Why Most Leaders Fail: The Danger of Avoiding Honest Conversations

Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. We have a tremendous episode for you today, a conversation with Adrian Kahler, co-founder and senior partner at Take New Ground, a leadership consulting firm. And Adrian talks about leadership in a way that I don't think you're used to. We approach topics from angles that I've never even considered, and the depth and understanding mixed with empathy and energy that Adrian approaches what he does is going to get you leaning forward in your seat. It's gonna get you taking notes and thinking differently about the way you lead your teams.

This is a conversation... This conversation, these are the conversations... This is why I do this podcast, is this conversation right here. I do this podcast to bring you conversations like the one you're about to hear. Enjoy.

The whole reason people do podcasts is for free consulting. Yeah. That's, that's why. Everyone wants to pretend like it's about the audience, but it's really about free consulting. So- Sure ... um, you know, I asked you the question I ask all, uh, guests before they come on.

Is there any- anything that's, like, on your brain that's got you kinda thinking or your wheels spinning? Because as much as I always have a direction, as I told you, I, you know, I, I wanna talk about the shit that you're fired up about. That's, that's- Sure ... what makes this fun. And you had a conversation with one of your clients, and I'd love for you to just maybe break down what you described to me before I told you to s- I yelled at you to stop so that we could- ... get it on air. Uh, just break that conversation down, 'cause I think it's a great place to start.

Sure. Uh, so hey, listeners. Thanks for being here. I'm, uh, Adrian Kahler. Uh, so professionally and just as a passion in life, I have-- I search for the most meaningful conversations to get leaders into effective action.

Um, so but I end up coaching fascinating people from all over the world in all different industries, and the one that Ryan's talking about here is a conversation I had yesterday with a leader who's the brand leader of the fastest growing cosmetic brand in the country. And she, I got connected to her because she's ex-Nike and I coached a bunch of Nike people, and she's elevating and elevating and elevating. And, uh, her boss just said to her yesterday, um, "Make sure you're not mothering your team," her, her executive team. And I had asked her, "Well, did you ask him what he meant by that?" And she said, "No, they kinda laughed it off."

And she just assumed she knew what he meant. And I assume I knew what he meant too, uh, and had lots of commentary about, "Can I please talk to this guy?" Um, 'cause that's, uh, uh, any time somebody speaks in that much metaphor, they're avoiding conversation. So she has some feedback f- or he has some feedback for, is what I would assert. Um, uh, but then it got me thinking, got us in a great conversation about what might be missing in her leadership, 'cause maybe she is overcompensating with the, the, I don't know, more feminine spirit, which is naturally throughout the ages.

This isn't... And everybody's different, right? So don't be offended, but, you know, m- the, the natural maternal spirit, uh, feminine spirit is one that supports and sees and corrals and con- connects and attracts and, you know, protects in a certain way, and usually more emotionally. There, that, you know, as a, as a trend. And the male spirit, masculine spirit, is more challenge, push, direct, vision, protect with fists or tongue, like that.

Um, and we talked a, w- that generated a huge conversation about leadership and what mi- mi- what might be missing for her. And I coach probably 75% men and 25% badass women, and but it does connect into where my commitment is for my clients, which is to be what I call a fierce advocate for them. Um, and sometimes that's what's missing in leadership, is for men, uh, to slow down enough and connect, and usually to share and to even confess and clean up the relational side of the business. They just think the business strategy and the business plan will win the day, and it's not that people... And, and, you know, our commitment at our firm, Take New Ground, you know, we know that people generate all the issues, and people solve all the issues.

And most great leaders, their dysfunction isn't strategic and it's not intellectual. Their dysfunction's relational. So we've got great job security. Um, and we love that. We're all nerds over here, so we're all very tough alpha dudes.

We get that, you know, commentary all the time. But also, we'll talk about very touchy, um, uh, deeply emotional relational context. There's no conver- we say in the room, "There's no conversation too dangerous for us to be in." So, um, anyway, that's, you're asking what's on my mind. I'm just thinking about how men need to slow down and be more vulnerable in general.

Women might need to slow down and say the thing that might, metaphorically speaking, kick the young one out of the nest, you know? M- men's dysfunction is, "Get outta here, and I don't care if you come back." That's dysfunction. Women's dysfunction is, "Stay here forever, and I don't care if you grow." Hmm.

I'm speaking in hyperbole obviously, but there's lots of room in between that, especially if we mold those together, uh, as leaders, which is like, "Hey, I'm gonna connect with you deeply no matter what. Even if you don't work for me, I'm here for you. And if you're gonna work for me, you better have it up to the right trajectory personally." Like, you need to develop yourself and continue to get better, and be ruthlessly connected to current reality, which is always quite frightening for everybody, to, like, put your arms around results. Like, results are the mirror for what I actually intended, not my story about what I intended.

Does that make sense? It makes a lot of sense. Um, I was actually talking to, uh, one of my counterparts. I'm the executive, uh, chief marketing officer for a AI company, and- Cool ... I was talking to one of the executives about, um, in particular, um...

Oh my gosh, I just lost my question. Um- You got it ... uh, well, I'm gonna ask you a different question. The audience knows that I do that sometimes. I'll come back to it. I wanna dig into, before it went, before I, before I come back to where I was going there, you said something that just absolutely captured me.

When someone speaks in metaphor, they're avoiding. Can you dive into that while I try to re-rack my brain for the other question that I wanted to ask you? No, no problem. Well, uh, language always has intention, al- always, 100%. So we never say anything or don't say anything on accident.

So I'll try not to get lost here in some philosophical, but it's good to put a framework up here. So in my world, I'm always paying attention to a handful of things. One is this formula. I'm guessing your audience loves formulas, so here's a formula for you guys. P + E + O over C = transformation.

So P is patterns, E is emphasis, O is omission, over context. Context is vision, goals, whatever, like what we're actually up to. Patterns, emphasis, omission over context equals transformation. So, um, when someone speaks in generalities, they're avoiding something. So when they speak in generalities, what they're doing is trying to, there's so many ideas here, mesmerize the person with an unknown statement that means whatever they want it to mean, and it's a gesture towards what they're meaning.

And so let's just say we both like the Bills. And it's not specific what I mean by that, but we... You know, you're from that, that part of the country. Yep. And it's like, "Yeah, we both like the Bills."

Okay, cool. But we might actually have very different opinions about what's good and what's bad about them and where they're going in the future and what I hate about the Bills and blah, blah, blah. We might have tons of differences, but I don't wanna get close to it because I'm gonna romance you with my gesture towards what you like. And so it's anytime I'm, I hide in generalities, is another way of saying it, that's safer up here. It's e- politics is an easy way to look at this, you know.

This is not a political statement, but make America great again. Wonderful. Who doesn't think that's great? Of course. That's awesome.

Now, chunk that down, and people start to fall off the wagon at some point- Mm-hmm ... in the funnel, if you will. So, uh, there is danger in specificity. There's safety in generality. That's my point. And I could think of 100 me- 100 reasons why that's true.

Yeah, I love that. You know, um, on the show, I refer to what you just described as glazing, right? We like to just put a little glaze on what we're trying to say to make it seem shiny and nice, but we never wanna dig in. Um, I figured out what I wanted to ask you, or at least get your take on. Uh, we were talking internally about, uh, this particular thing with our sales team and how the story...

Uh, I, I f- I saw this stat online, I think maybe Simon Sinek had shared it, um, that we feel 90% of the win in announcing the thing that we're going, in announcing the goal- Right ... without ever hitting the goal. Right. So by announcing the goal, we're actually capturing all the dopamine and all the positive emotion that comes with hitting the goal- Right ... and we haven't even done the work yet. Yes. And what we were, and, and the conversation we were having internally was around it's okay to have these goals, but I don't wanna hear about what you're going to do.

I wanna see what you did to get there. Right. And, you know, re- reframing the conversation in that way, um, so that we're actually looking at real activity, not this activity that we're going to do someday which will get us to this goal that we think sounds really good so that we all feel great about ourselves. Yes. And I guess my question for you that I wanted to actually ask was how, how do you go about coaching someone through this? 'Cause I've seen this to be pervasive through entire organizations from, you know, CEOs of large companies all the way down to entry-level individuals.

They'll tell you all the things they wanna do, and then they f- struggle with the motivation to do the activities to hit the goal because they already feel great about the fact that they set this goal that makes them feel awesome. Yeah. Well, we call that the despair of possibility. So, yes, it's a dopamine hit to say the future's gonna be better, right? That's just what a lot of people would call hope.

Um, and you can get elected on hope, um, to presidency. That's happened before, and it works because everybody wants to say, "Hey, today sucks. Tomorrow's gonna be better. Follow me." And that's what we do when we stand up and say, "Yeah, this quarter's tough, this economy's tough, but just follow me to the future."

And there's, we need that as humans. We need that. Without... There's an old, I forget where this is in the Torah, but, uh, without vision, the people perish, this kind of concept. Mm-hmm.

Yet we do know that if a declaration in the future without commitment is empty, and it's despair because we know it's a trick. We know it's a here's-a-shiny-object, let's, let us trick the masses into saying the future's gonna be better. We know it at a intrinsic level. Like, our bodies know it even before our brains do, right? 'Cause we're used to finding tricksters. We've, we've been trained to do this over the eons.

So, um, your question was how do I work with folks. Well, there's, that's a big distinction. So first, you must be willing to declare something into the future, like make a promise. That's what transforms reality is make a promise. Like, "Here's what I'm com- here's, this is what's gonna happen."

And every great leader does that, stands up and says, "That's the hill we're going for." Um, but there's a distinction between promise and commitment. So promise is to go forth w- and from a etymological... And I'm a nerd, so let me nerd out for a second. I'm etymologically- Nerd out ... prom- promise me is to go forth, um, which is important.

I'm gonna go to that hill. Commitment is to go with, so prometere, commetere, to go with. Like, I am with my word, which is the distinction you're talking about. So I will do no matter what. Whatever it takes to get there, that's what I'm going to do.

So I'm gonna make a plan, and I'll prove to you my promise by making a plan, and then watch me walk my plan. And by the way, if it's not, um, if it's not working, I will know because I am my word. It's not like I'm gonna say I'm gonna do this, and then if it didn't work out, I'll come up with 10 reasons, which is what most people do. It was the economy. It was the stupid team.

It was the competition. It was my family member that died, whatever. Fill in the blank about what external, uh, you know, circumstance generated my failure, which is what the human mind is apt to do, is be a victim to circumstance. But if you're heroic, then you say, "Oh, I, I form my circumstances around my commitment." That's what heroes do, right?

Y- yes, most people won't do that. They can, but they won't. Heroes decide to do it anyway. So the... If when I'm working with people, what usually is missing is a...

If they are deeply connected to the future, like we're talking about, like I'm clear about where I'm going and where we're going, that's necessary. But most... That's, that's kinda easy, and it's very satiating. It's like eating Skittles. It's great, you know- Mm-hmm ... for short term.

Skittles are wonderful. Ask my kids. They love it. Um, and then, but what they don't do is get equally connected and committed to current reality, like a knowledge of, a deep understanding of what's happening now. Because if they don't do the math on what generated these results that aren't as good as the one we say we're going to, but if I'm unwilling to put my arms around how I created the crap we're in now, then I, no matter what, will create crap in the future because I am a pattern.

And if I'm not que- if I don't question myself as a pattern, I will naturally do what my pattern does, right? So I might have a great vision, have a great plan, but burn people out. That's what got me here. That's what will happen in the future because I am that pattern. So people aren't willing because it's more vulnerable, and it takes more humility to own current reality and, furthermore, own how each person around the table co-created what we have.

We tend to like to peg it on somebody, and it was the CEO or the CFO or the CSO or the CMO like you or whatever, and it was that person instead of, oh, no, no, every meeting I was in, I created the outcome, even if it wasn't my meeting. So if a team is willing to take that level of ruthless, rigorous responsibility, then we've got a whole ballgame. Then nothing can stop 'em. If I'm listening to this, and I look out over my team and my... and the table that we sit at and talk for, you know, and I don't see that, right? I see the finger-pointing.

I see, well- Right ... this was Steve's job or Tammy's job or Sally Sue's or whoever, and they're the reason why this project didn't get completed, and I have that finger-pointing going on- Yeah ... how do I start to break down that culture to get to where, to get to what you're describing? You call me. I mean, that's what... You don't have to call me. Call somebody, um, because you're in the culture.

So it's h- first off, it is hard to do surgery on yourself, and most people won't. And, uh, to be honest, most of us can't, including the guy talking right now because I am so entrenched in my thinking, and n- not a lot of our thinking is novel. Most of it's wired into us. And so it's really hard, you know... There's an old, there's an old transformational saying that, you know, you gotta get outside the box, but the instructions to get outside the box are on the outside of the box.

So you need to get some feedback and the... and that's... there, there's, uh... that's horrific for us as human beings because we're very, without even thinking about it, we wake up into the world egomaniacs, that I am a certain way. This is who I am, and this is who you are. And T- yeah, it's, it is Tammy, and that, even that thinking of, like, judgment and contempt and superiority and victimization, that's just built into the human brain. That's not... We don't get a vote on that.

That's just gravity for us. So we call it survival needs, looking good, feeling good, being right, being in control. That's gravity. Now, you can get past that. You can get beyond that or maybe even stand on that, is the metaphor we'd really use, because that's not going anywhere, but we can l- look out from that view and then see something.

So to more succinctly answer your question, you start with yourself and say, how, okay, what's here? And get real about what's here. What are the dynamics, and can I get language around them? You must put language around dynamics. That's the first thing is language is the...

Language gives us handles for reality, and we all have a sense of what's happening, and w- but we all have different language for what's happening. So if I'm running the show, if I'm the CEO, if I'm answering the question like that, then I gotta work to get language around the current dynamics. And we've got tons of frameworks for this, by the way, but, um, this'll just give the bullet points. Get language for it. Now, think about if nothing changes, what'll happen next?

And, and, and walk all that all the way out. We call that the parade of horribles. So if this doesn't shift, what's gonna happen? You gotta walk it all the way to death, essentially, of the company, maybe even people, everybody gets fired, including you, and public ridicule, and, you know, kids run away, and they're blah, blah, blah. Be like, let it get dirty, um, 'cause the human brain moves five times faster to escape hell than to pursue heaven.

We know that So you gotta let it get bad. 'Cause it is true. Something like that is true, that if I don't transform this, which might be shut the company down, it might be fire everybody, uh, but anyway, there's lots of layers in between. But if I don't transform this, hell's coming, and I... You have to motivate myself to shift because nothing has worked up until now. That's what we know.

That we let it get here on purpose, not on accident. There are payoffs for it being dysfunctional. These are types of thinking that people don't do. 'Cause people say, "It's dysfunctional and I hate it," but they don't mean it. Like, they mean it to themselves, but it's not true is what I really mean by that. It's dysfunctional and I love it.

How do I know that? Because it's dysfunctional. And if I say, "How long has it been this way?" They'll say, "Oh, shit, three years." And I'll say, "Great.

This is what you like." And they'll say, "No, it's not." And I'll say, "Prove it to me." And they don't have an answer because they've tolerated it up until now. So there are payoffs to the dysfunction.

Have I lost you? Are we good? No. No, you haven't lost me. The opposite.

These are my favorite episodes. I have, like- Uh ... 4,000 different directions- ... that I wanna go. Um- So let, let me finish. I was just making sure.

Sometimes I get too philosophical- Yeah ... or too- No, I love it ... way out there and I lose people. So anyway, this is the type of rigorous honesty that someone must take on to transform. Like, and transform is very distinct from making something better, if that makes sense. We don't want incremental change. We wanna transform the thing.

So to transform it, the only thing that generates transformation is someone's willingness to take rigorous responsibility for current reality, and to be willing to own that and still be hopeful and still be clear about what they're committed to, like the phoenix from the ashes type idea. Like, okay, it's that bad, and I can still choose tomorrow who I am right now. Like, choose for tomorrow. Like, it's... It will get better because I will transform.

And if a leader that stands up and does that can shift a whole room. There's a reason why they don't, and there's a reason why I don't at times, because that takes guts and I have to be willing to die, like, figuratively and, you know, whatever, maybe financially, maybe I get fired, maybe blah, blah, blah. Like, you know, there's a lot of risk in there. But if you're willing to die, then you can... You know, it's like that bit...

My dad's watching Band of Brothers here. I'm home for Thanksgiving. Um, and, uh, there's a famous scene from Band of Brothers where the sergeant over the... or the lieutenant, the good-looking guy is, and he's in the foxhole with the new guy, and he's, and he... the new guy's, like, literally pissing his pants. You remember this scene? And he says, "Oh, I've, uh, you...

The problem is you haven't died yet," or something like that. Like, the guy already was ready to die, therefore, he could go win the battle, that type of idea. Yeah. So if you take personal rigorous honesty and do a real clear accounting, and then open that up as a leader like, "Hey, guys, this is horrible. I know it's horrible.

I know you guys hate each other." I just did this in a meeting with a client, like, th- this, this clearly, this rigorously. I said to them, I said, "Hey, if I'm involved, we're gonna transform this culture, and some of you don't want the health you say you want, and you need to go back home and think about it because you're used to dysfunction, and health is gonna require a lot more from you than the dysfunction has." And then they were like, you know, arguing with me for a while, but they got it at a deep level and they were all nodding by the end. They're like, "Oh, yeah.

Okay, I'm gonna have to be honest now. I used to be able to hide and gossip. Now I have to be honest." So as a leader, if you're willing to do that, take rigorous honesty, have all the conversations you've been avoiding, set the standard moving forward for yourself first and then other people, um, and then you don't avoid anything moving forward. Like, like, results are a manifestation of conversation, always.

So it, it all comes back to the conversational level, and most leaders would rather not talk about the issues, just 'cause we're humans, and a lot because we're dudes. Um, at least the guys struggle with this more than the women. The women are just better at it, trained. It's more socially acceptable to talk about relational stuff and emotional stuff for women. Uh, so there's some bigger climb for guys, but that's why I like working with alpha guys, because there's a lot of unlocks that are pretty quick and very rapid, and, uh, it... there's a lot of freedom for them.

How much do you think the fluid nature of language in our current environment impacts this? And I, and I know I've even felt this myself, where I, I tend to n- be okay unintentionally offending p- someone, if I'm being honest with them, and I don't mean that to be hurtful, just- Sure ... trying to say like it is. But, but I struggle with it as well, where so much of what we say today may not mean the same thing. Words have different meanings. Words are taken out of context.

And I have friends that I talk to in leadership positions, and they'll share that they're not even sure... They may want to say may... They may honestly... All the things you said. They may be willing to die, they may want the change, and they, and they, and they're willing to do the work.

They literally don't know how to put the words together to communicate the message, not because they don't know what words they want to say, but they're worried that the words they say are gonna mean different things or be taken in a way that they don't mean, and now all of a sudden they're gonna find themselves in a situation that is, that is not even... You know, not in trouble for addressing the problem, but in trouble for addressing the problem in a way that didn't match a HR requirement or... You know, how do we, how do we work past some of like, you know, uh, uh, some of the woke nature that our... so many organizations have found themselves in? Wow. Well, this is a whole day long conversation, um- Hmm ... because there's a lot here.

You have 29 minutes. That's... I'm joking. So- But you do ... yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's why I'm taking my time with where to begin.

So, uh, you noticed even as you described it, a lot of it was fear, and that's okay. And it's- Mm-hmm ... uh, you know, how... 'Cause the question isn't how do I say what's true for me, the, the- The question is, for the person naturally, is how do I say it so they get what I mean? Yes. Right? And that's impossible.

So the meaning of any conversation is in the listener, not in the speaker. We know that neurologically. The meaning of every communication is in the m- is in the ears of the listener. So people do use this framework though to avoid conversations. Like, "I don't know how to say this so that Susie hears it this way."

Yes. And they use that to keep avoiding, and therefore they are having the conversation with her. The conversation though is, "It's not worth the fight." That's the conversation they're having. "Y- you're so sensitive," this is the c- other conversation they're having.

"You're so sensitive, I can't say what I want." So it's condescension. Mm. "You are so immature, we can't talk about it." That's what that's also saying.

Now I'm being a little, uh, bombastic maybe or dramatic, but it's pretty close to what's true, um, just to make the point. But that's also... So, you know, "Nature abhors a void," says Peterson, right? So if you, if you don't say something, the conversation's still happening, it just, the one you say you want isn't happening. It's not the one you actually want, 'cause you actually do exactly what you really want.

So not having it, avoiding it with all your 55 reasons why I can't, that's the conversation that's there. So, so I come at it from that premise. Um, sec- so you- but you can't manage someone else's thoughts, but you can obviously influence them. I know that's your background as a sales guy, marketing guy, is you do wanna influence. But the best thing to do is to say, I...

Here's what I would advise and here's what I tell myself, is, "There's some things I need to talk about, I wanna talk about, I think we need to talk about. I don't know how to say 'em, and it's real slippery, and there's landmines all over it in the culture. So can we tap dance for a while and give ourselves some grace? 'Cause I wanna kind of describe for you what I'm experiencing, and I hope we have enough grace to really hear each other. So we're gonna go real slowly, not 'cause we're idiots, but because these are touchy subjects. And try to make sure we understand each other, and really understand where each other's coming from in..."

Which is always the conversation people are having as well. Like when we're listening to someone, like if I'm listening to you, Ryan, I'm gonna be in, uh, also several other conversations at the same time. Do I like Ryan? Do I trust Ryan? Do I believe him?

Does he... Is he here f- is he an enemy or a friend? Does he have my best interest at heart? Does he understand me? What's he think about me?

And all my insecurities are gonna fly up. Like, all that's gonna be happening at the same time just because we have so much RAM available in our brains, right? So we need to put language on that context and clarify where I'm coming from and the point of the conversation, because we're gonna get lost in the content and we're gonna lose the context. Does that make sense? So there's lots of ways to have it, but you gotta be willing to have it poorly in order to have it well.

I love that you used the term grace. Yes. I feel like, uh, it's a core component to having a conversation with anyone. Right. And we've lost so much of that.

I- It's what we all want ... that's- It's what we all need ... um, it, you know, I, I, it's funny, I'm working on, this is out of context, but I'm working on a arm sleeve. Cool. I have my shoulder to my elbow done. Awesome. And, um, uh, uh, um, it's not fully in context of the Biblical quote, but, um, I, I just was working with my, with my tattoo artist.

I'm gonna have grace upon grace put right on my forearm- Yeah ... where I can see it as a, as a reminder to myself, right? 'Cause so much of communicating is, is actually hearing the feedback that you get post what you say, right? Yeah. We, we say something to someone, and then, you know, we wanna be heard so badly and we, we barf our thing onto them. Right. And then we don't do for them what we wanted them to do for us.

Right on. And, and it's like we want grace from them, but we then don't give them the grace to have the response, you know, like you said, right? They're gonna hear it however they hear it regardless of- Right ... what you say. Yeah. And we have to be just as willing as leaders a- and as communicators to take that feedback and give them grace for their response, it w- be it- Right ... poor or angry or depressed or disappointed or, or excited, you know?

Whatever that- Right ... whatever that feedback is. Um, and, and- Right on ... do you have a, a, a method, and, and I just wanna stay on grace for a second, a method of, or philosophy, format, formula for cultivating more grace in ourselves? Is it a, a, a daily- Sure ... reminder? Is it maybe meeting prep? I know one of the things I did, I, I had a very poor meeting.

Poorest meet- one of the poorest meetings I've ever had. Uh, it was a very important meeting, I knew it was coming. And before that meeting, I think it was at like 10:00, I had three negative client interactions, three problems that as the CEO of the company, at the, I was CEO of this particular company, it was a company I founded, um, and exited from. But, um, uh, I had three client situations I had to deal with, uh, that I had- Right ... to be involved in and come down and deal with. And, you know, my head is swirling, I have some frustration for things that weren't done or things that were said that shouldn't have been said, et cetera.

And I roll into this meeting full steam with- Yeah ... zero prep, and I just blew it. I mean, I just went- Yeah ... about as poorly as it could've gone- Makes sense ... and it was all me. And, um, and what I then just did from that point on and forever was build a 10-minute or 5-minute, if I don't have the time, period to kinda reset myself and say, "Okay." I'm coming into this meeting, here's the point, right? And one of those things that I say, especially when I know it's gonna be maybe just, like, a, something beyond a tactical conversation, is I literally will say to myself, "Grace upon grace."

It's why I'm tattooing them at Grace Upon Grace. Give yourself grace, give them grace, whatever. But it's not an easy thing. It's a ver- it's a, it's a, it's a simple concept, but a very tough concept I find sometimes to internalize. How, how do you recommend leaders work on that aspect of themselves?

Yeah. Man, I love your questions. Or do you? Uh, maybe it... And do you?

Sure. Uh, yeah. Um, there's, like, a couple f- main things that come to mind, um, personally and then kind of scientifically. So... And I'm a grace guy.

Just background for people listening, I, I was a pastor for several years. I'm a nerd ball. I have a master's in theology. I, I, uh, I was just in this conversation in my kitchen with my son, my 10-year-old son, 'cause I also have a very storied past. You know, I've got...

Could rip the paint off these walls with my scandals and my, you know, over-drinking in my first marriage, and my womanizing, and, um, very unfaithful, uh, to my first wife, and just a mess, right? I was doing what a person that's a mess does to deal- Mm-hmm ... with the mess internally, right? So I needed grace. So I'm not, like, a got it together guy. I'm not a got it together coach, and let me tell you the five things because I figured it out.

Yes, I do have some pretty cool idea- or helpful ideas that have been helpful to me. Um- You're in good company- And I'm- ... my friend. You're in good company. Right on. Don't worry.

Anyway, so I, uh, all that to say, I don't have any shame about that. And I feel like- Good ... I feel the potential, whatever, those even saying all that, but it's also I've forgiven myself, right? So- Mm-hmm. Um, and but, you know, I...

As I'm talking to my kids, I walk with, walk this, you know, walk through this with them because I want them to understand why mom and dad aren't together anymore, and it's not just all me either, of course. Um- Mm. But I also am never gonna throw their mom under the bus, uh- Mm-hmm ... ever, uh, as a commitment. And so anyway, just in the kitchen with my son, I was just saying, "Hey, man, we're all, we all tell the truth, and we all lie." We do.

And if you meet someone that says they always tell the truth, run from them because they're lying. That's a lie. Everybody lies. Mm-hmm. Not like we're sh- not like we should lie, but our nature is to protect oneself, and so we will lie or at least not tell the whole truth to do that.

And we ought not. That there, the... We will pay the price. Like, with- consequences are always coming for every lie, and I've got those stories. And, um, but so we're always this mixed bag of telling the truth and not telling the truth.

And, and as soon as you're honest about your deception, you're now an honest person. It's weird. Like, you know. So all that to say, with the grace concept, um, you know, I am what I'm committed to. I'm not what I've been, and that's tough 'cause f- you know, Freudian psychology's the opposite of that.

Freud said, and everybody bit it hook, line, and sinker, that I am etiological, he called it, right? I am the effect. My history is the cause. And that's just not true, uh- Mm-hmm ... unless you want it to be true. If you want it to be true, it's 100% true, and I'm, I'm dysfunctional 'cause of my dad and my mom and where I grew up and my color of my skin, and my so- blah, blah, blah.

Y- that can all be true for you if you want, but it's not true. It's just real for you. Um, so grace is no ma- even though all that is so, like, that happened. I made those decisions. I'm not that person.

That's, for me, that's what grace is. I am forgiven. I forgive myself. I'm a God guy. Uh, and then whoever wanted to forgave me.

If they didn't want to, God bless them, uh, but I've forgiven myself. I don't need anybody else's forgiveness to forgive myself. That's what grace is. And I'll move forward and see those mistakes that I made, choices I made, as fuel for the future that I'm committed to, and I don't run from any of it. It's all real.

So now, this is a... I'll start with, uh, I'll start with how we deal with clients 'cause that was a question. There is a contextual part of this, like, the view of self, and I won't... I could do five hours on this, but I'll do one minute. We actually use this leadership assessment tool that only 150 of us in the States have access to called the Harrison Assessment.

Um, I won't nerd out on it now, but there's reasons why we choose it. It talks about the self. It, uh, it, it generates these paradoxes. So this is, the self is a paradox. So we're all in a conversation about self-improvement and who, and who I can be.

We're all in that conversation. Even if it's I can be no one, that is the conversation. And then we're also in a conversation about self-acceptance. I'm okay where I am. We're in that, and those are a paradox.

I'm okay where I am, and I'm not gonna stay here. I'm gonna improve. That is a, it's always happening at the same time, a paradox. And if I'm really okay where I am and don't have any view of self-acceptance, you know, I'm ignorant and arrogant, right? 'Cause I'm good, and that's dan- that's a dangerous person. If I'm, like, probably like you, like me, like most high-striving people, really committed to self-improvement and lower on self-acceptance, I'm self-critical.

And when the stress comes up, like your story about your meeting, if I'm self-critical, to naturally deal with the criticism of I'm the CEO, and I had these three negative client interactions, and I'm, "Why am I a piece of crap?" And, "Why are my people this?" And, "Why is this cl-," da, da, da, da, but it's... But you're, you have a... I can tell integrity matters to you, and definitely how you, uh, and as a person, how you look matters to you, and your impact on others matters to you.

You're gonna naturally be self-critical. Now, to deal with that, we become defensive, and that's what you did, I'm guessing, in the meeting, in the- Yes ... subsequent meeting. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We, we- Basically, it was one of those conversations, to give you context to how bad it was, it was one of those conversations where I basically pulled the ultimate no-no for a leader, which was just- ... fucking do what I say.

Like- Right ... I can't listen to the excuses. I can't listen to your reasons. Like, we have to get this hill taken, and everything you're saying to me is, is nonsense- Noise ... to taking the hill Noise Like, just fucking do it. And that, that statement, and I know...

Like, literally as it was coming out of my mouth, dude, I, like, the other part of me is going, "What are you saying?" But the- Yeah ... the, the, the, the bad version, the, the, the- Sure ... devil side of me is just- Yeah ... had full control in that moment. Right on. And, you know- Yep ... it was like... You're like...

It's like watching a car... It was like watching a car wreck in slow motion. And as soon as- ... I hit end on the Zoom meeting, I am... I was like, I, I, I knew every mistake I had made.

I knew it was not... You know, I'm like, "That's not who you are," blah, blah, blah. Like, I literally... You know, I don't coach or, or, or have clients like you do, but I have done some coaching. Yeah.

And like, this is like- Sure ... 101 leadership. Like, never tell them- Yeah ... just do their fucking job. Just shut the fuck up Like, never say that term ever. It's...

Yeah. That's right. Oh my God. Yeah, it was so bad. It was so bad.

Yeah, it was so bad, but also, man, just so human, right? I mean, you were being honest. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's what you really wanted, but you know, you knew it wouldn't work.

Yes. And you knew you were just your primal self or your shadow self, whatever Jung would call it, that it, it was not gonna work, and maybe do some irreparable damage. Uh, so... But we all go to defense, and usually defense looks like being blunt. Usually goes to, you know, strong-arming.

Goes to, um... You know, these are all these flips on this... I'm going through the graphs in my head. Yeah. But we go all...

We all go there just to defend ourselves. So now, uh, so that's a cool assessment. I can send you the assessment. We could talk through it. It's really great.

Um, now but on, on a personal front, I know if I'm... If I have... I mean, for a whole era, like after I left that first marriage, um, I got sober and did all this stuff and turned my life around. Um, but what I used to do to ground myself, which is what I... My language for what you're talking about, how do I ground myself?

Well, I've go- gotta get clear on what matters to me no matter what, and how do I get myself out of the mood that I find myself in, whether it's elation or whether it's deprivation, whatever it is, and find the most healthy mood that's the most, I would call it, generative, right? So I can be really clear, be really straight with someone, and be really loving simultaneously. Back to the first part of the conversation, both masculine and feminine. Um, how do I do that? For me, I used to literally write on my thumb GHG on my thumb every morning for about two years.

Why did I do that? GHG stamp stood for three things: grateful, honest, and generous. Mm. And it was a, it was a icon for me to know, oh, that's home for me. I'm grateful, meaning I'm not gonna be at all...

I'm, I'm not at all interested in self-pity. Whatever's here is beautiful. Not like fantasy land. It's... First off, I can s- start with wherever we are.

If someone is blowing it, I can start there, and I will start there. That's the only, only place to start anyway is to start there, and I'm grateful for it. I'm grateful for this opportunity. I'm the leader. I employ this person.

I feed their family, help them feed their family, however you wanna say it. And they're struggling, obviously, based on results. They're struggling, and I'm called to this moment in time. This is cool. I'm the guy, the right guy for the job.

Why? I'm the guy in the job. So I'm grateful for it. Honest, which has been more of, especially at that time, was more of a struggle for me. N- I mean, I had, you know, been... lied to lots of people, but I also most importantly lied to myself.

Like, I was unwilling to have thousands of conversations, which is why I got in such a bad spot in my own life. So honest really means full self-expression. I'm gonna say what's there for me. I might not know what's there for me, but I'm gonna explore what's there for me, uh, with them. Man, I'm gonna take a shot.

I'm not gonna hide. Not gonna be a doormat, not gonna be a strong arm. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be real with what's there for me. Even the confusion, I'll just put language to the confusion, 'cause it's probably similar to what they're feeling. If I'm the leader and I'm confused, you better believe they're confused.

Probably worse. They're probably really resentful, uh, because I'm paid to be clear. Uh, and then generous. Maybe the most important. I don't know.

But I'm here to make a difference for them. I'm here to make an impact for them, period. And it doesn't matter who, who they are with me. They could be angry and full of shit and whatever. That's cool.

I'll start there. "Man, you're struggling. I think you're..." I said this to a client last week. "I think you're lying to me, and that's okay.

I've lied before. Can we talk about it?" You know, so being generous, uh, and obviously, I mean as a way of being, not just like giving money and that kind of stuff, but to be a- Yeah ... generous being. So that's one of the ways I do it, uh, have done it in the past, still do it, you know? Or it might even be shorter than that.

I remember in key moments in my life, I would just have little mantras to myself, like I'm a gift, I'm a gift, I'm a gift, I'm a gift. Um, you know, so it is great to have that space, and it makes sense you created some space for yourself to kinda re-ground yourself. I tell my clients that all the time, 'cause we have got, you know, sessions that are set up throughout the month. But I said, "You just call me. About to walk into a big meeting, call me.

I'll be your, you know... I'll be... I'm your corner man." That's the metaphor- Yeah ... I always use, is let's get yourself straight so you don't mess that up.

N- 'cause not all moments are the same, right? Some moments are worth millions of dollars. Some are just worth nothing, cost you a million dollars. So, but the ones that you need to be there for, you better get your head straight. And don't, don't, don't...

And don't... Last thing I'll say is don't give your future to your whims. Give your future to your commitments. I, uh, you know, one of the things I think is interesting is we often don't know the value of a particular meeting. We may walk- Well- ... into a meeting, right, and think that it's a everyday run-of-the-mill tactical meeting, and if, if we're not thinking clearly, as you said, if we're not honest, if we're not present, if we're not direct and clear in what we're trying to say- You don't know that something someone hears in that meeting could put them on a path, it could create resentment for them, and they start to disassociate.

Yeah. There's so many things that can happen if we don't approach each one of these situations as if, right? Right on. It doesn't, it may not be for the million-dollar sale, as you said, like on paper, but it could be for the million-dollar sale six months from now- Right on ... in, in terms of how you approach it. And, and there's this, you know, going back to some of what you said, there's...

This example's gonna sound trite, but, but it, it, it's been, it was meaningful to me in, in so much as, uh, the, the example is maybe a little ludicrous. But, um, in the most recent, uh, Deadpool Wolverine movie, there's one scene that I find to be very deep. Uh, the movie, for the most part, is exactly what you would expect from a Deadpool Wolverine movie, if you haven't seen it. But- It's awesome ... which is fine. Yeah.

Gratuitous action and comedy. But there is one, like, v- fairly deep moment that I think i- it actually I've, I've internalized a little bit, and it's, uh, a moment where kind of the hero, in this case Wolverine, is pulling back. Uh, in, in this scenario, this version of multiverse version of Wolverine is, like, the worst Wolverine of all the Wolverines, right? That's, that's kind of the scenario. And, uh, the young, um, the, the young girl that in a previous movie he had protected and, and, and, and died for to, in order to, to allow her to save, and this is a Wolverine from another multiverse.

This, hopefully this makes sense to everyone listening if they haven't seen these movies. It gets a little screwy. But he says to her, "I'm not the guy." Hmm. And as she's walking away, she stops and turns back at him and looks and says, "You were never the right guy."

And what that said to me was, if you're in the seat, regardless of what you feel about yourself- Right ... you are the person for that thing. Right. Like, you don't have to believe, but everybody else believes, 'cause you're in the seat. Right. And if, if there's nothing else, that can give you power, it can give you confidence, it can give you clarity on what you're supposed to do.

You can, you know- Yeah ... none of us are the right guy or gal, right? Yeah. There is no right guy or gal, which is really the point. There's no right- Right ... person. There's no...

It's can you be the thing that you need to be in that moment to achieve the goal that needs to get done? And sometimes that's, you know, being more masculine. Sometimes that's being more feminine. And most of the time it's having some ability to intermingle the two in whatever appropriate mix makes sense to execute the mission. And, and my question out of this diatribe is, many of us stay surface, right?

Mm-hmm. We find ourselves in these places because it, it... You said something that, that I wrote down that I've been waiting to come back to. Specificity is dangerous. Yeah.

And I think the reason we stay shallow and we stay high level is because if we crack the surface and try to become more, what if more of me still isn't good enough? Right. And when you approach people, and with all your background in, in theology, and I, I'm obviously a believer too, my tattoo is the American flag with an inset cross. Um, I'm just, I firmly believe in, in, in, have a very strong relationship with God. But how do we work through that mindset as leaders?

Because to me, to get to all this depth that you've discussed, right, we have to be willing to take that first step, which is being okay with trying harder and having, and still being okay if we fail. Yeah. Wow. You're right in my wheelhouse. This is what I care about.

This is why I do this work, uh, because it's primal. Um, like everybody. There's this quote that a client of mine told me, I think it's a Don Miller quote, if you know Don. Mm-hmm. Uh, I think it's Don.

Maybe he was quoting somebody else, but he said, "We all..." Something like, "We all y- yearn to be fully known and to be loved anyway." Um, obviously alluding to the fact there's shit in all of us that we don't want to be public, and we're scared to death of, and we're, we're irredeemed still and all those things, and the, the, the devils we fight in our private lives and, and things we're unwilling to, to face and we're all, we all have that. All of us. Every single human, I would assert, has that.

Um, and that's what we're dying to say and dying to have heard, and then someone to look us in the eye and say, "Hey, I'm with you. You're okay. Love you anyway." 'Cause for me, that's the voice of God. Um, that's the most beautiful thing about the whole redemption story is that, "Oh, yeah, you are. You are.

It's worse than you think, and you're loved more than you can imagine." That just gives me goosebumps, 'cause we're all dying for that. I know I am. Um, it's become popular, this imposter syndrome, uh, framework, become popular because this is it, right? This is the what if they, what if they think of me like I actually privately think of myself?

Um, and then people say they suffer from imposter syndrome. They don't. We just have language for it now that helps me know what I'm still avoiding and helps me know the risk I'm still unwilling to take. So I, you can tell all my language is always hyper-responsible, so it comes off maybe kind of harsh. Um, I don't mean it that way, but, uh, honest truth is always like, you know, harsh.

It's tough. It cuts us, and that's the point of it, is it's here for us, to mold us. So to answer your question, if someone is in this context, and I kind of reconfigure the question, there are parts of us that- Well, a handful of things. First off, whatever confession you end up making, whatever you say to your group, I always say like the leader's confession is he's the last one to the party. Everybody knows.

Whatever you like are going to say to your group or say to your team that seems so vulnerable to you, they talk about it already. Trust me. They know it. They, you know, so you're the last one to the party. Whatever you're going to decide to finally own in public, they've known it for a long time.

So that's relieving kind of. It's kind of not relieving. Um, but I would say that, that like your impact speaks more than your intentions. Um, so, but you'll be more free. And this is how, this is I think the leadership into the next generation.

The more honest a leader is, the more magnetic they will be, which is different than the more impressive the leader is, the more magnetic they will be. That's previous generations. This, the future generations are just dying for an honest conversation because the world is weirder and weirder and tougher and tougher for them. Um, and that's a whole day long seminar about why I say that's true. But, um, so the more honest you can be will be, because it's always never an ability.

It's always a willingness. Because can you be sure? Are you willing to be is the only question that matters. And that's is, is am I willing to take the gamble that if I'm honest, they won't run? If I'm honest, will they get closer?

Like if we have the conflict, will there be more trust or less? That's up for grabs, but it is 100% connected to who you are and how you are in the conflict. So it's hard for me to put this in a thimble here, but, um, we all wrestle with this. And the more that you're willing even to describe the wrestling, the more people are going to open up with you. And if you want to build a thriving culture, this is all connected to results.

There's money and, and then there are hills. Um, because the more honest someone can be with what their real experience is, both of themselves and what they make up about others and what they make up about clients in the market, if you can get to that core conversation, not everybody's paid to be a coach or a psychologist, don't go be that. But you need to have language for how to engage with people at their root level. That's how you shift people. You get beyond the symptoms and into the real causal issues.

And it's easier than you think. It's just more dangerous. And you know it's dangerous. That's why you've not been doing it. But most of us aren't trained in how to do it.

And that's why people love to have us around or people like us around because we give them the shortcuts to it. So it's always necessary. And this is why, you know, leaders suffer in silence, that whole thing, or it's lonely at the top. That's because of this. Because we get to a place where we feel like we've been selling our persona for so long, we've lost who we are as a person.

So anyway, I think it's a, it's a brilliant question. And I don't know if I answered it very well, but there's a lot in there. Adrian Koehler, my friends, this has been phenomenal. I could do three more hours with you- Let's do it ... uh, and, and keep going. Uh, appreciate the hell out of you.

Real quick, uh, if people are interested, if they, if they do want to work with you, they do want to learn more about your world or just, just be around your content and what you do, how do they get in touch with you? Uh, where should they go? The company's Take New Ground, takenewground.com. Um, you can follow me, message me on Instagram, Adrian.K on Instagram. Those are the two easiest ways.

And love to talk with anybody. Awesome. Anybody in your world, love your vibe, man. Love where you're coming from. Love your heart.

We, we're, we could be best friends. Um, so anybody in your world, I'm interested in giving some time to just explore and help support people. So if you're wondering if it's worth it, it is. So reach out. I appreciate the hell out of you.

Thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks, man.