AI agents are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails, and rewind mistakes so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI transformation at rubrik.com.
That's R-U-B-R-I-K dot com. Hey, this is Michael Rosenbaum. Hey, guys. Tom Welling. Um, look, we've both played heroes.
And, uh, we both played villains. But in the real life, there are no reshoots, no stuntmen, or sequels. We all make mistakes. We're all human. Making one bad decision can not only land you in jail, but could also put yourself and other people around you in serious risk.
Be smart, make a plan, catch a ride, stay put. Don't let a high moment turn into a lifetime of regret. This holiday season, be your own hero. If you feel different, you drive different. Drive high, get a DUI.
Paid for by NHTSA. Happy holidays. Want to give your host a gift? Consider subscribing, rating, and reviewing the show this holiday season. It really helps the show grow.
From all of us at Believe, have a Merry Christmas, everyone, and a happy holiday. Let's go. Yeah. Make it look, make it look, make it look easy. Hey, stand up guy born ten tall.
Welcome to, welcome back to the show. Today we have a tremendous episode for you, a conversation with Tinsley English. She's the author of Grit: Growth and Gumption for Women: Three Keys to Lead Yourself and Others With Confidence. This is a dynamic conversation that takes us deep into the mindsets, uh, the attitudes that keep us stuck in positions where we don't feel satisfied, and what we can do to break through free and become leaders. And whether leadership means inside of an organization, becoming an entrepreneur, a leadership in your family, in your community, whatever that l- whatever leadership means for you.
Whether it's just taking personal ownership and leadership of your own life, there are moments where we feel stuck, and Tinsley helps us break out. Incredible human, incredible person, longtime leader, operational leader inside one of the largest insurance organizations in the United States. This is... You are gonna love this conversation. Enjoy Tinsley English.
So Tinsley, I'm so excited to have you on the show. Thanks for coming on. Absolutely. Happy Friday. Yeah.
And, uh, I will have said this in, uh, the intro as well, but I always love having a fellow insurance industry professional on the show when they have then... And, and for those listening that just cringed a little bit thinking we're gonna nerd out on insurance, we're not, right? That's not the point. I love having, um, insurance industry people who have thought about the world in a larger sense and branched out and done something interesting outside of it, and that's why we ha- I mean, when I saw your book, I saw the title, I saw the topic. Obviously I'd seen a lot of your work and, and stuff that you've done, uh, on LinkedIn, and just the way you talk about it and think about it, I just couldn't have been more excited to have you on and, and really break down, uh, a little bit of your story.
And then I wanna get into the topics that you address in your book. Yeah. I am so excited to be here, and I love everything that you're doing around thought leadership and pushing the boundaries. You know, we, we have to do s- so many things within the confines of the law and with- in, um, in insurance, just following the rules and doing the right thing all the time. That, um, to, to veer outside and color outside the lines, it is, it's fun to get into the space where we're talking about leadership and, and how that's coming from within us.
Um, so and that's really why I wrote this book is, is just to talk about those leadership qualities that we all have inside of us, um, and where we need to dial up certain areas to really be effective, confident leaders. Yeah. S- so, and, and I, I, I couldn't agree with you more on that. And I think that, um, you know, I've experienced firsthand, uh, the, the, the wrath of an industry that, that is, that does not appreciate innovation or innovative thinking. And I think you are, to me, seem to be much better at, at probably playing a little bit of the game and, and not ha- not having people throw stones at you.
However, at the same time, your ideas are, are forward-thinking, they are driven, they are determined. Uh, I think the message is, is clear, and people obviously resonate with it. So just taking a step back into, into your history a little bit, like, where did that come from? Like, we don't need to go all the way back to, to, to, to... You know, go back as far as you think is relevant to kind of address, like, where you started to develop some of these things or where you started to see the, the weaknesses or, um, maybe, maybe, uh, opportunities for people to, to grow into these spaces.
I think it was in, uh, my mid-30s. I was promoted as a senior account manager, and with that comes some, some junior reports, so people maybe that at the assistant level or the account manager level. And these people are looking to me to give direction, to delegate work out, um, to he- help answer complex coverage questions for clients, and I was, I was just not equipped. I feel, I tell people I was, I was promoted without an instruction manual. Um, I was promoted to a leadership position without an instruction manual, and I failed forward.
For, for years I failed forward, and that's okay. I really want people to fail forward. But, um, it was painful. Just like falling is painful, failing forward is painful. And w- what I came to realize when I look back on those days is I was a really great individual contributor, so- A senior account manager.
My clients really were happy with me, and my producers were happy with me, and I was just really confident in my own abilities. So when I had people reporting to me, I would just expect them to do it exactly like I did it, to handle client, client questions or client issues exactly like I did it. I wanted all my proposals to look the same. Didn't give a lot of room for innovation, didn't give a lot of grace for failure. Um, I would actually probably make them feel bad when they, when they didn't do something the way I asked them to.
And so I, I look back and I cringe, um, about those times and, and also personally during those times. I was a, I was a mother. I had a three-year-old, three-year-old girl, and I was the first to drop off at daycare at dark, 6:30. I can remember rolling in hot to the daycare at 6:30 at night, last to pick up, apologizing profusely, feeling like mom guilt weighing down on me, mom guilt, and then also like guilt from leaving the office, couldn't get everything done. Um, so those times, like that time, when I reflect back on it, I know that there are other women in that, in that early career stage right now in leadership, and they're, they're struggling.
They're on the struggle bus with that. They are laying in bed at 3:00 in the morning, "Did I, did I check this audit in a timely fashion? Oh, also, am I gonna make this school play for my daughter this week, or do I have a renewal meeting?" So it's all the stuff, and I'm not saying like at 3:00 in the morning I don't wake up and still have a panic attack about things I need to do. But, um, I, I, I can at least self-soothe now.
So the book is really coming out of a place where, um, if somebody is getting into leadership especially, let's give her some tools that I didn't have so she doesn't feel like she's going it completely alone. Yeah. I can relate, not personally, but, and I don't know if you know this about Rogue Risk, but our hiring practice, we were about 70% either single moms or moms with young children, was our workforce. Love that. And we specifically recruited them because they often got tossed out.
And, you know, for those of you not in the insurance industry, uh, particularly the part that I came from, or the, those not in the insurance industry who are listening to the show, the part that I came from was the independent channel, which is more like last name/insurance on every road you've ever driven down. Is, is my portion of the industry. And in those businesses, they tend to be very old school and very punch, uh, uh, timecard punchy. Mm-hmm. So what was happening with these women was they were either single moms, which adds a whole nother layer to the difficulty of what they have to do- Oh, yeah ... uh, or they were moms with young children, which is tough enough.
And because maybe they had to go to a school thing, maybe their kid got sick, maybe the one time, because their entire life outside of work was taken with kid stuff, they needed to do, you know, pack a day with doctor's appointments, whatever. They were being tossed out by all these old, traditional, you know, I call them like fat, old white guy type businesses- Mm-hmm ... where if you couldn't punch in at 8:30 and punch out at 5:30, they did not want you. And I found two interesting things. One, uh, if you have a little bit of flexibility, and, and while they tend to be tougher to manage only because oftentimes have to be remote and they don't, you know, managing anyone who isn't strictly on this schedule is tougher. Yes.
Um, you got, I got this incredible enthusiasm and work ethic, uh, uh, because they were appreciative of the fact they actually live their frigging lives, so I don't understand why even capitalists, like pure capitalists, aren't thinking this way. And two, the, the one, I- I'll, I'll call it a negative, but, but really it was just a mindset that I didn't foresee coming, and this is really where my question comes out of, was they tended to initially start in a company in a very, um, like territorial, competitive mindset. Mm-hmm. Like, "If I don't protect my territory, I'm gonna get fired. I'm gonna get yelled at.
I'm gonna get demoted," or whatever. And it took, for some of them, it took six months, sometimes longer, to go like, I, I, I'm not a big fan of like the term like safe zones, but I'm like, "You're safe here." Yeah. "Like, I'm not firing you. Like, you're good.
Keep working. This is a results-" It's psychological safety. It's psychological safety. Yes. Yeah, yeah, psychological safety.
Yeah, yeah. That's the true thing at work. Like that's, I think psychological safety is more important than me saying to you like, "You're part of our family." No, I'm really not. Yeah.
Um, you know, we're work, we're work colleagues, but, but for you to tell me like, "Hey, you're safe here," I'm, if I tell you that you've got some flexibility around your workday, I mean it. I'm not just trying to get you in the door. And I grew up with a single mom, so, um, you know, I get it. Like I was, I was the last one picked up at the- Yeah ... and I'd go to those awful after school programs where they'd like give you a piece of like cheese and bologna for a snack, and then like turn you out into the schoolyard and just like to rot until your parents got there. Yeah.
And I mean, I, it's probably where my work ethic came from. Um, I had to see my mom grind. Like she was a grinder. Started her own insurance business. Or I'm sorry, not insurance business.
Um, now you've got me thinking insurance. Yeah. Um, interior design firm. Um, I have an older sister, and from an early age, and this is probably why I just love women so much and, and women that are just out there getting it done, is that my sister and I were always workers. And when I was 15 my mom said, "You know, you've got a job.
You're going to work for your uncle, he's a lawyer. He's gonna put you to work doing, I don't know, shredding files and all that kind of stuff." My sister, we just worked work. We d- had two jobs at some time during high school. And we loved it.
We loved having that freedom, we loved having our own money, um, and we liked having that independence. So Mom always was kind of like, "If you find somebody and you wanna align yourself with that person in a long-term way, great, but you've gotta be able to provide for yourself." And that's what you're saying these women that you've hired are doing. Yeah. How do you...
So if someone's listening to this and, uh, maybe they just, maybe just the idea of psychological safety is something they've never just wrapped their head around, right? How do you, as a leader, start to provide that for your team? W- w- what does that look like in practice so that- Mm-hmm ... people know... Y- I m- break it down and explain what that, what that looks like and how you actually put that in practice. So in order to lead with psychological, psychological safety, um, you, you have to be safe within yourself.
Um, and, and I hope that comes from whether you're reporting to a team of people or you're reporting to just one person. What's your relationship like with them? Um, are they gonna go to bat for you or your team if somebody screws something up pretty royally, which, which can happen. Uh, most of the times that we think we've screwed something up, we're blowing it way out of proportion. But are your...
I've had a manager one time, he's like, "I'm just gonna give you enough rope." He like, "I'm always going to come to bat for you, even if it means my job's on the line." And, and he created that for me, and, and I loved it because I was like, "Okay, I can try things now. I can be more innovative." Color, like I say this again, color outside the lines.
But so if you've got that with your manager, and maybe you don't have it with your manager, you n- you need to fix it, because in order for your team to, to feel safe with you, you have to feel safe within yourself. In that, okay, they're gonna screw stuff up, but I'm gonna hold, hold that space for them and, and go to the mat for them when it comes down to it. And if you don't have the confidence to do that, that's where this book can come in to help you build that. Yeah. And so what would, what would be one thing, like is it, do you have a, are you having regular meetings?
Is it the verbiage that you're using, or is it simply, you know, when, when these situations present themselves, you have to act accordingly? Like, how do you... It's probably, and it's probably a combination of all of them, but like if I'm, let's say, let's say I own my own business and I got a team- Yes ... of 10, 15 people, and I'm sitting here going, you know, I use that term, "We're all family," but maybe that doesn't mean anything to them. Mm-hmm. What, what would you- Maybe some of them like their family, Ryan.
Yes. I know, and I think, you know, it's also, it's one of those things and it's one of those things that sounds really good if you're the one saying it- Mm-hmm ... but when you hear it, you're like, "Yeah." You're not my mama. Until I mess up and then you're gonna fire me like everybody else. Yes.
So it's regular- You know? ... touch points. Uh, it's knowing your team. Get to know your team on a personal level, and I'm not saying you have to go out with them in a social setting all the time. But take your team to lunch. I know we get busy, but take them out and grab something quickly.
Get to know what they're like, what, if they've got kids, and what they are interested in. So I think before you can start to say, "We're a family," like you gotta get to know that person i- in a, in a way that they feel comfortable sharing, sharing certain things about themselves with you. And then once you've established a trust, like be present, be there often. And if you're working in a remote setting, uh, with these people, set the touch points. Set a...
I have weekly touch points with my remote colleagues, and, and just catch up. And what was hard this week? What was easy this week? What did you do better? What did you, uh, bring to the table as a solution?
So you've got that ongoing dialogue, 'cause it's just, it's constant. Like you feel more comfortable telling somebody something if you're talking to them all the time. But if you haven't spoken to your manager in a month and then you've gotta tell them something, that's built up in your mind of, "Oh, my gosh, this thing that was actually very small is now built up. I've been thinking about it." Um, and then if you've done something, like if you screwed something up, just come tell me.
Like tell me as soon as you figure it out. Let me help you, because if you might try to figure it out on your own, you might dig yourself in a bigger, deeper hole. Yeah. Uh, yeah. I, I, uh, two comments there.
One, I often think when, like a, a business owner says, "We're all family here," what they're really saying is, "Give me all the slack for all the stupid things that I do," but, you know, not necessarily with the intention of reciprocating that. So basically they're saying, "I'm gonna kinda be a hot mess and act the way I'm gonna act, and this is my business, and I need you to give me the grace because we're a family." Yes. "But I don't necessarily have to reciprocate that." That, that's at least been my experience.
Um- And if we're family, then you're gonna b- start to feel like your office is my home, and it's not. Yeah. I have a home- Yes ... and it's where I like to be- Yes. ... at night. Exactly. Um, you know, and, and I have an anecdote for the touch points.
I ha- I had a very high performing team member that I adored and, uh, and she started acting weird. And I was like, "So what..." You know, it'd been maybe a couple weeks since I touched in with her, and I just said, "Hey, let's have a meeting." She said, "Great." And get out...
I can immediately tell something's wrong. And I'm just like, "What's going on?" Like, you know, she's, her numbers are great, she's doing great. I have no problems with her work. She's awesome.
She doesn't cause any problems. She's not a complainer. Like all the things. She's great, great employee. And she's like, "You don't talk to me anymore."
And I'm like- Um, yeah ... and it like hit me that... So I had a, a mi- and I said to her, I said, I was like, "Oh, my gosh, please take my not reaching out to you as a compliment. Like, you're not a problem. You're doing great. Like, I gotta go deal with the problems all day."
Yeah. "And people who are-" Yeah ... doing things that are choosing wrong. And, but, but what it taught me was- And I, and, and hope to, and I'm, I'm sharing this hopefully for the people that are listening and pu- trying to put themselves in these positions, is that my mentality was all wrong, right? That, that mentality of if I'm not contacting you, it's because you're doing everything right, that doesn't work. Like, that's not- Mm-mm ... the way humans are.
Like, you know- No. You could be- Because if they're doing everything right, they do... need somebody being like, "Hey, you're- Yeah, yeah ... killing it." And even if it's just like- That's what she said ... a quick text, like, "You're killing it. You're awesome. I'm here, I'm here to support you."
Like, I had a- Yes ... a, a, a manager at some point turn that phrase to me, uh, "What can I do to support you?" Or, "I'm here to support you." Um, that just was, it resonated with me, and I use that a lot. Like, what can I do as your leader- Yeah ... to support you? Because it's typically the other way around.
Like, if I- Yeah ... if you're my boss, I'm saying, "What, what do you need me to do?" Yeah. I actually, um, I picked this up from a, a high school sports coach that I had. Um, very, uh, very forward-thinking. Today, I think this would be more common language, but at the time it was not.
And he, he, like, b- right before the season started, he sat us down and he basically said, "My role here is simply to make you the best versions of you." Right? Like, I... "It's not about me. Like, I, I...
Because I'm the coach, no one cares. I don't care. It's, that's a... My job is to make you the best version of you that you can be. So if I'm yelling at you or I'm instructing you or I'm..."
You know, what- It's only because I think you are capable and want- Mm-hmm ... you to reach our max. Okay. So, I, that has always resonated with me and, you know, I think something that is not shared enough, even though I think a lot of leaders believe this, they just simply... And, and what I'm taking from what you're saying, and, and let me know if I'm wrong, is that oftentimes I think we have the right thought or intention in our head as leaders, but we believe that our people are mind readers, right? We believe that they somehow can r- read our minds so we don't communicate with them.
And that was, that was my problem for a long time, was that I, I just assumed they knew- Yes ... that I thought X or thought they were doing a good job. Like, "You still work here. I'm happy at you and I haven't yelled at you ever, so why would I have a problem with your work product?" But, but I wasn't telling them, "I think this is great. This is wonderful.
Keep doing more of this. Thank you." Like, I wasn't doing those things for a long time and, um, that was a huge shift in my leadership. And, and the productivity and the general atmosphere of your business changes when you start to do that stuff. And even if you've got a high performer and they are killing everything that you've, you've put in front of them, they still need some like, "Okay, you're killing this," but you know, they...
Like, high performers still need stretch goals. Um, and you know, that might be where you and that high performer establish those together. But if you've given me a, a, you know, three boxes to check and I've checked those three boxes for 365 days, don't just let me sit over here and keep checking them. I need, I need three more boxes to add on top of that to stretch. Because as a high performer, unless you're giving me that, I'm gonna get bored and, uh- Yeah ...
I'm probably gonna disengage. I wanna change topics slightly. Um, one of the primary bullets in your book and one of the key things that I've seen you talk about in, in some of the marketing and, and inside the book is this idea of lacking a sense of direction. And I think that this is 100% true in our business, and I think that it extends into, uh, right now in our current moment in time, in, in, in our society, it feels like a general lack or, or sense of direction i- is very common. Or as, as common- Mm-hmm ... as I've ever perceived it to be in my lifetime.
One, in general, why do you think that is? And two, how do we... Like, when you're talking to someone or you have a mentee or a team member and they bring this up or you get this sense, how do you start to coach them out of that? So I'm gonna answer the, the second question first. First.
You can answer it however you want. And, and I'm not gonna tell you I have an answer for why there's a lack of sense of direction, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna just kinda guesstimate. So the one thing that I do in the book is that I talk about what your core values are. And I wanna know what... And I give you some questions to even go back to like an early, early childhood memory.
Let's start to talk about a time you felt good, a time that you did something well. Um, what was that and, and who was with you? And I want you to start to try to picture what, what that was like and those... And then start to like draw those core values out of you. And I give you a, a list of 50 different core values, but I give you space to add your own.
And so once I've gotten those established, then we wanna craft a personal vision statement. And that is, "I am Ryan and, uh, my core val- I'm going to use my core values of X, Y, and Z over the next five years to blank." And that's usually, uh, impact blank. It's impact the brokerage community, impact the, my clients. Um, and I want you to fill in the blank.
So for, for my personal vision statement outside of my role, um, as an operations leader, I wanna impact as many women as I can with this book and this message. It's like a million do- a million target right now. A million women target. I think that's a little small, so I need to probably up it. But once we've got that personal vision statement established and you feel good, and it needs to feel so good that it's more than an el- elevator pitch.
It's, you feel tingles. Like you feel excited when you say it. And you can do this, y- you know, I'd like you to do it to where you're integrating your, your personal and your professional life so that everything's always in alignment. If your personal vision statement for your work is completely different from that of your, your, your life, you're gonna have, you're gonna have some conflicting ideas. So once we've established that, then we break it down into short, medium, and long-term timeframes, and so you can kind of reverse engineer what you need to be doing today to get there.
Yeah. Um, and I don't know if everybody's having these conversations with themselves or with their, their reports, but I wish somebody had had that conversation with me rather than, you know, "Here's our company culture. These are the three things that w- our website says that we believe in. You should believe in them, too. Let's go to work."
I don't think nearly anyone is having these types of conversations. Um, I was reminded by a friend the other day, uh, I- I... My biggest problem is often that I'm interested in too many different topics. It's a big reason why I do the podcast, 'cause it gives me my outlet to talk to so many different people and learn so many different things. But I was nerding out on some topic and blathering on to a, to a friend of mine, and he, he goes, "I gotta, I gotta stop you."
And I go, "Why?" And he goes, "I don't know what the fuck you're talking about." And I said, "What do you mean?" I go, "You've never thought about..." I think I...
Th- this is gonna sound ridiculous, but I think I was, I was debating the allocation of physical hard assets that you should have in your investment portfolio or whatever. It doesn't matter. It literally doesn't matter. And he goes, "I don't even know what you're talking about. I've never thought about that."
And I go, "You've never thought about, you know, bup, bup, bup, and what about this, and what if this happens, and inflation and the economy, la, la, la?" And he's like, "Nobody thinks about this. What are you talking about?" Uh-huh. And I was like...
And I don't mean that as a anything special to me. I mean, I think most people are just trying to survive day to day. Yeah. I honestly think they wake up, they interact with either their family or whoever, they try to get through the morning, they get through the morning, they get in their car, they, they drink their coffee or whatever, they get to the office, they try to survive the office for eight hours, maybe have a little fun, maybe crack a joke, but really they're hating it. They get done, they get home, they try to get through the evening, they turn on the TV, pop some ice cream, watch some TV, go to bed, and do it again.
And then- And I get that. I, I've... Hey, I've been there too. I, I will tell you, I've been that girl sitting on the couch watching Netflix and like, just binging out and trying to just unwind, uh, you know, and getting into that loop where every night looks the same, every day looks the same. You don't even...
I don't even know what I did on the weekends, like shopping, like Target, and just running around and I felt like I was running around in circles, uh, many times, and that's really no way to live. I don't want people to live that way. Yeah. I want people to wake up and be jazzed about going to work because they know that they've got some people there that are gonna push them and that are gonna challenge their ideas and, like you said, make them a better version of themselves. And you know- Yeah ... the great thing about all this stuff we're talking about?
It doesn't cost anything. Yeah. I mean, you know, my book's on sale right now for 99 cents, because you know why? I, I don't care about making a million dollars from this book. I just want people to have a sense of purpose.
And, and I think if you can figure out what your sense of purpose is, that translates to every area of your life. C- I, I completely agree. I think, uh, I think the word passion is used too much and the word purpose is not used enough, if, if I had to guess. I've got some friends that are really big on purpose, and they help you delve down- Yeah ... into that purpose. Yeah.
Uh, uh, passion, I have nothing against passion. Mm-hmm. But to me, passion is a derivative. It's not, it's not a first principle. It's when you find...
The, the times when I, when I per- when I personally have been the most passionate about anything were the times when I was most dialed into my purpose in the thing that I was doing. Be it recreational or business, w- you know, I, I am incredibly passionate about coaching kids' sports. I love it. I love every second of it. But it's only because- You have a lot of patience then.
Yeah, and I just, I... You know, I feel like we treat our kids like they're idiots, and I don't treat them that way, and I have so much fun with them. And we joke and we laugh, and I yell at 'em, and I, you know, I call 'em dummies because they are. I'm like, "You're freaking 10. You're a bunch of dummies.
What are you talking about? You don't know anything. Your brain's not even developed. You're, you're talking to me like you know what you're talking about." And, and but my point in getting that is the reason I'm passionate about it is not 'cause I like spending entire weekends of my life on a baseball field.
I mean, I don't- Yeah ... frankly, I don't like that. I don't like that a lot actually. But man, I love helping these kids, and it's a part of the purpose of my life is helping these kids and talking to them and showing them why... You know, I, I had a, I had a kid, he got drilled the other day, absolutely drilled by this pitcher that threw really hard. And for kids this age, 8 to 10 in particular- Yeah ... uh, that can be a very shocking experience for them.
I- in some cases, because we live in such a soft society today, it's the most pain they've ever felt ever in their life. Sure. Right? Sure. So, so they don't know what to do with this.
And helping coach them through that, not only to just get through the moment, but to ultimately get back up and get in that batter's box and actually give it a real try, like, you know, there's something there. Okay. So it's kind of this idea of like, I could be miserable out there. I could be standing there, it's raining. I live, live in the north.
It's cold. You don't wanna be outside. It's terrible. You've lost 10 hours of your weekend on baseball fields, and you're dealing with these kids, and, you know. Or you can...
But I'm passionate about it because of the purpose, right? So I think that this thing, going back to- And what, what you're doing What you're doing is you're... They're gonna remember you forever, Ryan. These kids are gonna remember you. I was the worst softball player, you can fact check this, in Glenn County, Georgia ever.
The worst. And I s- I played it for eight years. Like, I didn't have my dad around, so I, you know, my mom certainly wasn't trying to throw a softball with me, so I didn't really practice, but I had the best coaches, and they didn't care. They just put me in right field so, uh, you know, maybe a ball will go out there, or sometimes I'd be the catcher, but I'd be the one that would just be, like, dropping the dang ball. Yeah.
So I don't know, but I remember, I remember a, a, a handful of my coaches, and they were just like, "Tinsley, you're so bad- Yeah ... but you have the best attitude." I just wanted to be part of the team. So you've got those kids on your team, I'm sure, the ones that aren't good, and they're, they're gonna remember you. They're not gonna remember how... They're gonna laugh about how bad they were, but they're gonna remember the way that you made them feel.
Well, I, I mean, I hope. But I, I think, I think, uh, I think going all the way back to the question of, like, lacking a sense of direction and how we- Yeah ... get out of it, to me what it sounds like, your exercise and, and the work that you do through the book is, is essentially helping them find what that purpose is. Mm-hmm. And I think, I think... So, so then you had stated that, you know, you weren't sure how many people actually thought about this stuff, and I think the answer is not a lot.
If they do, they give it lip service, not real work. So, so you've, you've, you've shown them, you, you've kinda shown them the path, you've given them a, a project and a, and a work product to do that's gonna help them, uh, start to break free from this, this sense of being stuck, we'll call it. Um, how, how do you coach, uh, these women and, and, and anyone that's listening, how would you coach them through the consistency, and maybe this is in the title of your book, the, the grit piece, how do you coach them through... 'Cause it's gonna... The first couple days are amazing, "Oh, I'm journaling my progress." Oh, yeah, you're high on the- Yeah, and then the third day you're like, "Ugh, this is terrible- Yeah ...
I don't wanna do it," right? Or, "My kids, my kid woke up too early and I couldn't do it," or too late or whatever. Like, how do you- Or, "I have an ear infection. My kid gave me an ear infection. I know they're not contagious, but-" Yeah ...
"now we're everybody sick." Like, when you have kids in daycare, like, you get every little thing that you get. That didn't mean, and this was before we could work from home when I was- Yeah ... growing up in this business. So I was dragging myself to work sick as a dog. And so I see what you're saying, um, like- How do you get 'em to keep coming back?
How do we- Yeah, so that- ... get through it? That's like everybody thinks that grit is just rolling up your sleeves, but, um, the resilience part of grit is dealing with that setback and, and kinda easing into the, to that time when it doesn't feel good. And, and when it's, it's longevity, so grit is longevity. It's not being in it to win it for a minute. It is, and I did not mean to rhyme there, but I did, um, it's being there in the long haul and, and knowing that, like, your life and your career are gonna have peaks and valleys.
Um, and the valleys are not fun, and sometimes you cannot see how long you're gonna be in that valley. Um, and one thing that I do, and we can go back to the grit and the resilience piece, but one thing I do in the book is compare careers to an amusement park. Um, and I've got a little poem at the beginning of the book, and it's talking about this rollercoaster. So if you think about management in a way that you're, you've gotten to the, you've gotten to the amusement park, and you're gonna, you're gonna get into management. So you've got this nice little merry-go-round car- carousel over here.
It's, it's very prescriptive. You, you know exactly what you're gonna do. This ride is gonna go round and round and round. And, and for women especially, like, if you're gonna get into leadership, they need you to do X, Y, and Z, and they know that you will do X, Y, and Z 'cause you're a woman and you're gonna follow direction, and you're not gonna color outside the lines. And you're on your, you know, you're on your carousel hor- horse, and you're going around and around.
Well, I'm, uh, th- that's not for everybody. I, I need a little more fun in my life in leadership. So I, I compare it to say not everybody is cut out for that management merry-go-round. If you want more, you're gonna get on this leadership rollercoaster. And so when you think about the grit, that is when that coaster has just left the platform, and it is a grind.
You have no momentum behind you at that point. You're just crawling, crawling, crawling towards the top, and that's what, like, building your early career or one of those setback times, like, nobody's pushing me. I'm doing, carrying all this weight on my own to get to the top. And so then you get to the top, and, and you're up there and you can see for miles around, and you finally have, like, the really good vantage point. You can see the forest for the trees.
Um, but that is where that gumption piece comes in of the confidence to, to move forward. And this could be, like, your first big, um, critical conversation as a leader, your first coaching of somebody through something very difficult, and you don't feel equipped yet. So you're gonna have to, like, take that leap. You can't stay up at the top 'cause there's another coaster coming behind you, say. Um, so you gotta, you gotta move forward, and you gotta have that gumption to move forward.
And then you're going really fast, and what have you gotta do next? You've gotta turn, and the turn is the growth piece. So th- that is staying on the track when you've got all this acceleration and, you, you know, you kinda wanna fly off the rails, but you've gotta lean into those turns. And so that growth piece is, um, it's where I was lacking as a leader. I liken the growth piece to, to emotional intelligence and empathy.
I had very low, both of those I was very low on. Um, so you'll, you'll read this in the chapter in my book, but I, I say that the management merry-go-round- You're probably gonna do okay, and, and you're not gonna remember the ride, though. The, the leadership rollercoaster, the ticket is much higher, and it's a l- it's scarier, but you're gonna remember it. You're gonna walk away from that amusement park saying, "That was a hell of a ride. Like, I remembered it and my team remembered it."
So that's a little analogy that I use and to kind of paint the picture of what we mean by grit, growth, and gumption. Um, and the whole idea of the G-Force principle was something that I'll attribute to my husband. He was not a fan of rollercoasters at an early age. His mom dragged him on it 'cause she's a thrill s- seeker. And he's like, "I didn't cry," but I think he might have cried.
Hmm. Um, but he told me one time about a- as a high school student, he went on a physics field trip to Busch Gardens in Florida, and they were studying the G-Force principle with a rollercoaster. And so he started to, like, explain the whole ride and everything, and I was like, that sounds a lot like the leadership, the leadership principle that I just described. And so when I, when it came time to think about what grit, growth, and gumption really was, that's where it's like that's the G-Force. It's acceleration.
It's moving forward. You're not stagnant or stationary like that, that merry-go-round that's stuck in one place. Mm-hmm. So that was a very long-winded explanation, but that's how I came up with this principle. No, I think that's wonderful, and I, and I think the rollercoaster analogy is, is completely on point.
I mean, it's... And I really like the part about it being memorable. I think that, again, going back to this idea of why do so many people seem to lack a sense of direction is I think there is a general, there's a, there's a, a belief that, and I have no idea where it came from, but that, that if we can't be guaranteed the experience we want, we're unwilling to take a swing at the thing. So what we do is we sit around and we look at all these opportunities and go, "Eh, that could be fun, but what will I be in 10 years?" Or, "This could be thi- but it only is gonna make this much money."
Or- Yeah ... and, and, and so we just stay in this one spot because we're, we're projecting out into the future what we believe it's gonna, what this thing is gonna be. And I think you're right on it. Like, until you ride the ride, you have no idea what it's gonna be like, but if you engage, if you, if you step into something, at worst, you're gonna find something that you don't like to do, at worst, or a- Big deal ... type of boss you don't like to work for or a type of company you don't like to work for. Like, I now know through multiple iterations I am not meant to work in a bureaucracy. Absolutely, 100% not meant to work in a bureaucracy.
I stick out like a sore thumb. I rub everyone the wrong way. No one ends up liking me. I'm so surprised at that. Oh, yeah, just the, j- it's constant.
And, uh, and you know, this has been over and over and over again. Um, and, and I, I've had to embrace that be- I always thought I love working for teams, like wor- you know, I like working on big projects. Where do you find that? Big companies. Yeah.
Let's go. And it just isn't the path for me. So it's, it's okay, well, now I know that, so now I can readjust. And what that's done is taken the number of possible directions I could have gone in that maybe was holding me back in the past and said, "There's only a few options left," right? Join a really small business team, maybe be a consultant, start your own business.
Like- Yes ... these are the only ways that you can go. Now, for other people, you might try to be an entrepreneur and find you just don't love it. You either like, you, you... Because I think the entrepreneur porn o- of the last, like, five to 10 years has tried to convince us all that we need to be our own bosses, and I don't think that that's true. I, I- Not everybody has that discipline.
And it's not even that not everyone likes it. Yeah. There's so much stuff. Like, when I think about, uh, my, my, my old agency, Rogue Risk, I wasn't selling insurance and doing big business development deals and stuff all the time. Most of the time, as the, the founder and owner of the business, I was dealing with nonsense, nonsense stuff.
This, this- Payroll taxes Oh my gosh, just, just all these nonsensical things that are absolutely part of that position, and I think that, um, I guess my point is, like, I wouldn't know what things I liked and what I wouldn't if I didn't try. Same with you, right? Yes. You engage in the world, you take the ride, you figure out, "I like this. I don't like this.
I work well with these kind of people. I don't here," et cetera. And, um, but if you don't get out there and take some kind of action, if you don't get on the ride, th- then you're never gonna know. You're, you're never gonna know. Um- And, and here's another thing.
Like, think about going to, like, a family barbecue or a, um, uh, you know, you're around your grandparents or you're around your parents or, you know, that annoying brother-in-law that everybody has. No, not that I have one. I love my brother-in-laws. Uh, but, you know, if you're talking to your family or your friends at a, at a party or a barbecue and they're asking you about your day and they're asking you about your work, do you just really wanna tell them some story that is so boring and, and not memorable that, like, they're ready to go get the second helping of the horrible potato salad that somebody put out? Or do you want them to be, like, on the edge of their seat, um, wanting you to tell them more?
So I think that's another thing that people... Like, I want, I want people to be excited about their careers, whether it's a career in risk management or anything. I want, I want people to feel like they're going somewhere to do something important. And for me, it's my, my thing is I wanna leave a legacy. I want- YeahWhen I exit insurance, when I exit anything, I want people to say, "She was here, and what she did mattered because she made me feel this way."
Just like we talked about with your kids on the, on the field. You want people to remember you in a way that you made them better. I agree. So I have just a couple questions left. I'm gonna be respectful of your time and of the audience's.
I... Last question on this particular topic is I'm positive that there are people listening to this, uh, part, portion of the conversation going, "That all sounds great, but I hate my job, and I hate my company, and there's no place for me to go, and I'm never gonna get a leadership position because of," insert whatever reason. Um, you know, what am I supposed to do? Mm-hmm. How do you, how do you respond to that person that looks at where they are and feels like there is no possible way of moving forward?
And we've all felt that way. Um, I would say I, I need that person to kinda give this book a chance, because we work through some of these challenges. Y- you might feel like you're stuck. You are definitely not stuck. You need to sit down and really evaluate what you hate about your job.
Is it you hate your boss? Is it you hate the tasks you're doing? Is it because the tasks that you're doing are not aligned with your, your personality and, and what gives you, you know, that spark and that, that initiative? Um, if you just got this, "I hate, I hate this," we need to figure out what you hate about it and what you can change about it. And, and if, if you can't change anything about your job, whether it be asking for a different role or reporting to a different person, um, you need to look at other opportunities.
I mean, you're, you're never absolutely stuck in something. You, you, you, you owe it to yourself to, to peek, peek through the door to see if there are other opportunities. And I just don't want anybody to ever feel like they are completely stuck where they are, and that, that goes back to the acceleration principle. Even if we're putting one foot in front of the other every day, and that's all you can do, you're gonna look back in, in, in a year and say, "Okay, I've gone, I've gotten a mile further down the road." So I don't want people to ever feel like they are stuck.
And, and if they do feel stuck, I want them to reach out to me, 'cause I'll help them get unstuck. Like, there are, there are lots of different ways to approach a career change or a, a reevaluation of where you are at that current point in time. Okay. I love that. So three questions to finish the show.
Okay. Um, you take over a new team, and 20 people on it, doesn't matter how many people are on the team, and you are tasked with giving them one book that will guide their relationship either working with you or will set the expectations for what you, you expect out of them, and it cannot be a book that you've written. Oh, it cannot... Like, that one's hard. Oh, gosh.
Um, I love The Purpose Factor- Mm-hmm ... by Gav and Brian Boucher. That's, that's one that really drills down to, to why you're here, to why that person's here. Um, and it's got a lot of life lessons and business lessons in it. Nice. Nice.
I like it. The Purpose Factor. The Purpose Factor. Very good. Yes.
Okay, question number two. Finish the show here. When you are at your best, how do you show up in the world? When I'm at my best, a- and, and, and this has been true throughout my career. When I know that a conversation that I've had or, um, any kind of interaction that I've had with a person, I can see that spark in their eyes and, and I can see that they, they believe in themselves or they've started, they've started believing themselves again, I am, like, on fire, so jazzed.
Like, there's no amount of money in the world that could compare to that. That is a feeling, and that goes on building that legacy. When I'm at my best, it is when I get a note or an email or a call from somebody and says, "Hey, I took your advice," or, "I reflected on our conversation and I've started to take this next step to change the direction or to reframe the situation." That is what gives me, like, the joy beyond anything else. Yeah.
And so one, I would just like to second that one. I refer to it as rocket fuel. Like, when you... Even sometimes it's, like, a simple one-line DM of like, "Hey, read your article," like, on, you know, "I'm running through a wall," whatever, whatever the thing is. It, it, it, it, it validates all the creative thought, like, everything you've done to put yourself in the position to be able to help that person, it validates it and it's like, it's like dropping rocket fuel into your engine.
And I will tell anyone who's listening who maybe s- has never felt that feeling, and don't worry, this is, it's not like it happens every day for me. Yeah. And it took a long time before it ever happened the first time, so I, I'm not, you know. But if that hasn't happened for you, I encourage you to try to cultivate that feeling as, as Tinsley just described. And to do so, it is simply as just like, "Hey, man, what's going on?
How you feeling today? What's up?" Right? You ask somebody, like, literally be interested in another human being, listen to what they have to say. And sometimes it's as simple as just going like, "You know what?
I've been, I'm right there with you, man. I feel you. I can, I can ev-" And, like, just simply letting someone know that they're not alone in the world can be enough to, like, change someone's entire day. It's, it is an amazing feeling. Um- And I just wanna add to that, Ryan, is- As a leader, there is a superpower in vulnerability.
Like, for me to tell you, uh, don't tell, like I don't want you to tell me that, "Oh, it'll be okay. Everything will be okay." Like, you can say, "That stinks. Like, I went through that. I actually just made that mistake last week."
Like, as a leader, you're supposed to be at a level with your team that they, they see you screw up, you know, and you're okay with it, and that's, that's, it brings back the psychological safety. So being a vulnerable leader and, and letting your team know, like, "I don't have this all figured out." Yeah. And that's like early motherhood. Like, some mothers make you feel horrible because you don't have it figured out, and others will be like, "Girl, you've got this.
Like, we've all done this." It's- Yeah ... it's just, that's what I wanna convey. Like, as a leader, you have the superpower of vulnerability, and you have to be willing to, like, check your ego at the door and, and let your team in to see who you are. I love it. All right, last question.
Um, Tinsley, do you have children or a child? Do you- I do. I have a daughter. Okay, so, okay, you have a daughter, okay. So you, uh, are able, now this is not the case, because we all give our children a million pieces of advice, but let's say you are only able to give your daughter one piece of advice, one, one thought, one concept that would put her on the path to be the best version of herself in whatever way that sh- that, that shows up in the world.
What would that be? I would say make an impact on somebody else every single day. I love that. Tinsley, it's been an incredible honor to have you on the show. I'm so happy for you- Thank you so much ... because I, I, I, I, you know, I had notes and stuff, and I, I got your, uh, Amazon listing up, and the entire time I've been staring on number one release, uh, on Amazon.
So happy for you. Incredible conversation. Um, the book is Grit, Growth, and Gumption For Women: Uh, uh, Create Your Own G-Force Code System. I love it. Uh, uh, we'll have links to the show.
In, in the show notes we'll have links to the book, so you can get them there. Uh, if you Google it or you go to Amazon, you're gonna find the book. Highly recommend it. I appreciate the hell out of you. Thank you for being here.
Oh, thanks for having me, Ryan. Yeah. Make it look, make it look, make it look easy. Hey, stand up guy, I'm on ten toes. Big body, pull up in a Range Rover.
I can change the whole game when I say so. I pull up, shut it down, yeah, they know. Huh. Running this game ain't a thing for me. I never switched up, no changing me.
The only thing changing is season. You go against me, then you know that you tweaking, okay. 'Cause, baby, I'm him, I be on 10. Two-stepping in the party, I do not dance. Watch how I move, make it look easy. Counting up wins, that's part of the plan.
Blackmail, taking off my haters as CC. I can't fail, all my victories are on repeat. I'm knee-deep, need a job? Best that you seek me. I'm too sick, yeah, I know I make it look easy.
Easy, easy, E-Z. Tell 'em don't try to play me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm drippy on the daily. They can never count me out.
They can never count me out, I know. They can never count me out. They can never count me out, I know I make it look easy. Make it look, make it look easy. I know I make it look easy.
Make it look, make it look easy. I know I make it look easy. Too smooth, I make it look easy. I know we make it look easy. Make it look, make it look, make it look.
I know I shoot my shot, better play up. Make it look easy, that's a layup. Ugh. Bad man, bad man. Why they wanna be like me? 'Cause sad man.
Too wavy, swallow your pride. All of my guys, call 'em, they slide. They will oblige. Brr. Called 'em, I told 'em, "You playing with me."
Now look, all of them starting a riot. Whoa. Huh. When I'm in your city, it's magic. When I'm all in my bag, it gets tragic.
When I see what I want, gotta have it. I can't let up, they made me a savage. I can't slow down, my foot on the gas, yeah. Going way up from where I was last year. I'ma make it look easy, that's it.
I know God got me, yeah, He got my back. These blessings falling in my lap. I came up, gave it all I had. Rep my city, put 'em on my back. Hit my shots, I don't miss those.
Straight up, I'ma let 'em know I don't fold. Make it look easy and they know. There's only one way for us to go. Can't hold me back, I'm going way up. Tell 'em they can never play us, no.
Ain't no stopping me now, no. Ain't no stopping me now, no. Ain't no stopping me, ain't no stopping me, ain't no stopping me now, no. Yeah, stayed in my lane, when they doubt it, I make it. I know that they mad when I swerve out the lot.
Thinking a plot. They did not get the picture when I said I don't fit in they box. Taking they shots. And they know that I ain't missing and it's up if they hand me the rock. I feel like I'm Rubik's 'cause they confused with how I line it up, I spin in the block.
Huh. Hey. Too easy. Get your white off when you see me. I'm a threat, please don't give me a reason.
I'm a vet, yeah, I see through your decency. When I'm done, they gon' pick up the pieces. And you know we ain't losing this season. It's the reason why they hating on me. 'Cause you know that I'ma make it look easy. Huh.
Ain't no stopping me now, no. Ain't no stopping me now, no, no. Ain't no stopping me now, no, no. Ain't no stopping me. I know I make it look easy.
Make it look, make it look easy. I know I make it look easy. Make it look, make it look easy. I know I make it look easy. Too smooth, I make it look easy.
I know we make it look easy. Make it look easy. I know I... Close twice as many deals by this time next week. Sound impossible?
It's not. With the one-call close system, you'll stop chasing leads and start closing deals in one call. This is the exact method we used to close 1,200 clients in under three years during the pandemic. No fluff, no endless follow-ups, just results fast. Based in behavioral psychology and battle-tested, the one-call close system eliminates excuses and gets the prospect saying yes more than you ever thought possible.
If you're ready to stop losing opportunities and start winning, visit masteroftheclose.com. That's masteroftheclose.com. Do it today. If you like the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow.
Thank you for listening. Happy holidays. Want to give your host a gift? Consider subscribing, rating, and reviewing the show this holiday season. It really helps the show grow.
From all of us at Believe, have a Merry Christmas, everyone, and a happy holiday
