How Insurance Soup is Redefining Insurance Communities w/ Mike McCormick

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It really helps the show grow. From all of us at Believe, have a Merry Christmas, everyone, and a happy holiday. I believe is very authentic. The way he did it was not. And, and it was like that right there, bam, never again.

Like I'll- Right ... I'll never take what you say seriously again. And again, not that you're pitching watches or whatever, but the idea is I think so many of these groups try to be something they're not, try to put on a, um... And, and this goes for all kinds of different things, associations, carrier gr- all kinds of different things, you know, mastermind groups, et cetera. Just be authentic to who you are, give a shit, listen and- In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home.

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. Today, we have a tremendous episode for you, a conversation with Mike McCormick, co-founder of Insurance Soup, uh, a group of insurance professionals, 53,000 large that I had a chance to speak to, uh, not all 53,000, but a group of, uh, I think just over 300 at Insurance Soup Live last year. It was one of my favorite events that I've been to in a very long time. It had y- a very, like, elevate 2017, 2018 feel to it, uh, energy, enthusiasm, uh, connection, camaraderie. Uh, it was, it was-- It had both a professional yet a very, uh, familial, uh, atmosphere, and just, I just enjoyed my time.

I enjoyed everyone I met. It was such a pleasure. Uh, I actually emceed the event, so I didn't, uh, keynote. I, I emceed and just enjoyed every moment of my time there and really got to know Mike and his co-founder, Taylor, and a few members on their team. And just think what they're doing and how they're building a community and how they're trying to support and help agents is-- It's, it's not the only way to do it, but it is certainly one of the ways that I would recommend.

I, I find it incredibly admirable. I think they're doing it in their own way. They're doing it for the right reasons, and I just couldn't be more supportive and, uh, happy that that Insurance Soup exists and that I now know what it is, right? I'd always-- I'd heard about them for years. I didn't know them that well.

I got to meet Mike for the first time in person at, uh, a mastermind event that we went together, uh, that we both went to in Utah and, uh, became very fast friends, uh, down to earth. Uh, you're gonna love this conversation, and, uh, I highly encourage you to join Insurance Soup and just get into their ecosystem. Uh, if you're an agent or work inside an agency, et cetera, uh, you can, you can join that group and be part of these conversations. Um, you-- I find it to be as positive and as supportive a group as is possible in a group that large, and, uh, I just couldn't recommend it enough. So, um, very excited to share Mike and his viewpoints on many different topics with you guys.

Before we get there, I just wanna say this is episode 235. Uh, we are putting two episodes out a week, and I just wanna say thank you for supporting this show, for, you know, we're growing every week. Numbers are going up every week. More and more people are listening. More and more people are sharing and commenting, and, uh, that's exactly why I do this, just to share ideas, to put new thoughts, uh, some of which are my own in the solo episodes, and some of which are the thoughts of the amazing guests that come on and, and, and, uh, uh, give us their time and their expertise.

And I just love you guys for listening. I hope that you find tremendous value, and if you wanna take this ride even deeper, I highly recommend you go to masterclass.insure. You can go to masterclass.insure, pop your name and email in, and, uh, you'll be notified of all the new things we have coming. Um, I have pushed back the release of, uh, the community just a little bit, uh, because I wanna do it right, and, uh, I'm constantly, uh, just trying to make sure that what I deliver to you is ... my best work. And, uh, so I pushed that back just a little bit, uh, but tons of amazing value.

I have some kind of free downloadable resources that I'm gonna be pushing out through the newsletter, so make sure that you go to masterclass.insure, uh, and, uh, subscribe to that. You'll be notified of new content, new resources, uh, places that I'm speaking, uh, and you'll also... You know, a lot of times I write about different, uh, different books that I'm reading, different ideas, different pieces of content that I come in contact with that I think you'll find value in and could potentially apply to either your life or your business. And, uh, I try to make that newsletter as valuable as possible. So either way, uh, whether you subscribe or not, I love you for listening or watching this show.

And if you're not subscribed, please do. Otherwise, my friends, I give you Mike McCormick. Dude, what's going on? I, uh, I'm excited to have you on the show. I'm excited to, to chat and talk about a few things, but just interested what's going on in your world.

I don't even know, man. What is going on in my world? It, it, it, I feel like I'm not even really, like, fully, don't tell Taylor, back into, like, frigging work mode yet. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Like, January is like, uh, like the, like the 35, like the 31 longest months of the year, and, you know, I'm glad that it's finally over. I did say months on purpose. Yeah. And, you know, since, since the holidays have been over, there was some time spent down in Puerto Rico with Wes. Yep.

Uh, I was just down in Tampa with, uh, w- actually Wes again and, uh, and David Cooper. I saw that. Yeah. I saw that. That was the, uh, wrestling trip that y- you had told me about, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the- Yeah ... we went down there for the Royal Rumble. So, uh, I'd n- I, I've been an on-again, off-again wrestling fan my entire life, and I, like, I'm not, I'm not the type of fan, not since I was a little kid, where it's like, "Oh my God, I love these guys. This is the best," you know, whatever. For me, it has always been like that, that warm security blanket that I can go back to at any given time, and I can turn on the TV. It's completely mindless.

I, I don't have to know what's going on. I know who the good guy is, and I know who the bad guy is based on the way they're talking to each other. Yeah. And I can just, I can just zone out, and, like, I can, I can be working, I can be working on my emails. I can be farting around on social media.

I can just glance up, and I still know what's going on. It's just nice and easy, and it's like- Yeah ... a couple hours a week where I don't have to do any thinking at all. It's just a couple of men in underwear- Yeah. ... who are trying to fight over a belt for pants that they're not even wearing. Yeah. And I get to just enjoy it.

Yeah. So. I, uh, I, I'm the same. I was, I've had, you know, when I was a kid, and then again, I had two buddies in college who were super into it, and just being around them, like, I watched a little bit. You know, and then I, I, I kinda feel the same way.

I mean, now my kids, like, enjoy it. I won't say they're huge fans, but they watch once in a while, and they... You know, and the thing too is with, like, YouTube, it's so much different. Like, before it was, like, Monday Night Raw, and you had to watch it and whatever. Now, you know, Monday Night Raw or whatever, SmackDown will happen, and then, uh, it'll get chopped up into all these clips, and then it's on YouTube and all these different things.

And, and, and it's that way with everything. It's that way with sports. Sure. It's that way with whatever you watch. And, um, you know, I like it also because I feel, and this is gonna sound weird, as a more conservative-minded person, I feel like it's a safe space for me.

Like, I'm not gonna see wacky, woke, nonsensical, you know, transgender crazy stuff. Like, men are men, and they're fighting. Yeah. Women are still able to... We can still think of them as, like, strong- Sexy and- ... but sexy and- Yeah ... and fun, and, like, they're feminine but strong, and the men are, like, acting like real men, and there's, like, a masculinity to it.

And- Yeah ... and, and I know it's fake fighting and whatever- Totally fake ... but you're not getting, like, the p- you know, politically correct, um, which by the way, I And again, if we haven't completely lost all of the listeners at this point, wrestling and politics. But, um, and so I heard this really interesting clip the other day, um, uh, from, uh, ah, shoot. It was, it was Jordan Peterson was talking about the origins of political correctness, right? And how today political correctness is yielded as, like, this, you know, you're a bad person if you're not politically correct, et cetera. And what people don't realize is it's actually political correctness, the, the term, the concept, and its proliferation are, uh, authoritarian communist.

Like, it's a Stalin, Stalin created the concept of political correctness. So the idea of political correctness in general, and, you know, I, I wanna get to a, I have a couple actual questions that come out of this. Um, but the whole concept of political correctness is an authoritarian term created by Joseph Stalin himself- Yeah ... in order to sculpt the way in which people are able to describe certain things. So what, what I think is really interesting is how, and again, this goes to, to all kinds of different concepts. We have to be very aware of the words we use and how we think about things because, you, you know, we, we throw around this idea of being politically correct, and we don't wanna offend people, et cetera, and that is literally a communist control mechanism.

Like, not you, y- me saying, "Mike, you can't say these things because I don't want you to offend people," is a way for me to control what you say and the truth and how it proliferates throughout, um, throughout a community. So again- Yeah ... uh, I thought that was very interesting. Um, but and my question for you out of that is, so you guys run the largest Facebook group for insurance agents, um, in the country, uh, 52,000, 53,000, somewhere around there, just a, a huge number. And just I think the last time that we spoke, you were saying on any given month, you have more than 36,000 of those members are active and engaged in the community. And it may even be more, but that's, even at, if that's the lowest number, that's tremendous.

Uh- I think right now we're running at 38, but I think, uh- Yeah ... at, at one point it was 36. But yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, it's phenomenal either way, 36, 38, 30... Those are phenomenal engagement numbers. A huge number of people.

Um, how do you, you know, anyone who's ever run a Facebook group or even been part of one, insurance or otherwise, knows the complete wacky nonsense that can happen. And, uh- Yeah ... we actually had some of your, we'll call them peer Facebook groups, have dealt with this, you know, quite seriously- Sure ... in the recent past. How, how do you guys, my interpretation of your group and my experience with Insurance Soup has been, for the most part, I don't see a lot of nonsense. I mean, some of the questions are, like, kinda remedial, and maybe some people get sick of that kinda stuff, but, but that all seems like fair game. It's more, like, I don't see as much of, like, the, the backstabbing, the, like, passive-aggressive shots at other members.

Like, I don't see a lot of that in there. I, I, I'm really interested in how you guys have cultivated that culture. One, do you think that's an accurate perception? And two, how have you cultivated that culture in a group that large, if that makes sense? I, I think we do a good job for a group that size.

I do still think that there is plenty of that nonsense present. Okay. Uh, you know, just being, you know, like, like- Yeah ... being, being honest. I mean, I'd, I'd love to, I'd love to just sit here on the podcast and be like, "Yeah, we're perfect," but we're, we're, we're definitely not. Um, I mean, dude, you're, you're, you're prominent online.

You put yourself out there and, and you're, you're a bold and opinionated guy, so, like, I know you get flak and pushback and all that kinda stuff. You know, from a very, very early stage when we started building the community, and, you know, originally we had no intention to monetize whatsoever. Mm. So because we didn't have, uh, any intention to monetize, and that, and, and that idea kinda came later, uh, you know, we, we ran the group very, very fast and loose. And when people were, were a little bit outside the box or whatever, we just removed them from the group.

But we didn't just remove them from the group, we did it in a, kind of like a public spectacle kinda way. Mm-hmm. Where- Like a beheading. Yes, yes. The, the, the beheading.

So we had a, we had a, a character that we created for the group, uh, that we called the Executioner, and every single time that someone would just act a fool in the group or whatever, I'd head on o- uh, head on over to the old Google machine and I'd find a, uh, a picture of a medieval executioner with, you know, someone with their head in the gallows or, or whatever, you know, the chopping block, and I would present the, the crime, and, uh, I use that word very loosely, to the group- Yeah ... and, and give the group the opportunity to decide what happens with the p- with, with the person. This is like the Gladiator, like thumbs up, thumbs down? Total, total. Total, like, totally. And, uh, and dude, like one thing that, that, that you would never know, or actually, I mean, you, you would definitely know, but the, maybe the average agent wouldn't know, is, is how unbelievably bloodthirsty our industry is- Oh ... for, uh, for, for one another.

Uh, I don't, I don't think, I don't think anyone s- survived the, uh, the Executioner. Once you were put up, it was, it was pretty much game over. But, um, what was interesting about that, and, you know, ultimately we decided to, to put it away, uh, put the Executioner away as, as we were growing and monetizing, our attorney said that was probably a, a good idea. What was interesting about that whole stage or phase in the, in, in the primordial Soups, uh, days, was that it really created an environment where the group governs itself. So, like, because they're so bloodthirsty and they love to see the heads roll, and, like, they, they love to see someone that's doing something they shouldn't be doing in there get removed, now whenever anybody is acting out of line, like I get tagged, Taylor gets tagged, someone's in my Messenger, you know, they're, they're, you know, they're calling attention to it.

And, you know, the, the riffraff and the nonsense get cleaned up pretty fast. Uh, uh, so, like, the posts where that take place get shut down immediately. Where you do find a little bit of nonsense in Soup is within the comment sections. Yeah. Yeah, that, that's the, the hard part.

So one, I completely agree. I think it is, in small groups, altruism, acceptance, grace, much e- uh, easier. You get into larger groups where maybe we've commented on the same post a couple times, but I don't know you from Adam and you don't know me from Eve kinda thing. Like- Sure ... our human nature is, like, people wanna, people wanna see retribution and justice. And I think, you know, I think it's very interesting, you know, it's an interesting psychology experiment that you guys are running, and that you probably have, you know, got a PhD in psychology now from having dealt with this for so long.

And just, you know- I, I think I need a, I think I need a psychiatrist with a PhD to deal with the problems that I've, I've endured as a result of the, the last 10 years, so. I'm sure. Because, you know, it's funny, you know, some people will just take everything you say out of context on purpose, right? And at first you're like, you're first you're like, "Okay, did I say that wrong?" And then you're li- then you're, it's like, it's like, it's like, uh, it's almost like, um, the five stages of remorse or whatever it is.

Like, or, you know, whatever the, uh, five stages of, uh, dealing with death, where it's like at first someone will say something and you'll be like, "Oh, maybe I just, maybe I could have said that better. Okay." And then the second time it happens you're like, "Maybe they're just not getting what I'm saying." And the next time you're like, "Ah, maybe they're just not very bright." And then the last time you're like- ...

"No, they just, they're just a dick. Like, they're just trying- Right ... to cause trouble." And, you know, and, like, you have to kinda work through this process where you're like, "How are they, how could they be, do they really not understand what I'm saying here?" Or you're like, "What is the point?" And I honestly believe that some people wake up and just, I don't know if it's 'cause they feel bad about themselves, where they are in their career, insecurity, whatever, man, they're just dying for an opportunity To make someone else look stupid.

And- So the, uh, I, I saw a Facebook reel, uh, probably about a week or so ago, and it was, uh, it was this woman, and she was all worked up, and she's yelling at this guy. And the guy's sitting in this chair, and he's got a big smile on his face, and he's all smug. And it, you know, it, it, the, like, the, the word, like, the words over the woman while she's yelling at, said, like, "You yelling at me, furious," you know, making points over, uh, you know, over some, you know, argument, whatever. And then she, it, it pans back to the guy and he, and he's sitting there all smug looking, and it says, "Me knowing I've been wrong for the last 20 minutes, not willing to budge an inch." Yeah, exactly.

And you find so many of them online. Yes. So many of them online. Yes. You have, like, you, you have...

Yeah, I, I, I'm with you, man. And it, it's funny, um, one of my favorite, uh, memes is, like, all the liberals when Trump won, when they just, like, started screaming 'cause they had no way to express, like, their feelings on the moment. Yeah. And then, you know, and, and then you have, and then the opposite you often see a lot of times from, from people of a, of a different disposition is that's the way they are. They, they literally won't agree to anything you say.

They won't fight you. They won't agree to anything, but they, but they know they're wrong too, and it's just, it's like... And, uh, it, it's so hard to, to put it all together. And my, and I guess my, my, my question is, and I, I'm interested in your take, I obviously have my own, like, when you're creating, and you create a lot in that group, and I think it's a testament to that group's quality is, is specifically, um, you know, and, and it's not that, not discounting anything Taylor has done, but, like, you are posting in there a lot of content. You're keeping it fresh.

You're communicating. You're commenting. Like, I see a lot of it. And, you know, what was the process like for you creating in public that often to kinda get past some of the... You just can't help yourself at first, the, the hate or the disagreement or, like, the whatever.

Like, as much as you may know you're right or know you believe or have faith in your beliefs, like, it still hits you in a, in a way. Like, how did you start to work through that? How did you start to feel more and more committed to your viewpoint, to, to the, how you, uh, uh, communicated with that group, how you shared value with them? Well, uh, I, I've always been pretty, pretty firm in my convictions. It's not something that I needed to really kinda grow into.

Yeah. Uh, like, I've always been a pretty opinionated and bold, uh, personality. Um, and as far as, as far as, like, dealing with the, the flak that comes from putting yourself out there and having people that disagree with you, oftentimes in not the, the most polite ways, uh, I don't know if I should be saying this or not, but, uh, there is not a single person that I've come across online that is able to beat me up worse than I beat myself up. So, like, I, I look at, I look at every single one of them and I chuckle and I'm like, "Man, if, if, if only you were as able to, to hurt me as much as I'm able to hurt myself. That was nothing."

Yeah. So- Yeah ... you know, not, not to, not to bring it down a, a, a dark path, but I've always been my own harshest critic. Uh, I, to this day, deal with massive, massive imposter syndrome, uh, something that I struggle with regularly. Uh, I, I truly look at what Taylor and I have created, and I say to myself, like, like I, I'm still shocked by it a lot of times. Yeah.

I feel, I feel like, uh, I feel like if we had to recreate it again today, it would be very, very difficult with the current landscape. Uh, and I feel very fortunate for what we've been able to create. But, uh, you know, by and large, I just, I just kinda chuckle and shruf it all off 'cause I, like, at this point too after doing it for so long, I know that there are people out there that are just looking to cause problems. Yeah. So, like, like, Kevin, to your point a, a, a few minutes ago, l- like, literally yesterday I put up a post that was a response to a, a woman.

A woman had, uh, had posted in suit asking if, uh, if she, uh, if she changed her hair to something crazy, like she, she's rat, br- a brunette woman, uh, was thinking about changing her hair to, like, blue and purple or something like that, and wanted to get the agent's opinion as to whether or not she would be hirable, you know, if she, if she was to make a change like that. And so I took, I, I took that question and the responses that all the agents gave, and I made a, I made a, I made a post about it so that my thoughts didn't get lost in the shuffle of the comment section. And I basically made a very, very generic post. No, I shouldn't say generic. It was, it was, it was opinionated, but, like, I was, I was basically making the point of, like, you can absolutely alter your appearance in any way, shape, or form that you want and still find a home within this industry, but you have to understand that whenever you're going to make a drastic, you know, change to your, to your look, that you are going to receive harsh judgment, not just from someone who may be thinking about hiring you, but by anyone thinking about opening up their wallet to give you, you know, to give you business.

And it was a, a, you know, I, uh, I, I, I use a lot of playful, you know, playful, uh, you know, talk when I write and, you know, I do try and make, you know, making a point. It, like, if I wanna really make a point, I will make it a little bit more emphatic than it needs to be made, or I make m- might make it a little bit more bombastic just to get a chuckle or to, you know, to- You can be hyperbolic ... uh, 1,000%. Yeah. And, uh, and so I referred to having, you know, crazy, you know, crazy, you know, colors in your hair. I said something to the effect of, you know, you know, "Feel free to, feel free to be Rainbow Bright if you'd like to be in this industry, but understand that there may be consequences," something like that.

I love it. And someone in the comment section, uh, alluded to, or made, made a comment along the lines of, uh, you know, "In 2024, is it really safe to assume the gender of..." You know, uh, uh, tried to, tried to take it down a path that it just, uh, it, it wouldn't go, and my, my r- well, that I wasn't willing to take it. And my response to the person was, um... What, what did I say to the person?

I, I said, uh, I said, "If you wanna, if you wanna slap a label on me and get yourself worked up, feel free. I'm sure there are others that'll participate." Yeah. And like, like, whatever. Like, I, like, I, I don't care.

I, like, I, I- That's all you can do ... like I, I, I have always looked at this, this cancel culture, which seems to be slowing down a bit the last, you know, call it six, nine months or whatever. Yeah. But that cancel culture that's been going on- Like, for the life of me, it always just tears me apart when I see someone turn around and apologize for something that requires no apology. Dude, I, I, I couldn't be more in agreement to you. You know, this is, we are living in a time where everyone is lying, and, and this is, this is what I don't understand.

Like, these, these politically correct warriors, a- and, and, and this goes for both sides. I don't wanna ... I think- Sure ... the left today, I think in the current pendulum swing right now, the left are these crazies trying to reorient reality. However, it has been the right in the past as well, so I don't- And you, and you go far enough right, you're gonna find some lulus over there too 100%. 100%.

So, so d- not ... But we are living i- you know, the most vocal by far right now are the extreme left. They're the most vocal by far, and the things that they're trying to get most people to say, people are just being wholly dishonest, you know what I mean? Like, for, for ... When you walk up to a coffee shop, right, and there is a person in front of you who is completely androgynous with half their head shaved, half their head blue, piercings everywhere.

Like, you know, I don't care so much about tattoos, but just, you know, they're tattooed all over the place, sometimes on their face. Their clothes are, look crazy. They're, they're calling attention to themselves for sure. Yeah. It's like, it's like I, I, I as an American believe you have the right to, to dress that way, to- Absolutely ... believe whatever you wanna believe.

That's the beauty of this place. However, I don't have to accept it. I don't have to say I'm f- I can say, "I don't wanna buy coffee from you." I can say, "I don't appreciate it." I can say, it's ...

You, you are making yourself purposefully unattractive and then f- and then want me to pretend like I think what you're doing is attractive. A- and that's a lie. What's up, guys? Sorry to take you away from the episode, but as you know, we do not run ads on this show, and in exchange for that, I need your help. If you're loving this episode, if you enjoy this podcast, whether you're watching on YouTube or you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, I would love for you to subscribe, share, comment if you're on YouTube, leave a rating review if you're on Spotify or Apple iTunes, et cetera.

This helps the show grow. It helps me bring more guests in. We have a tremendous lineup of people coming in, uh, men and women who've done incredible things, sharing their stories around peak performance, leadership, growth, sales, the things that are gonna help you, uh, grow as a person and grow your business. But they all check out comments, ratings, reviews. They check out all this information before they come on.

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Peace. Let's get back to the episode. I think that w- we have completely misconstrued the beauty of America, which is you get to believe and say whatever you want, with I have to accept what you believe and say, and those are two completely different things. And I think we get that a lot in our industry. T- taking this off of politics and coming back to, say, the way the industry is run, um, I've been talking a lot recently, and, and I'm interested in your take on this, that we need to recalibrate the way we view, uh, carriers as independent agents or, you know.

And I think for too long we've referred to carriers as partners. Carriers do not refer to agents as partners. Now, granted, I'm sure there's some carrier people listening going, "Whoa, Ryan, inter- " Bullshit. Yeah. When you actually have a conversation, you refer to your agents as your distribution plant, your distribution arm, et cetera.

That's what it's categorized on your P&L when you pay out commissions. That's who they are. Well, well- I believe- ... let me break it down the most simple way that I can. Yeah. If you were my partner, you would not be making decisions without me that impact me- Boom ... and you do it all the time.

Boom. There, there it is. So this is the recalibration that I've been talking about, and getting a substantial amount of pushback on this, is like I don't think we should ever refer to a carrier as a partner again, unless they're gonna buy into something like you said, but that's not the contract that we sign, right? Nope. So, like, you have carriers, well, you know, huge carriers that everybody has appointments with, who will literally just send you an email and say, "We're reducing your commission by two points on this particular line of business.

Have a nice day." That's your partner? That's a partner? Now- Yep ... what ... And, and this is, and this is where people lose their effing minds, and this is the part that I feel like we need to ...

I don't think anyone has to accept this idea, but people are literally, have been coming at me, and some people in DMs like, "You can't be saying that," and da-da. And I'm like, "We need to think about carriers as suppliers." I want my carriers to be honest with their viewpoint of me as a dis- distribution partner, and I want to get to be honest to them and say, "You're my supplier. I, that's how I view you. We have this contract.

I put profitable business with you. You send me commissions. If I hit a certain number per our contract, you pay me these contingencies. That's amazing, right? This is our relationship.

As long as you are supplying me the product and I can distribute that product for you, we can have an incredibly profitable, wonderful relationship. However, you are not my partner, because you can change your appetite, you can drop my appointment, you can change my commission structure, you can change my contingency structure. You can change any of those things at any time, and therefore, we are not partners." So, so think about this through this lens. They call us partners, right?

Do they? Like, like to us. Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep, yep, yep.

Like, like marketing rep comes in- Yeah ... and, and we're partners. Yeah. What kind of conversations are they consistently bringing to us? Tough ones, right? Yeah.

Generally speaking, is it easier to have a tough conversation with your partner or with the person that is distributing your product? Partner, there's like a, a camaraderie. Yeah. There's a buddy- there's like a, a friendship. There's a, there's a, uh, like, "Hey, we're buddies.

I know this is tough news, but we're partners. We're gonna work through this." When you delineate the relationship the way you're describing, now it's, "What's going on here?" Yeah. "We need to fix this.

Like, I've got customers," you know? And it- Yeah, it's a one-way street, and that means it's not a partnership. And, but, but- It's a one-way street ... but, but by doing it the way you're describing it versus, you know, the, the illusion of partnership, it makes for, it makes for a softer conversation with the agent when you think like, "We're all in this together," when the reality is no one's in this boat but you right now. And, and here's the other thing, dude. I think that if I th- if you think about your carriers as suppliers, what it allows you to do is remove the emotional connection to that carrier or the...

And this is what happens. People go, "Well, no, you don't understand, Ryan. I, I have this amazing, uh, relationship with XYZ carrier." And I'm like, "With the carrier or with the underwriter?" Because I completely believe that you have an amazing, probably even close to partnership-esque relationship with the underwriter, I believe that, maybe even an executive.

But what happens when n- that executive leaves or that underwriter, uh, uh, uh, finds a better job, or gets promoted and, or moves to another region, is no longer attached to you? Does that- Or they're just simply incentivized a little bit differently and now- Yes ... you're not the pretty pony anymore. Yes. And, and I'll tell you, this, this hit me, uh, uh, like a sack of shit about a, about, uh, a year ago with Rogue. I went to this carrier partnership meeting in New York, and it's a big to-do, and the CEO's there, and all the VPs, and it's glad-handing, and it's nice and ba-ba, and we're partners, partners, partners.

Okay, great. And then we get an account that comes in, and it's a big account for us, and it is right down the sweet spot for this particular carrier. Right, right down freaking Broadway. Like, there, n- there is, this is a home run account for this carrier. And submit it, ba, ba, ba, come back.

Uh, we actually get pricing, which s- Then some VP, right? So I have pricing, I have proposals, I have a verbal commitment from the, from the client, and then some VP in the carrier who I've never met, who they won't let me talk to, goes, "We don't want it." D- case over, case done. I've just spent a month, g- month of, month of back and forth. I've lost a month of work, right?

I've... This was a $60,000 revenue account, and, and, and just some guy somewhere s- in the company who I don't know said no. That carrier is not my partner. The underwriter that I worked with on a day-to-day basis, she was probably as close to a partner, 'cause she was very good to us, but the carrier itself is not your partner. They are not.

So- And by thinking about it as a supplier, and I'll be quiet. Sorry, I'm on, I'm on my freaking soapbox. No, no, no, dude. I wasn't supposed to be doing this. Rattle your roll, man.

I, I, I'm, I, this just fires me up. If we think about them as suppliers, what, what I believe it does for us is it allows us to recalibrate our brain to say, to not over-index emotionally into any one relationship, right? And w- and, and it basically allows me the, the, the distance emotionally to say, "Hey, look, I know you're coming in here and you're gonna blast me for more, for more premium, but I gotta be honest with you, this carrier over here and this carrier over here are doing just as good a job with the same amount of commission splits, and I kinda wanna feed them too. So, hey, you need to step your game up if you want more," right? Instead of they come in and they're, "Hey, we invited you to the ball game and did this, and come to..."

That is all, that's all, you know, foreplay for, for them just getting what they want when they want it. And, you know, th- this idea, dude, going back to our original, this, like, freaks people out. Like, literally their brain. This, like, breaks people's brains who have been in the industry for a long time. They can't fathom not thinking about their carriers as partnerships, and then they have to, like...

It's just, ah, it's so crazy how we get attached to these identities and these concepts, and we don't think through, you know, what it really means. So I was, uh, I was talking with CJ Hudsonpillar a little bit earlier today out of Tennessee. Yeah, yeah. And he has got a book with a carrier right now that, uh, that, that we both feel have overextended themselves a little bit and are trying to pull back a little bit of market share. And he is dealing with right now a account that is being dropped in the middle of Nashville.

Not like the outskirts, not in like, not in like the, the backwoods or the sticks or, you know, anything like that. Not like, you know, like, you know, like rural Tennessee. We are talking urban Nashville. And the carrier is dropping this household because they have officially deemed them a wildfire risk. There is no wildfire in the heart of Nashville.

That is, that is- Yeah ... just not a thing. And because this is not a partnership, there is no one to talk to. Yeah. The decision has been made. The ivory tower has done what it's done.

It doesn't matter how buddy-buddy he is with the marketing rep or the underwriter or anything like that, the decision was made. Yes. And that's not a partnership. Yeah. It's, it doesn't mean, and just so everyone who is literally has smoke coming out of their ears or feels like I'm blaspheming here, guys, one, I'm using this concept as micro- as a microcosm to kinda describe to you, um, some of these ideals that, that, that Mike is dealing with in terms of navigating this community and sharing concepts and working through these things that impact us.

And some of the things that these legacy concepts that we've been holding onto, 40 years ago- I would believe that your relationship with your carrier was v- was much more of a partnership. I mean, carriers would bend over backwards, they'd give you extra points. There were all kinds of backroom deals that you could get when you did production, and I honestly believe that it was a partnership. Today, in 2024, I just think we have to recalibrate our minds so that we can better position our agencies for success. Okay.

So- So- What- Yeah, go ahead ... so think about the way the world has, has changed over the last 35, 40 years. Think about how small the world has become. Mm-hmm. 30, 40 years ago, not every carrier was even aware of every insurance agent out there. As an insurance agent, you weren't aware.

So these relationships became so much more important. Yes. They weren't, they weren't, like, valued at a high- Dude, it's no different than the way we are in society today with our, with our romantic relationships. Yeah. Like, look how small the world has c- has become.

I ha- Dude, I have, I, I have the ability to contact every woman I have ever dated in my entire life, any person that I, like, any person I've ever had any kind of, any kind of physical relationship my entire life, but I've got a, a, a, a bevy of, of, of women that I've never had any kind of communication with, and I'm married, and I've got it all at my fingertips. Yeah. And so does every m- And, and, like, that is a diff- And, and, and take, take all that aside, push all that aside. As a single person in the world today, with all the dating apps- Mm-hmm ... we are so cavalier with, with who we're with and what value they br- Like, we don't need you. Like, we don't need you.

On to the next one. On to the next one. Swipe, swipe right, swipe left, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe. Yep. And we've got the ability to do that to a degree both as carriers and as agents.

Maybe not as agents so much right now in this current season, but when the, when the industry is, is, is hot and not, you know, not, not what we're dealing with right now. Like, it's very easy to, to be very cavalier and flippant about, "You know what? I don't like the way this carrier's treating me. I'm out." Uh, a- and right now we're experiencing it on the other end, that they, they don't like the way, you know, things have been going, so they're, they're dropping, they're dropping, you know, agents left and right and dropping products and appetites and all that.

But the last 35, 40 years as a society, as human beings, the, the accessibility to, you know, to, to options, and the ability to, to be fluid has, in my opinion, really eliminated a lot of people's almost obligation to loyalty that was once- Yes ... that was once a thing. Well, I think it's a wonderful way to put it. I think it speaks to the, the groups that we're a part of, large groups, the in- the smaller mastermind groups, the carriers that we're part of, our friendship relationships, the communities that we're part of inside our local area. You know, whether that's the country club community or the little league or the softball or whatever. Like, like, I feel there is a general sense of the minute...

You know, and again, I, I wanna, I wanna be clear in, in what I'm advocating for. I am advocating for incredibly strong, open, honest relationships with other entities that are willing to be honest as well, right? What I'm asking for is a carrier to say, "Look, we're gonna give you our best products, and we're gonna stay up, stay up to date on our appetites. But so you know, if the world changes, we might cut our appetites in half. Our pricing might double.

We may reduce your commission. Those are all options that are on the table. However, in a best case scenario, if you do your job, we're gonna do our best job. We'll stay open and communicate, and everybody will be fine." That's what needs to happen.

What, but what bothers me, and this goes for startup insurtechs who aren't honest about what their product can hono- can do, this goes for, uh, you know, consultants and, you know, I'm kinda moving into this coaching thing that I'm doing. I shouldn't say coaching thing, that diminishes what I'm trying to do. But like, you know, so I'm researching that, and there's, like, so much. Because optionality is so easy today, I feel like we are constantly misrepresenting exactly what we do with the hope that someone will buy into it. And it's like, I, that's not the kind of relationship that I think, it just, I don't think that works anymore.

I don't think the, the... I, I think you just ha- The people that are gonna win are the people that say, "Look, this is who I am. This is what I provide. If you like it, awesome. We'll have a great relationship.

If you don't, move on." Instead, everybody is trying to get everybody to like them and telling all these little half-truths in there about what they're actually gonna do, what the relationship is actually gonna be, and I feel like that's where all the negativity comes from, 'cause then everybody's not happy. Yeah. I'd rather have, you know, a small group of people incredibly happy with what I provide to them versus this enormous number of people where everyone's kind of quasi upset because no one's really getting what they want. Well, I, I think, uh, I think what ultimately sounds like a, a, a utopian scenario, difficult to pull off, is just the, the human element of it, right?

Yeah. So, like, within the organization, like, even if you could get the organization as a whole to, to agree to that level of transparency, you still within the organization have human beings that are being compensated via different incentives and whatnot that are always going to try and angle for themselves first because they're trying to feed their family. They're trying to, they're trying to get that next title. They're trying to, you know, climb up that corporate ladder. So, you know, even, even with the best of intentions, you still have that human element in the middle of all of it that will always throw a, a little bit of a, a, a stick in the spokes.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. All right, let's change topics a little bit. I, I just think the psychology behind these groups and creating culture and dealing with negative feedback and dealing with consent, you know, uh, uh, dis- ... discontenting viewpoints. I think it all, uh, I think it's something that we all deal with every day.

Some- and in some ca- I think in your case, it's very much, like, part of y- what you do. I think for other people it's, it's little touch points that waste brain cycles that we need to be aware of, right? They're things that, like, if we can avoid, you know, if we can avoid reacting to things, if we can avoid going down certain thought paths, we can save brain cycles and focus on valuable things. But okay, I wanna talk, I wanna switch, um, to you guys, uh, Insurance Soup, largest Facebook group, uh, uh, for insurance agents. Um, you now have, uh, Soup Live, which I had the, the pleasure of MC-ing, uh, last year.

It was an amazing event. Uh, uh, one of my favorite events I've been to in a long time. By, by and large 'cause we had a really good emcee. Oh, stop. Stop.

It's your, it's your frontman. It really is It was, it's just the, the energy, the people, the atmosphere. I, I, I just, I really enjoyed it. I, I just really did. I'm, I'm interested in kinda just talk me through you, you have this group, everything's virtual, right?

All these virtual relationships, and now you're bringing them into the real world. One, what is that like for you and Taylor, uh, uh, you know, taking this, this very virtual thing that you have and turning into something physical you can bro hug people, you know, and you're seeing their face, you're seeing their reaction to content. Like, what was that like and, um, and why did you decide to make that move in the first place? So, um, it's been freaking awesome. Like, get- getting everyone in the room together has been truly, truly special.

Not so much for, I mean, it's special for Taylor and I, but what I feel like, I feel like, like I'm having a Michael Scott moment right now. For me personally, it's like I g- I, I'm watching, I'm watching all my children, you know, come together. Not children. Yeah, yeah. But I, I, I don't look at them like, you know, like, like that.

But, like, when I, like, when, when we threw the first one, and all these people that we have had, you know, in, in masterminds, communities, or u- utilizing one of our products or services that, like, we see chatting with each other on Facebook on a regular basis, like people that we know have been friendly with each other online for three years, four years, six years, or whatever, when they all came into that room together and, I mean, dude, like the first year there were literal tears. Yeah. Literal tears from some of these people like, "Oh my God, I never thought I was actually going to meet you." Not me. Not me, not Taylor, the other agents in the room.

And seeing the power of that was, was, was truly very, very humbling, to say the least. But that, that's not the reason that we did it. Uh, you know, we were very fortunate the, the number of years before, you know, for y- you know, years, you know, years and years at this point, where we were getting invited to a lot of different events, whether, you know, whether it was to speak, or host panels, or, uh, you know, whatever the case was. And as we were going through the industry and going from event to event and all that kind of stuff, we saw stuff that we liked, and we saw stuff that we didn't like. And, uh, you know, ultimately we decided that, uh, I mean, Soup itself was asking us for years to throw a conference.

Like, "Please, get, let, let, let's get us all together." And like, I, I mean, just being completely transparent, for a while Taylor and I were just like, uh, seems like a giant headache, seems like a giant risk. And, uh, like, we, we may come across very however we do when we're online, and right now you, like you and I actually have a relationship with, you know, and whatnot, so, like, you, you get a very talkative version of me. But, like, neither one of us are traditionally the, the most outgoing, extroverted personalities. And like I'm, I'm able to do my thing online or whatever and, and, and, you know, you give me a little bit of space to gather my thoughts and I'm, I'm good.

But, like, being on all day, like when Soup Live is over, I need like a solid week to like get myself- Yeah ... back together. And, uh, a- and so for a while it was like the idea of actually throwing one of these was just kinda like, oh, geez, like I wanna meet everyone too, but like I don't want the pressure of all of it. I don't want... And so ultimately what wound up happening was after being to a number of the industry events, the audience begging and pleading with us for a while 'cause they wanted to all get together and meet each other and all that, and, you know, just, just having experiences at various industry events that like kinda turned us off a little bit, um, you know, we just decided that we were gonna try and do it our own way. Yeah.

And so, like, we, we don't try and profit on the event. We try and break even. We failed last year. We lost about 30 grand. We try and keep the sponsors to an absolute minimum.

We do eight to 10 sponsors. We actually have turned sponsors away, and it's not just like the first eight or 10. It's do we know you? Do you align with what we're do- you know, what we're doing? Do we know that you're delivering results to the agents?

You know, that, that type of thing. Um, and, you know, the, the, the two main things that, that we really honed in on was, number one, we didn't wanna have a lot of vendors. We've heard of a lot of events out there that have so many vendors that it becomes absolutely overwhelming. There's been rumors of events that actually have more vendors than attendees. Mm-hmm.

And like that to me is, that is disgraceful to both the vendors and to the, to the attendees. Like you have, you have taken the money from the vendors and provided them absolutely no opportunity for ROI, and you have taken all these people who have paid a lot of money to, to receive value and essentially inserted them as, you know, essentially the, the hunted on the, uh, the wild hunt from the vendors, you know, at that event, who are now wildly trying to get ROI off of this very small amount of attendees. Uh, that was one thing that we absolutely hated, and the other thing that we absolutely hated was we came across events where it was, I mean, uh, like point blank, we were invited to speak at an event, this is going back to, to 2019, and we, we agreed to it. And, uh, and it was someone that we were, that we were looking to get to know and that we hadn't really built a relationship with yet, and we were all excited about it 'cause it was an opportunity to, to, to, you know, shake hands with someone that we wanted to get to know. And about two weeks before we were supposed to speak, out of nowhere in our inbox we got an invoice.

And- I called the dude up and I was like, "We just got an invoice from you, uh, looking for money for us to speak. Um, we never had this conversation, but I waived my fee to come speak for free for you because I want to get to know you. But you're billing me right now, and we never had that conversation. So what's that all about?" "Oh, I'm sorry.

Maybe my s- maybe my sales guy didn't make it totally clear," da, da, da, da, da. "Well, let me make something very clear. You don't have us at your event if you think that we're paying." And, you know, ultimately we didn't have to pay and, and, and we were brought back another time or whatever, but it was evident from our experience not only being asked to pay, but seeing the message that was being delivered from stage by the people that obviously paid, that everyone in the audience was simply there. They, they had paid to come watch commercials.

And, like, sorry, that just doesn't sit right with me. Like, we, we as professionals that attend these events are paying good money, hard-earned money. We are, in many cases, hopping on a plane. We're paying for a hotel. We are, if the event is $500, $1,000, by the time everything's all said and done, you're 2,500 to $3,000 in, and you show up for a commercial?

Like, to me, that's wildly offensive. So- Yeah. I'm with you ... so that was one of the things that with Soup Live we, uh, we made it a point as well. There is no selling from stage. In fact, uh, Taylor and I, every single, well, every single year, 'cause like, like we've been doing it for years and years.

We've done two of them so far. But, like, you know, the first two years, we brought backup talks to give to the audience because we told all, we, we told all the speakers, like, "You start selling from stage, we're cutting your mic and we're gonna get up there and just start speaking about something else." So, like, we are very, very firm on that. And, uh, what's been great about it is, uh, everyone who has hit the stage, regardless of whether it's a normal everyday agent that's got something cool to share, or it is someone that has got a product or service for the industry that is probably chomping at the bit to tell everyone all about it, uh, everyone that has hit the stage at our event is delivering value without any kind of ask, without any kind of offer, without any kind of real product, uh, conversation at all. It is just people up there delivering value, teaching, and, uh, and getting agents on, giving agents the ability to go back to their agency and implement something that'll give them some positive lift.

Yeah, I, and I'll tell you, you can always see the difference in the energy that the speakers bring to stage when they're doing it for, uh, one, if you're, you, you know, I, I think there's really two formats, and there's the format where you, you don't pay the speakers, right? And you as an event have to be giving them some value back. However, uh, whi- which is a, which is a trade a lot of speakers will make. I've made it. Um, I made it to MC the event, right?

I wanted to get to know you guys. I wanted to get to know your audience. I had heard amazing things. I wanted to be there in person. Awesome.

No problem. Had a tremendous time, and we're talking about it now. I, and that's a value trade that a speaker has to make. The other thing is if, if you pay them. If you flip it to, and this is why I would never allow, and when I put on Elevate, I was har- and this, this is probably part of the reason that I got fired from Trusted Choice and Agency Nation, was I, I was, like, draconian in my belief structure around Elevate.

Like, that was my baby. And, you know, we went 315 year one, 825 year two, and then all of a sudden after year two, you know, people started injecting their opinions and what we needed to do to maximize our profit on the event. And, uh, similar to you, I think we lost, year one we lost, like, 40 grand. I think year two we lost, like, 30 grand-ish, you know? And, and this, and what I said to them was, "I wanted to get to break even and past, for sure," but I was like, "This is a year two event.

And would you pay 30 grand for all the promotion of our brand that we have had over the course of a year, including 825 people in person and all the vendors? Like, would you pay 30 grand for that?" Like, if I said, "Hey, I'm gonna get you this many brand touches over the course of a year," would you pay 30 grand for that? Yes, you would, a thousand out of a thousand times. So- That is exactly how Taylor and I have been looking at this.

We don't need the profit because what we're doing is we're getting everyone in the room. They're building the know, like, and trust factor, and ultimately the, th- that all comes out in the wash. Yeah. That's, uh- And, and it, it felt, you know, and I, and I mean this purely 100% as a compliment, like, as having built Elevate and whatever, being at Soup had very similar energy to me, which I think is another reason why I really loved it. Um, but my point being, when someone is coming on their own accord, like, you, like I have decided- Yes ... to waive my fee and come speak 'cause I wanna be at your event and/or you're, you're paying me a commensurate fee with what I think I should be there, you get a wholly different presentation than when you're, when someone is paying to be there.

Which is why, to get back to my point, which I got off track on, I refuse to allow vendors to speak. Absolutely, positively refuse. Like, um, you know, I, like, uh, Billy Williams was one of the speakers at Elevate 2018, and I wanted Billy ex- I wanted the audience exposed to him 'cause he hadn't really done a lot in the independent space at, on a wide scale at that point. And, um, and I said to him, "Dude, I have no problem at the end you mentioning what you do and where people can connect with you. Just don't make it a pitch."

No problem. He absolutely crushes, right? That to me is fine. There's a difference between that and, "Let me give you 45 minutes on all the reasons I'm amazing and you should pay me money for whatever it is that I'm selling." And as vendors rightfully can't help themselves but do that when you put them on stage.

Now, if someone inside a vendor is a subject matter expert- And you can get them to commit to talking on that topic without pitching, and maybe just a mention at the end to where people can learn more. Again, you have to trust them, but sometimes that can come back in your face. So it's, it's very, very difficult, um, and y- and this is why I think, uh, for those who wanna be speakers, like getting involved, uh, particularly in events like, in events like yours or in local state association events where maybe you can get in and, and do d- you know, do a breakout session, do a small little workshop for free, whatever. Start to get some touchpoints and record yourself because, like, you're not putting someone on stage if you even have an, a, an inkling that they're gonna start pitching, right? And unless you've seen it or heard it or have enough touchpoints from other people, you're not gonna bring them in.

You're just gonna be like, "Hey, sorry." And that's the way we were, and that's the way I think a lot of well-run events that people, people want to keep coming back to, right? The, the reason I think events fall apart, which so many do, is because they start falling victim to how do I maximize profit? How do I get more vendors involved? How do I bup, bup, bup, bup.

And the people can smell it, and they just stop coming back, and it just, you just see it over and over and over again. Well, you know, funny enough, it's the, it's literally the exact same, same thing that we do inside of Insurance Soup as well. Mm-hmm. We don't allow the recruiting, we don't allow the vendors, we don't allow the carriers, we don't allow carrier representation. And the reason for it is because at the end of the day, when you've got those types of people in a room with a bunch of agents, they just can't help themselves.

Yeah. They just cannot help themselves. They're, they are, they are in, they are i- Like, when, when a vendor sneaks into Soup and they start DM'ing agents, thinking they're being slick or whatever, I know that they are sitting at their computer going, "There's 53,000 of them in here." Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. "I'm gonna make so much money."

Yeah, yeah. You know? And, and that is what is happening when they show up at a well-attended event. They're going, they're going, "Look at all the agents, guys." Mm-hmm.

"Let's get out there. We brought our, our youngest, most attractive people, you know, that, that, that we've got on staff here. They're super outgoing. Go out there and chat 'em all up, guys." And, you know, when, when they're not allowed to do that, and it has to come from a place of value.

And, and, you know, you, you bring up Billy Williams. I don't know, I don't know, and I, I mean this respectfully. I, I don't mean, I don't mean this in any other way. Like, I, I, I, I wonder if there's, like, a generational thing where, um, because my personal experience has been with, um, a guy like Billy, who I, who I love and respect tremendously. Uh, same, same about the next two, next two names I'm gonna throw out.

Tom Hegna on the life insurance side, Troy Corizgon. You know, I, I love those guys. I respect them. They are, they are stalwarts, uh, or stal- storewarts. What's the word I'm looking for?

They are, they are- Stalwarts ... there's the word. Of, of our industry. They are leaders. They are, they are, they are deserving of the, the names and the respect and the accolades that they have achieved over the years. But within the Insurance Soup community, I've encouraged them to, like, step up.

Like, you know, th- like, they wanna hear from you guys. I've, I've had to remove so much content from them because there's a, like, there's, like, an inability to not, like- Yeah ... and, uh, and there's just so much value to give. And I, I've always wondered if, uh, if that's, like, a generational thing because it seems to be, it seems to be, like, the, the, the people that I d- that I deal with that are, that are in that, that stage of their career- Mm ... versus, you know, versus some of the younger people. Yeah, it's a completely different... I'll tell you what it is, dude, 'cause, um, so I, uh, I consume a massive amount of marketing content because I'm just interested in it.

It's, it's part of who I am. And it's direct mail mentality, right? Like, if you can only send one piece of mail a month to your target audience to get them to buy your thing, to put a, to write hand, write a check and stick it in the mail and send it to you with how many units you want or whatever, you have to give value and ask. Give value and ask. Give, and, and that is an entire, there's an entire generation of coaches, uh, marketers, salespeople, that that is just how they were trained.

And frankly, I think that while today I think premium, the freebie, the lead magnet is, is, is a, is much more a part of that process, right? The I have to get the, the, the Gary Vaynerhook jab, jab, jab, right hook. Yep. Um, I also believe that our generation of marketers, and maybe not even me and you, maybe it's a little younger, too, um, the pendulum is swinging sometimes a little too far to free, right? We're too willing to give everything away for free and, and we don't ask as much.

And I'll tell you, this is a big problem for me. I have a couple mentors that I work with. I actually just had, uh, every wen- every other Wednesday I have a, um, a mentoring call, um, uh, with a guy that I've been working with for more than three years, and he's become a great friend, and we kinda mentor each other on different things. And, uh, and he is always saying to me, "You undervalue yourself. You know?

Like, you, you, you're, you're putting a price tag of this, and really it should be here. And if you get two less things but, but you get it at this price, like, this is what it's worth. Like, it's, it's not, you're not, uh, there's no, uh, it's not heroic to, to," let's say it's speaking events, "to do three speaking events at this price when you should be getting one speaking event at this price." He's like, "At this point in your career." Like, 10 years ago, whatever.

So I think that, I think right around your and my age generation and below, w- we have to be careful that we haven't swung too far to the f- give stuff away for free, give stuff away for free. For sure. Like, but I think the other side of it is, and this is where we see the difference, is their generation was jab, right hook, right hook, right hook, jab, right, you know, and, and we're just like jab, jab, jab, jab. Right. So, um, if you haven't read that book, that's a good book for sales and marketing guys.

Absolutely. Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook by Gary Vaynerchuk. So, um, I wanna be cognizant of your time, but I, I have one more question for you. Um, and you know, I see- I think so much of success is just outlasting your competition. And I, I honestly have never quite understood the territorialism that so many people have, like, you know, I, I, I, I mean, you know, just like there are people, and I'll just use their name, like the IOA group, like you're either an IOA member or you're an Insurance Soup member, and I'm like, "I don't understand."

Like, these are all, like amazing people, and you can learn from all these different groups. Why are we, like picking teams? It doesn't... You can be part of this group, and you can be part of this group, and share here, and get to know these people, and, you know, get life insurance advice from this group over here. Yet we tend to be so territorial.

Um, and unfortunately, uh, in, in the competition of that, it seemingly is, is just outlasting your competition is als- ultimately how we're successful. Totally. And you guys seem to have found a formula that allows you to, and again, y- you never know what the future will bring, although I s- for my own- You want, you want the formula? Just- You want the actual formula? Yeah, I'm interested in the formula for, for outlasting.

Taylor has developed into a brilliant business mind, truly. I have got really bad ADHD, and that's our, our combination. Yeah. Like, like throughout the day I hop into, I hop into Soup and it's just like, where, where is my mind at right this second? All right, the audience, you know, the audience agrees with me, doesn't agree with me, I'm keeping it moving, I'm keeping it fun and upbeat and all that kind of stuff.

And like, and I work with, I, I'm working primarily with agents throughout the day, building relationships with agents and, and all that kind of stuff. He is working, uh, more on the business side of things. He's working with carriers and vendors, and he is building the industry relations side while I am working on- Yeah ... the agent side of the, uh, the equation. I love that. I mean that, and, and to be honest with you, getting to witness your partnership firsthand, how you guys interact with each other, the fact that, uh, you seemingly are willing to push back on each other but still have a good natured, you know, still are good natured about it, and can have a lot- Oh, we fought like, we, we fought like cats, cats and dogs throughout, throughout our career here and there.

Yeah, yeah. And I, and I think that's what you have to do. I mean, I, I, you know, I think there are a lot of people that, and, and I've even seen it, unfortunately, that when they have those arguments, they just decide to give up, right? They're like, "Oh, we're fighting. We're not a good fit."

Like, you know, I guess maybe when for, for those listening who have partners or are part of groups or whatever, when, when you guys had those arguments, uh, disagreements, whatever, how were you able to continue to be so committed to each other to keep pushing through on the mission? Super, super simple, man. Super simple. It was a very, it was a very early conversation after a very early argument, and it was, "We're both trying to accomplish the same thing here. We're both trying to improve the business.

We're just not agreeing on how." Yeah. "So like, we're both trying to get to the same place. It's okay that we don't see eye to eye here, because at the end of the day, our goal is the same." Our, like the, the, the methodology, the, the route that we take to get there, all of that, sure, we can bang heads all we want, but the fact that we've got the common goal, we've both got our eyes set on the same thing, like we're able to understand that like...

I mean, it's, it's good. It's good for us not to see eye to eye. Yeah. If, if every time I said, "I think we should do it like this," Taylor was like, "Definitely, bro," like, who needs the echo chamber? Yeah.

Like, dude, I, like a lot of people look at what Taylor and I have built, and they say to themselves like, "Oh, those guys have, uh, you know, must, must really, you know, must be really good at something or really talented or, you know, with the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And like, to your point, man, I really think, like it, it- it's just been consistency. Yeah. It has just been consistency. There is not a, there is not a special talent or ability that either one of us have that should give us anything that, you know, we've been lucky enough to build along the way.

It's just showing up every single day with a positive attitude, looking to be in the right rooms with the right people. Yeah. A- and I'll throw two things, just as an, a third party observation and getting to know you guys in the last year, is that one, it is incredibly obvious that you authentically give a shit about the people in your group. Like it just- Oh, yeah, man. 1,000%.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and the big reason for it, I mean, we haven't even really got- gotten into this like, you know, why Soup started or whatever. A big reason that, that Soup started was because Taylor and I felt as if there was a lot of overpromising and under-delivering from the carriers to the agents, and we were like, "It's time for transparency." Yeah.

"It's time to get everyone in the room and keep everybody that is at the carrier level that, get them all out. This is a room where all of us are gonna speak very openly, and if that means that someone's gonna get shit on heavily, so be it. But you know what? Like, we're not going to allow the carriers or the vendors or anything like that, like you're not going to..." Uh, it was just on, it was Kat Williams just said it when, when he was doing his, uh, his spill, his, his tell-all.

Something to the ef- Yeah ... something to the effect of like, like if you didn't want, if you, if you don't want the narrative to... I, I'm, I'm, I'm totally wording it wrong, but essentially it's, uh, it, it's like if you didn't want the narrative to come out, perhaps you should have treated them better. Yeah. And, uh, you know, how we went into to Soup, uh, you know, was, was like, let's make this a place where it can be totally transparent and we can make each other aware of where the good opportunities are. We can make each other aware of what to stay away from, and all that kind of stuff.

So that was kinda like the genesis of it. And like, like I, I... It's a true passion. It's a true... It's like for me- Yeah ... personally, if I am able to, what once started as like keep agents out of harm's way and has evolved now to more like help get you to the Promised Land, that's what I really love, because I know what that entrepreneurial journey is like.

I know the pitfalls. Dude, like I have fallen on my face and made so many mistakes and had, a- and, and like- I, I have made mistakes, I have felt slighted, I have been burned, I have been stolen from. Uh, like, like the list goes on and on and on. I like- a- and I feel like I, I feel like, uh, you know, every entrepreneur has an element of this in their journey. Oh, for sure.

But with the amount that I have felt chewed up and spit out before I really hit my stride here with Soup, like for me the passion has been like help others avoid some of the shit that I've been through. Yeah. And it, and it's authentic. Uh, like that's something that truly does drive me. Yeah.

And, and you know, I wanted to say it because, you know, I think it, it will hit home more for the audience listening, you know, hearing someone else say it. But it, uh, I, I do not abide people who are fake. I just, I just, it's like one of the largest turn offs. I like literally can't even be around them. Um, and I, and you know, I think you guys, a- and then not even that you guys have an inkling of that, it's the exact opposite.

It is so, especially me, you know, coming to Soup Live, it just from the moment I walked in it was so obvious to me how much those people being there, the experience, the experience they were having, how much it meant to you guys, how much that group meant to you guys, uh, I think that's the key. Can I embarrass, can I embarrass myself? Sure, yeah. Yeah, go ahead. When Soup Live kicked off, the very first one couple years ago, uh, we hosted a Texas Live in Arlington and, uh, the way that it's set up is it's, uh, there, it, it's basically two tiers.

You've got the main floor with the stage, and then you can go upstairs and there's like a, there's like a, a upper deck or whatever. And when, when things kicked off for Soup Live and Troy Corzo got and, uh, took the stage and kicked us off, I went upstairs to just get a view of like the entire thing. I wanted to see how many people were here, what's it look like. Like this is a, this is a, it was a big moment for us, you know? Yeah, yeah.

Like our first conference or whatever. And uh, like I, I'm getting chills even, even talking about it right now. I got up there, I looked down at everybody, and I had to sit in the chair and I just started to cry. Yeah. And like, 'cause it was just a, it was a very, it was a, it was a very, and, and you, you're the second person that, that knows, well now, now a lot more people know about this.

Taylor's the only one that knows, that knew about this previous. But it was just so overwhelming looking down at, you know, the, the 325, 350 people that were there. Uh, did you do that or did I do something to cause balloons? I have no idea. Should I, can I make balloons ha- oh my goodness.

I, I, I'm making balloons happen. Uh, but in that moment I was, uh, I was so overcome with the amount of people that had come out, uh, 'cause like, uh, like people are away from their families, people are, you know, spending mo- like a lot of them are there and maybe financially like it's a stretch for them to be there, and it's because of this event that we were able to put together and the trust that people had given us and all of that. And it's just a very, very, uh, I mean dude, like I was talking to Carrie Bell Wallace, uh, not that long ago, and like she was, you know, she was talking about Soup Live in a very similar manner and it's like, it's like dude, I f- I fell over putting my pants on like a couple weeks ago. Like I was putting, like I was like getting the second leg and I was like fell over on the bed and it's like these people come out for me. Yeah.

And like I, like I am like, I like, I'm, I'm the guy at like 11:00 o'clock at night with a bag of Cheetos on my stomach, you know? It's like, it, it, it's like, it's like, it, it's, it's just a very, very humbling, very- It's amazing. Yeah. And dude, it comes back to the fact that everything you've said today, I think it's just so obvious again how much that you care, Taylor cares, and I think that's where people wanna be. I, and, and I look at my own decisions and the groups and the people I follow, like th- you know, there are people that I follow even, even online that I don't know that I've never met who I don't even necessarily agree with or don't even really particularly care for their style, but man I believe that they believe w- what they're saying and they're saying it for reasons that I believe are positive, right?

Like they're- Right ... they believe that this viewpoint they're sharing it not to get traffic or to win some award or get another follower. They're saying it to be helpful because this is what they believe or their experience has taught them. And I would rather follow that person who maybe I don't 100% agree with their viewpoint, but I believe they believe it and are trying to be helpful versus somebody who's polished and crisp and has every, you know, David Ogilvy-esque line perfectly written in their copy and the, you know, the graphics and all that. Like you know, I, it's funny, I saw this guy that today, uh, I was doing some YouTube research, uh, for um, a coaching client of mine and I was, and I found this person who ranks for a keyword they wanted to rank for. So I'm like, "Ah, this is interesting."

I'm looking through click-through and I go to his Instagram and like th- there's this dude and he's an influencer, and you know, he's got like 7,000 Instagram followers and he's got this picture of like living the whatever life and he's, and it's just a picture of his wrist with a watch on it and it looks like a Piaget. And I zoom in and I'm like, "No, that's a Pivot. That's $150 Piaget knockoff watch that you're wearing in a photo that looks like, you know, something you'd see like in a Rolex commercial- Yeah ... with like this language around it." I'm like, "This is fucking bullshit." Like you could buy that shit at Macy's, you know, with a gift card.

Like you know, not that there's anything wrong with having a $150 watch. I'm not trying to knock that, but like the way it was played off was so, in my opinion, insincere and fake that like I will never trust another thing that you say ever because I saw that. Because you would take that picture and not make fun of the fact that you are, if you took that picture in a different way, there was a way to promote that watch- If that's what you wanna do, in a way that I believe is very authentic. The way he did it was not. And, and it was like that right there, bam, never again.

Like I'll- Right ... I'll never take what you say seriously again. And again, not that you're pitching watches or whatever, but the idea is I think so many of these groups try to be something they're not, try to put on a, um... And, and this goes for all kinds of different things, associations, carrier gr- all kinds of different things, you know, mastermind groups, et cetera. Just be authentic to who you are, give a shit, listen.

And this is the other thing that I, that I think that, and, and I wanna be cognizant of our time and, and, and, uh, have people learn more. Um, I think the other thing you guys do really well is I think you listen to your community really well. Thank you. And, and that to me is a testament to, it's a, it's a byproduct, a derivative of the first thing, which is giving a shit, is, is not just telling them what they need to know or shoving another product down their throat. It's listening to what they need and trying to match products, vendors.

Like, um, you know, you were with Wes because I, I think you guys have something going with NCBA. Like that's listening to your community, going out, finding a, finding someone that you believe, that you trust, and then presenting them in a real and authentic way to, to the people who follow you and say, "If you need this, it's now here for you." Yeah. That is completely different than some backhanded deal where you're promoting somebody that you have some interest in, but, you know, you try to play it off like you don't. Like that, that shit- I, I, I don't- People can smell that ...

I, I, I don't, I don't know if Soup is, uh, is aware of it. I, I, I would, I would, I, I would imagine the casual, the casual member is not. Uh, we do not have a single affiliate deal. Yeah. Anything that we, anything that we bring, we either own 100% of or have invested in because we believe in.

That's what I mean. That's, I, that, that to me, that's being authentic, being honest, being transparent with your group, and going out and finding solutions for them versus I think what so many- If, if, if, if you're in Insurance Soup and you're watching this right, listening to this right now, we are compensated on every product and service that we talk about in there. We're not pretending that we're not. Yep. Like it is- And- It is what it is, but we, we do believe that we're bringing you the best version of everything that we- Yeah.

Dude, that's the way it should be. Like I, and, and, and I hope I was, I wasn't trying to blow you guys up. I was trying to say like- Oh, no ... I think that's the- More, more. We're, we're transparent about it.

That, that- Yeah, that's the way- That's- ... it should be done. There, it should be, it is perfectly fine to sell people things. Perfectly fine. Totally. Just be upfront and honest about, about why, right?

"Hey, we invested in this company. We did this," or, "We formed this partnership. Here's exactly how we're compensated, but I did this because I think this is the best thing for you, but..." And then people don't give a shit. They, they, they almost respect you more and are more interested and will listen more because now they understand where your head is at versus these like, "I'm gonna promote this product, but I'm not gonna tell anybody that I got, you know, advisor shares," and that shit happens all the time.

Yep. And I think it's disgusting. Yeah. But, um, dude, we, we've been chatting for a very long time. I, obviously, I'm a big fan of what you guys are doing.

Um, where can people, if they're not part of Soup and they're eligible to join, where do they go find out more information? Where can they connect with you, et cetera? Yeah, just, uh, just do a search on Facebook for Insurance Soup, and you'll find the group. There's 53,000 of us in there right now, and, uh, just join. Make sure you answer the questions.

People that don't answer the questions to join the group generally don't get in. Uh, and if you are watching this and you are a vendor, recruiter, uh, carrier, or anything like that, uh, we prefer you don't get in. If you do get in, understand that, uh, you got a target on your back and it's just a matter of time. But as far as Soup Live, you can head on over to Soup Live 2024. Uh, we'd love to see you there.

Actually, Ryan, you're, you're gonna be, uh, you're gonna be presenting this year. Yep. We're, uh, super excited to have you and, uh, and, and, you know, all the value that you deliver, of course. But, um, Insurance Soup on Facebook is really the best place to start. If you're looking to connect with me personally, you know, Facebook is also the best place to find me.

I mean, uh, I know, I know, you're an inbox zero guy, aren't you? No. No. Oh, you're not? I think, I think you're- I'm not ... one of those inbox zero guys.

No. Uh, I'm easiest to find on Facebook because I'm, I'm, I'm not the easiest to keep up with- Inbox 110 ... on my inbox. I, I am inbox 100,110 is what I am right now. Yeah. So I'm a little less than that.

Right now I'm carrying 26 emails, but I'm not a, I'm not an inbox zero guy. You'll get there. That, that said, I do find the important ones, and my, uh, my VA does get a lot of, uh, get everything that needs to get to me over to me. But, uh, if you're looking to actually connect and not just be something that I have to get back to, like I, like right now, just since this, since this podcast has started, like I've got, I've got nine people to get back to on my Messenger. Yeah.

Wow. Like Messenger, Messenger's the way to find me. Awesome. Dude, I'm gonna let you get back to them. I appreciate the hell out of you.

I wanna just close this by saying, uh, getting to know you and Taylor and, and just the small part that I've been in your ecosystem has been, uh, uh, something I'm, I'm very happy about and, uh, and blessed. And, uh, I wish you nothing but, nothing but success, and I can't wait to be part of Soup Live 2024. It's gonna be amazing. Thanks, brother. Appreciate your friendship.

Yeah. Be good. I'm going to Shaboom. Close twice as many deals by this time next week. Sound impossible?

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