right. Um, there's not many, um, my surname is actually a, uh, a name that goes back in the UK by about 500 years. So there's a dynasty of hard castles. There's not many of us around. So you can find me pretty easily on LinkedIn.

I would love to connect and hear about people. We have a team in the U S which I can, uh, signpost people to as well, um, which is on our website too. So they can, and you've already met nation. There's many others in the team there in the U S that we were happy to engage in, have discussions. And my final kind of parting shot is Ryan.

I I'm a, I'm a great supporter and, and, um, very empathetic for people like you that have built businesses. But at the end of the day, your listeners are going to be comprising a real mixture of other entrepreneurs and founders and more established players. And I guess maybe if we all want to sort of get an extra bit of reassurance, I give you this McKinsey report. McKinsey, no, one's going to argue with McKinsey, right? They did the survey of insure tech and financial services and found that for every $1 for every dollar of new revenue that comes from new products, that's worth twice the enterprise value for every dollar of an existing core product.

So when you think about technology, that's going to enable you to drive new revenues and be innovative, like rogue risk is you need modern technology. You can't use the older platforms. Completely agree. Hey, this has been my absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

I know you're a busy guy and I look forward to the next time we have to chat. It was great to talk to you, Ryan. I look forward to it. Thank you. Close twice as many deals by this time next week.

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