How to Navigate the Nuances of Political Conversations with Eric Garcia

In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. Hello everyone, and welcome back to the show. Today we have a tremendous episode for you, a conversation with Eric Garcia, founder of Garcia Financial Group. You may know him from his podcast, "Stuff About Money," and his brand, Plan Wisely. Eric is one of my favorite people because we are able to have conversations that I believe would normally be combative, uh, in our current environment, the way people speak to each other, the way people think about those who may disagree with some of their, uh, ideals or some of their, uh, some of the, the, the components of their belief structure.

Uh, oftentimes these conversations become very combative, and what I wanted to have with Eric, uh, was a conversation around, in this case, we talk specifically about politics. And what I wanted to show you, the audience, is that when you respect someone, when you care about someone, even if they disagree with your viewpoint, you can have a very productive, very interesting, very engaging conversation around topics that are normally combustive. And, you know, Eric and I don't align on all things. We don't see, um, different political issues from the same vantage point. However, I appreciate his opinion.

I know his opinion is coming from a good place. I know he's a good actor, and we're able to discuss all these things and have a tremendous time doing it. And, you know, honestly, and I, and I share this in the show, I think that, um, I do not think that it is a virtue to act as if you don't pay attention or don't comment on politics. I'm not saying you need to, but for so long in our society, in an effort to, to just find peace in our lives, which I completely understand that part of it, we have stuck our head in the sand, we have kept our mouths closed, we have looked the other way as those who were loud and extreme spoke for us. And it is my belief that it is, you know, our obligation as individuals, as those with opinions, as those who live and are citizens of this country to, to not necessarily shout from the mountaintops, that's not what I'm saying, but to have a vantage point, to, to take ownership of our opinion of the way our country is being led and the things that are happening in it, and to have a perspective, and I wanted to share that.

I don't care if you agree with my opinion or you agree with Eric's or you fall somewhere in the middle. Uh, I will tell you that what I hope you guys take away, and, and I am trying to cultivate more, is a sense of openness. Uh, Bruce Lee, I just read Bruce Lee's "Striking Thoughts," and he has this incredible concept that he kind of attacks from a bunch of different angles. But, uh, essentially the idea is the value of the cup is its emptiness. And I wanna start to cultivate that idea more in my life as I continue on my own journey to peak performance and, and to being the best version of myself.

And in that way, I wanna have more conversations with people who have opinions that I don't necessarily agree with, 'cause I wanna better understand those opinions, and I wanna have those conversations in a way that is productive and compassionate and understanding and hopefully fun. Uh, because there is no way that we should or that we were built to always agree with each other. But I do think it is our obligation to find ways to be civil and understanding and to give grace to each other despite our differences. And I hope that this conversation is an example of that. And to that end, my friends, if you find value in this conversation, as I've said on many podcasts before, I don't run ads on this podcast.

I don't run ads on purpose because I don't want to ever be driven in one direction or another. And the value of this podcast to you, I hope, and your return of that value is only in that you share the podcast or you go on Apple, you go on Spotify, you leave us a rating or review. That helps more people find this show. Sharing the show helps you, helps more people find the show. Even if you share the show to dissent against something I say or to, to, to disagree with something I say, I think that's fine.

The more people that find this podcast, that listen to these ideas, the more people we can bring in, we can gather more information, and ultimately figure out f- to our own unique selves, our own unique belief systems, how we become the best version of ourselves. So if you love the show, please share it or go on Spotify, go on Apple, leave us a rating and review. And, uh, for that, I give you nothing but love. Let's get on to Eric Garcia. Before we get there, though, I just wanna talk about something you brought up and have you share maybe a little more thought on this.

Mm-hmm. You said you think it's incredibly healthy and important that we, uh, that we continue to continually challenge our thought processes. Mm. Yeah. Maybe expand on that a little bit, 'cause I, I agree with you, but I'm very interested in why you think that's so important and maybe how you do it.

Yeah. Um, so as humans, we have, uh, uh, shortcuts, the, these heuristics. We call them heuristics, right? In the psychology world, like these shortcut... In the financial space, we have these heuristics, these shortcuts, right?

The rule of 72, how fast will it take my money to double? Um, right? These, these really kinda quick things because it takes-- We don't wanna waste brain energy, right? We're lazy. Humans are lazy in general.

We wanna find the fastest way to do things. So, um, there was a day and age where physically, you know, we're talking about staying fit, you had to be physically fit to operate. To, to be able to, to, to operate in this world hundreds and hundreds of years ago, if you were overweight and out of shape, you didn't survive. Right? But we're in a world today where our minds aren't...

You know, we, we make money with our minds these days, right? And we can get really lazy in our thinking processes. We get stuck in these ruts where we start to believe things that might not even be true. Mm-hmm. Uh, we start to believe half-truths.

Um, and if we're not critically thinking through things, we can shortchange decisions that we make. We make, we make poor decisions. So that to say, I think it's really important that in the same way you go to the gym to, you know, to work out your biceps, um- I don't do a lot of curls, actually. They're just natural ... to work out your, you know, your, your hamstrings- ... right? Your, your lower back.

I've seen you deadlifting. Um, right? In the same way you go to the gym to do that, I think we need to be doing the same thing with our minds. Mm-hmm. And if we, if we just constantly read things that are in agreement with us, we're in our little echo chambers, and we're never challenged, and we never become sharp.

Right? One of my favorite proverbs is, and, and most people have probably heard this, "As iron sharpens iron," so one person should sharpen another. If you've ever seen the process of iron becoming sharper, it's a very, uh, dramatic, painful, I would imagine, right, sparks experience, but that's how iron gets sharper. So all that to say is if I want to become sharper in my thinking, it's really important for me to have conflict. Um, when I say conflict, I don't mean, like, like bad conflict, per se.

It's really important for me to be challenged in my thinking. So for example, so for example, um, let's say, um, let's say I'm pro-life, okay? That I, I believe abortion's bad. It should be, it should be abolished. And I want to, I want to grow in my, in what I believe.

I want to be confronted with the best possible pro-choice arg- pro-choice argument out there. Mm-hmm. Like, I wanna know, not the straw man argument, not like, "Oh, you're pro-choice. You don't believe... You think all, you know, you think we should kill babies."

Right? That's, that's... If you've ever talked to someone who's pro-choice and really listened, that's not where they're coming from. Not all of them, in particular. So, like, I want to be challenged.

Like, I want to know what your best argument for pro-choice is. I want to know what your best arg- pick, pick your topic du jour, right? It could be how you manage your business, right? I want to be challenged, and I want to hear your best argument against what I'm doing. And what I find is that makes me...

Sometimes it moves me, right? Man, I've been holding onto this for too long. I need, I need to let go of some things that, that aren't relevant or that are, that are hurting me. Um, and then sometimes it, it strenghtens, it strengthens what I believe already. So if we don't take time to be challenged, then we'll never, we'll never, we'll never grow.

So look- It's like... So, so- Go ahead ... let me, let me leave you this one a- give you this one more analogy. I love planting things in my garden, okay? If you've ever seen... If you follow my Facebook, you see I'm, I'm planting things.

I love, um, uh... I just planted an avocado. I'm really excited about it, right? If you take a plant and you plant a plant from seed in a greenhouse, right? Protected from the elements.

No heat, you know, no wind. That plant will grow. Okay? And it'll grow nice. The second you expose it to elements, it's probably gonna die.

But if I take that same plant and I plant it outside, exposed to the elements, and it withstands hurricane winds and the s- the h- the heat and the cold, that thing is growing deeper roots, and it's gonna become a stronger plant. It's gonna be a healthier plant. It's the same thing with our thinking. If I live in a very protected bubble... This is why, look, this is why you s- you see this all the time.

Um, people who grew up in very, um, restrictive households, maybe, you know, maybe a particular, uh, faith, uh, they're not exposed to, to different ways of thinking, and they go off to college, and they, and they go, they go buck-ass wild- Yeah ... 'cause they, they've never had, they've never had to deal with adversity. They've never had to deal with other ways of thinking, and then all of a sudden like, "Oh, my gosh. What, what is this?" So anyway, all that to say, um, I think being challenged is not a bad thing at all. I think this is one of the most important concepts in our society today and, and things that we need to talk about, um, a- as, as a group, as a collective, as, as individuals thinking through our own lives.

And, and I w- I wrote a bunch of things down that you said, and I, I couldn't agree more with what you're saying. Um, o- o- one clarifying question for you- Mm-hmm ... before I move into just a few other thoughts that I had. What is bad conflict? 'Cause you said, you know, "We need to have conflict in our life," and then you did a- Yeah. Um- Would be a preface because you said it afterwards, but, uh, you said, "But n- not bad conflict." What, what constitutes...

H- how do you delineate between good conflict and bad conflict? Yeah, okay. So I'm, I'm, I'm... This is not thought out at all, so, uh- That's okay ... but I, I would say bad conflict is where, let's say you and I... And, and let's just kind of keep it in the context of you and I are, are arguing about some position of faith or some position- Yeah ... of politics, right? 'Cause those are the two things that, that are the worst, right?

I would say if, if we're entering the conversation and not, not in good faith, then I would say that's bad conflict. And that's what you see online, right? You see people engaging in conversation or, or, or argument or b- en- engaging in arguments, and it's not in good faith. So for those who may not know that term, what do you mean in good faith? In good faith means like, "Ryan, I disagree with you, and I think you're an idiot and a fool."

Yeah. That's, that's in bad faith. Like, "Ryan, I disagree with you. I want to learn more about why I disagree with you, but I recognize you as a human being who's, who's smart and intelligent, and I want to understand what you believe and why you believe it." Another good example would be- I'm entering, I'm entering that, I'm entering that argument- Yeah ... or that discussion in good faith.

Another good example of this would be, like, where- Say Nikki Haley says, you know, that she's for the war in Ukraine, and you don't realize that her entire family, it m- you know, her entire family owns a military, uh, consulting company, and it is in her personal best interest financially to have the war in Ukraine because then she gets paid, and so do all her family members to go over and consult. So- So we would call that, we would call that conflicted, okay? Yep. I- So that, that's a conflict of interest. Yes.

So I would, I would call that, I don't know if that's necessarily in bad faith, but I would call that, that, that Nikki Ha- if that's, I don't, and I don't know, I don't, I'm, I'm assuming that's true if you're saying it. Yes. But she's a huge- But I would say that- ... shill for the military industrial complex ... that we call that, we call that, that's, well, that's a conflict of interest. Trump, Trump has lots of conflicts of, of interest. Um- You think?

I... What, what do you think those are? Oh, I mean, with the- And again, I'm, I'm not advocating th- for, I've gotten some shit recently because people think I advocate for Trump. I'm not advocating for Trump. I, I'll be honest with you, the most fascinating thing for me about Trump is the psychology of Trump Derangement Syndrome.

I'm just fascinated by it. Yeah. I don't think he's the best candidate for our country as a whole. I wish we had better options. I think he's better than Biden by far.

I mean, you're literally voting for people, you're literally voting for the dark- Are we gonna talk about this? Are we gonna talk about this? ... side of politics if you vote for Biden- Are we gonna talk about this? ... because he's, he's a fucking corpse. But, but my point is- ... I, I actually don't even love Trump. I, if I, if I thought he had a shot, and I will probably vote for him in New York because the freaking libs down in New York are gonna vote for Biden no matter what, I probably would vote for R- I love RFK.

I don't agree with everything RFK does, but you know what I think, love about RFK, and I'll move on to my ideas around Trump Derangement Syndrome- Okay ... is I kn- here's what I know. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. loves this country. He does. You don't have to agree with e- I think some of his thoughts on crypto, some of his thoughts on some other topics are a little off the wall.

I think he doesn't necessarily have, I think he, I think he, I think he has some odd views on some, some capitalistic things and taxes. However, in general, you know what I, you know what I know for a fact? The dude makes his own decisions and loves this country. Mm-hmm. And, and I don't think you have to agree with every point that someone has to vote for them.

I think, for me, at this point, considering our other options, a pure and undying love for this country, I, I, to me, even though he's a Democrat who's had to go independent because the Democrats are so fucking corrupt it's not even funny, that, I mean, anyone who wants to say Trump is corrupt is like literally a Democrat. So, so okay, can, can I pause you real quick? Can I pause you real quick? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I pause you?

Give you a little pushback. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, p- please. Like, like that comment right there- Yes ... would make it very difficult for you to engage a conversation with a Democrat, 'cause you think they're all- Yes ... 'cause, 'cause you think they're all corrupt. I don't think they're all corrupt.

I think the Democrat party is corrupt. I also think the Republican Party is corrupt. I'm about to say, you don't think the Republicans are corrupt? Oh, I do, 100%. Well, okay.

I think it's a uni party. I think it's crazy. Yeah. I, th- that's the thing that people don't understand. My, that, that when I get shit for, for, for my views, it's literally I think they're all terrible.

I think they're all awful, and I can't stand that these are the options we have, or that our government... Pe- I don't think people quite realize how terrible and uni party our government has become. Mm-hmm. I mean, they are all corrupted to a point where, you know, d- it's disgusting. It's literally disgusting where we've gotten to as a country.

And I don't love Republicans. I was a registered Democrat my entire life until Obama's second term when I feel like he completely flipped on what the reason I voted for him in, in his, in 2008, wh- which I did. I voted for Obama in the first term. I felt during that first term he did nothing except for the, the Affordable Care Act, which I think was a complete farce versus what he originally positioned it as. I no longer trusted him, and I hated that I had to vote Republican in the next election.

I then, uh, was a registered independent until about a year ago when I become so disgusted in the, uh, Republic- or, or, or, or I became a registered independent. Yeah, I'm still a registered independent. I'm s- I'm still today a registered independent. I never, I thought about registering as a Republican, but then I did more research on them, became so disgusted with them, that I'm like, "I can't stand any of these people." Yeah.

And I don't know what to do about it. I, here's one thing I, and I, I promise I'll shut up on this thing. No, no, it's fine. This is good. So I, I am of an opinion, though.

Mm-hmm. And I'm really interested in your take on this. So I am open about my political beliefs. I'm open about it. I don't care.

If people don't like it, that's fine. You don't have to like my views. You don't have to agree with my views. I can still like other people, and I have plenty of friends who have these liberal beliefs that I think are fucking bananas. What, what I do b-believe, though, is I think they, I believe that they believe they have those views for the right reason.

And I'm comp- that's what I've said. I'm completely cool. I can wholly and utterly disagree with your final decision if I believe that your initial reasoning for getting there was pure, right? Mm-hmm. So if I believe you're trying to help people, which, like I'll take, I'll give you a good example, my sister.

My sister is a hippie liberal, and I can't stand her viewpoint because I think it is, it's borderline Marxist. The problem is she's 33 years old. She has this pure, saintly heart, and all she wants to do is help people, right? Right. And she has been corrupted into believing that any of these scumbags, let alone the Democrats, are somehow the party of the nice people who are helping the little guys.

And I'm like, "Casey- Mm-hmm ... you don't understand. Like, your viewpoints are Marxist." Now, there are Democrats who have very, uh, pro-American views, and I'm, and I'm, I love those guys. I have no problem. It doesn't matter to me what party you're part of.

But like, it's, it's this, they, people get, like sh- I don't, it doesn't bother me that she has the views she has. I don't agree with them because I know where it's coming from this pure place of she, she wants to help the underdogs and help people. Mm-hmm. But, uh, and then let me get to my actual thought here. My thought is I feel like it is a complete and utter fucking cop-out, this I don't follow politics stuff, or I don't get into politics, or I'm not into politics.

I'm like, you know what? You're a chicken shit, because the reason our country is in the place that it is and the fucking dirtbags who are running our country on both sides and across the board are currently running our country, is because so many good people go, "Oh, I'm not into politics." I'm like, "Yeah, your not being into politics is the reason we have gotten to where we are." We need to have, be able to go back to the point where- Dude, I don't know exactly what your politics are. It could be completely different from mine, but you know what?

I know you're a good person who cares about other people, and we should be able to have a conversation in which we disagree on topics, and at the end of the day, we bro hug it out and it's all good. And you still believe what you believe, and I still believe what I believe, and it's all good because we're pointing the same direction. Or, or maybe, maybe, maybe you moved me a little bit. Maybe I- Or maybe, yeah, vice versa ... right? Right.

Maybe, maybe we've, maybe, 'cause we don't have all the answers, right? If we ever think that we have all the answers, then- 100% ... then what fun is conversation, right? So I'm gonna give you a good example of this. So- Well, let me, let me tell you what, let me make- Yes, yes, please, please ... one comment, and then you said you were gonna ask my opinion on something. Yes.

Yep So make sure you close this out with a question so I can, so I can respond to you, 'cause you said a lot. I'm not good, I'm not good at interviewing, dude. It's just the way it is. No, no, no. It's g- but, but you gotta ask me a question 'cause you said so much- Yeah ... and, like, I don't wanna just- Yeah ... you know, respond to things that are, that are irrelevant.

But here's why politics are important. Politics are important 'cause co- politicians write policy. Policy's important because policy impacts people. Here's what's interesting, and this is something I've learned over the past 15 years in just kinda shutting up and listening, and not necessarily sharing my opinion, but, like, hearing from other people. Um, and I know some people, some people are gonna hear me say this, and they're gonna say, "Oh, there goes Eric.

He's, you know, he sounds like he's this li- liberal Democrat," or that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yep. Um, but what government does impacts you and I a lot less than it impacts people who are more marginalized, right? The Affordable Care Act, right, okay, if it, you go past universal healthcare, okay, big deal, my insurance goes up a little bit. But my business partner, who has an uninsurable condition, all of a sudden got insurance.

Yep. Not only did he get insurance, last year he just had a double lung implant surgery, which would've been impossible if it wasn't for the Affordable Care Act. How many other people who are poor, who don't have access to healthcare were impacted posi- Is it perfect? No. I'm not, this, I'm not advocating for, you know, for, for that.

But think about that. Policy impacts people, right? Yep. Big thing right now is immigration. Well, you know, does, does, does it really impact my day-to-day?

I mean, contrary to what some people say, there's not a bunch of illegal people running around murdering people. There's more, there's more Americans out there killing people than there are, than there are people who are here illegally, right? That, that's rhetoric that we hear. But, like, policy directly impacts people who are immigrants, who, who, who are in this, like, who have, who were born here without documents. They're not citizens.

They've lived their entire life here. They're in their early 20s, and every day they're worried about, "Oh my God, a policy's gonna be written that's gonna send me back to a country that, like, sure, that's where my parents were from, but, like, I don't know that country. I, I've been in this country my..." Like, policy's important 'cause it impacts people. That's why it's really important to say, you know, you can say liberal, Democrat, conservative, Repub- whatever.

It's like, man, tell me what you believe, why you believe it. Yes. And when you hear the compelling reason... Okay, so my parents are Cuban. They came to this country.

If you know any Cubans who came here in their 60s or even in the 80s, they're all gonna be, like, hardcore, hardcore, for the most part, Republican. You know? They love Trump. They love the strong man, right? I disagree with a lot of that.

But, you know, when Obama became president, you talk to Cubans, they're like, "Oh my gosh, he's communist." "Well, why is he communist?" "He wants to do universal healthcare." "Well, why do you think that's communist?" "Because we had universal healthcare in Cuba and it sucks."

Okay, well that, that's kinda like, okay, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're jumping a little bit to, to big extremes here, you know? Well, you know, on the left they say, "Oh, well, Trump is, Trump is Hitler." Well, why is Trump Hitler, right? Because some of the things he says. Well, okay, maybe, maybe we're, we're taking some, a few steps here.

I don't know. But, like, let's stop and let's listen to, like, like, why do you think that? Rather than me just saying, "I think you're crazy. I think you're stupid. I don't wanna listen to you."

And this- Like, why do you think that? I'm curious. And this is the p- I, I, dude, I love this. And this is what I'm talking about, why we need to have these, why I think the I don't follow, I don't talk about politics thing is a complete chicken shit cop-out, because these are the nuanced conversations that we need to have, right? So when I say I lost faith in Obama, I voted for Obama 'cause I believed in the initial vision of the Affordable Care Act and what he talking about, and exactly what you just explained for your business partner and for other people.

I mean, most pe- I've shared this in part, but I grew up in an incredibly poor town of less than 900 people, right? My friends used to refer to my house as the crack house. Like, we had just enough to get by. Like, there was never, like, not food in my house. Yeah.

But we just, you know, we, we got by. We did not have stuff. And, like, I didn't take a vacation until I paid for it myself. The first vacation that I ever went on, I was in my 20s. Mm-hmm.

First vacation I ever went on. Yeah. Ever. As a human, was in my 20s. So, like, like, you know, I look at, and I looked at these things, and this is why I was a Democrat for so long, is because I re- I, what I knew of and was able to understand of Bill Clinton's, you know, what Bill Clinton did.

I know people can come in and say he did... In general, Bill Clinton was a pretty good, and, and I know he made mistakes, and I'm not advocating for all this kind of stuff, and take away the, like, Monica Lewinsky shit. But, like, Bill- I mean, let, let's be honest. Take that away, like, like, the, I mean- All of it ... if we're honest, if we're honest, the, the only president, or one of the few presidents in modern history that didn't have any scandal was, was, like, personal scandal, was probably Obama. I mean- Yeah, if you believe- ... he happened to be married to, I mean, you look at him, it's like, yeah- ... that his wife's a female, right?

Some of these wackos out online believe these wacky things. But I agree with you, right? In general, he seemed to be a family man with two kids. Yeah. Good dude.

And look, I actually don't hate- Role model, right? ... Obama. I, what I believe, so, so, so my issue was that I actually think Barack Obama in general is a, is a good human who, who wanted to do the right things. What I think happened is he got into office and got absolutely corrupted. What's up, guys?

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I love you for listening to this show, and I hope you enjoy listening as much as I do creating the show for you. All right, I'm out of here. Peace. Let's get back to the episode. By the, by this, whatever this- Machine, dude.

It's a monster. Yeah. It's a machine. I think that he got, I think he got absolutely fucking leveraged by, by whatever this dark area of our government is that, that, that we hear about, see about, but don't necessarily understand. Because- Mm ... that guy standing on stage in 2006 when he announced, when, when he first announced that he was, he com- comes out and he gave that talk, that unifying, it's not about white Am- you know, Black America, white America, it's about Amer- whatever it was, I'm butchering it a little bit.

But like, um, like that talk, if, if you, if you, you could not hear that talk and not have shivers if you believe in this country. You just couldn't, right? And that was, that was the vision of, that I grew up with. I mean- Yeah ... like these ideas today that somehow our country is this racist, like hellscape where everything is based on gender is, in my opinion, is completely manufactured. It's not the way I grew up, and I grew up in an area where if racism was a big deal, it would've been a big deal in America.

Now, that's not to say that racism doesn't exist. Don't get me wrong. I have plenty of Black friends who would tell you, of, of brown friends, all kinds of- I think, I think, I think here, and, and again, this is gonna be the thing where- But my point is- Go for it. Make your point ... my point is, and then I'll just finish this thought. Yeah.

I believe what, what, I lost faith in him 'cause I felt like he gave in to forces that were beyond his control. I do think he's, you know, was a, is a good guy and was trying his best and got absolutely snowballed. But my, my point in saying that is if I were to say that in my Republican circle of friends, they would absolutely castrate me, right? They would say all the things you just, "He's a fucking Marxist," and this and this and this. Yeah.

And he did all these things, and we can't have that discussion. And to me, it's like we need to have it. Like I voted for Trump twice. I will probably vote for him again if I don't vote for RFK. But it is only because the other, the op- when I weigh the options, it is not because I like him.

Do you think that, the, the, I don't think he's a great representation of our country. You fucking kidding me? But one, I think policy-wise, action-wise are actually much different than the things he says, and two, when weighed against the other options that we've been presented with so far, I have not seen the other option being better. But, but it's not because I like him, and that's the problem. People immediately go, "Oh, you must be some sort of, you know, racist, homophobe.

You hate women," and da. And I'm like, "No. That's not the case at all. I just weigh him against these other options and I don't-" I mean, I can't say, you just said, you just said we, we're gonna send the men into battle first because we need the women. Well, yeah.

We- Right? You need, you value, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I do, I do that, yeah. Yeah, we, men are disposable. So what did you want, what did you want my opinion on? My opinion, yeah. So my opinion is, and I, and I, and I think what, what I, I think we're getting to this, and this was really- Yeah ... my question was how do we start to wade through these things?

How do you have these conversations in private, semi-public, public forums in a way that is productive, that doesn't become shouting, that doesn't become... You know, I wrote something down, um, while you were talking the first time that, um, the best argument is rarely the meme, is, is what I wrote down. And I think this is part of the problem, is that we live in this society where everyone just throws memes at you. Yeah. "Oh, wait, Eric, you believe in the Affordable Care Act?

You must be a communist," right? Okay. And we throw this fucking meme at you. Here's how we have these conversations. You ready?

Yeah. And I don't have faith that many people will do this. Yeah. Right? Um, but here's the secret.

Um, when we engage in conversation with anyone, especially on topics that are volatile and, and, and, um, emotionally charged, number one, um, I think it helps to have a relationship with that person. Mm-hmm. Right? Um, the stuff that happens online, man, like I don't even, I don't... I have a rule.

I've got two rules when it comes to social media. Number one, never respond to anyone's political comments, even if I agree with them, and never post anything political. And if I post anything about faith or religion, it has to be, it, it, it's typically from a very personal narrative from my experience, not like this is truth and everyone else is wrong. Yes. It's something specific about my faith and how it has impacted me and, and, and changed me.

Because, um, the, the social media's not the platform to do it, 'cause we, we're avatars on social media. It's easy for us to say s- I can say something really harsh to you on social media that I would never tell you if I was staring you in the eye. 100%. So, so number one, okay, if you're gonna have really charged... How many people have you moved to your idea, to your camp by yelling at them?

My guess is very few. Yeah. So why even bother? Like, why even b- it, it, it's pointless. If I wanna have a meaningful conversation with someone who I disagree with, the first thing I'm gonna do is I'm gonna run to a point of commonality.

I am gonna get to know you, right? I wanna know where you and I see, see eye to eye. "Oh, man, you l- you, oh, you love your kids. I love my kids too." Mm-hmm.

"Oh, man, you're a good, you sound like a good father, man." Like, okay, we have a point of com- I have something of a point of refuge. That we can come back to really quickly if it, if it, if it starts, you know, going off the rails. But let's, let's say like, let's say I'm pro-Biden, you're pro-Trump, okay? Yep.

Like, um, like, like hard pro. Like, let's, let's say you're like... And, and for the record, this is not the case. Let's say you are not just pro-Trump, but you're like that, like really that 30% of like hardcore white nationalist- The, the- ... MAGA- ... the MAGA version of Trump.

The MAGA- Yeah. Like- Like- You are, you are the caricature of- Yeah ... Trump. And let's say, let's say I am like... Let's say I'm not Biden.

Let's say like I am like, uh, the caricature of the AOC Bernie camp. Okay. Like you and I. We don't see eye to eye. Even hearing those words makes my skin crawl, but yes.

Right, right. So I wanted, I wanted a very extreme- That's why this is a good, this is a good thought experiment. I like it ... um, and let's just say for sake of argument, I'm the reasonable one. When I say reasonable, not necessarily in beliefs, but just in terms of like, "Hey, I wanna get to know Ryan because I wanna convince Ryan to-" Yeah, I'm looking to attack ... come off. I'm, I'm here- I wanna get him off of his like- Yeah ... man, even if I don't pull him to my side, like he's, he's, he's getting into some dangerous stuff here.

Yep. Yep. So what I'm gonna, the first thing I'm gonna go do is, man, I wanna find a point of, of, of commonality between the two of us. What is it? Like, certainly we, we are humans.

We have lived the human experience. We've had pain. We've had joy. We've been part of families. We've been friends with other people.

We've been in bad breakups. We've had heart, uh, hardship. Like, I wanna find that commonality, and I wanna, I wanna form a relationship with you, and I wanna get to know you. And then once I get to know you, then I can ask questions like, "Hey, Ryan, I'm really curious about this. Why do you, why do you believe this?"

Right? 'Cause if I come to you like that, you're gonna probably come off of your... Pretty soon you're not gonna be as hard. You're, you're, you're gonna come off of your kind of, you're not gonna be as defensive. Yeah. You're not gonna be on the attack 'cause you realize like, "Hey, I'm not attacking you."

There's a really good story. I don't know if you've seen this. This is actually a really good example of this. There's this Black guy who's a musician. Um, this was back in like in the maybe like '80s or '90s.

Uh, I think it was in Massachusetts, okay? And he was playing at a bar where there was a bunch of KKK guys, and they, they, they would come and they would listen- Mm ... to his music. And he befriended, I don't know, I don't know what they call them in, in like, like the- A member ... like yeah, um, like the, not the Grand Master, but like the Grand Falcon, whatever, I don't know. Like, he befriended this guy, and over the years, this guy would, really liked his music. Uh, the, the Black guy became friends with this guy.

He actually went to a KKK meeting with- 'cause the guy loved this musician. Yep. Like, he, he be- he, this guy was really endearing to him. And, um, long story short, this guy, I can't think of his name, um- Yeah ... but if you Google Black guy who, who, you know- Yep ... KKK, you'll, you'll find there's a beautiful video on it.

This dude has collected over, like, 50 KKK robes from K- I think it, I think it's more than that. I think it's, like, 300. So you've seen this? Yeah. Yeah.

Like, well, what did he do, right? Number one, here's this guy who is clearly hated by the KKK, um, but yet found a point of commonality, music, built a relationship with this guy. The KKK guy stopped attacking, was no longer the defensive. The, the Black dude clearly incredibly, like- Patient ... gracious. Yeah.

Yeah. Right? Um, and in the end, he has changed the hearts of a lot of people. Yeah. Now, it probably came at a cost to him, like, and then that, that's grueling, you know, I would imagine that it's very difficult and patient work, but man, that's what I'm talking about.

Yes. Right? He, he was in his, he was in his full ru- no one would've thought he was crazy to, to walk away and not do that. We think he's crazy for what he did- Yeah ... but what a beautiful story. So, um, there's this quote that I will eventually have tattooed on my body at some point, and the, the, the end part of it is, "Grace upon grace."

The full is f- for, "From his fullness, we have all received grace upon grace." And I think about this quote a lot in my life, because I obviously have the ability to be bombastic, and I talk in hyperbole because I think it's fun and funny. Mm-hmm. But I also know, and, you know, I think for those who have had real conversations with me, not, you know, kind of some of my more chaotic podcast conversations, which I just find fun, um, I try very much to live in grace and be understanding. And I think that, you know, when we go back to this topic and, and, and we, we think through these conversations, when I say I, I do honestly believe that it is cowardly to shy away from political conversations, conversations about religion.

That being said, I, I do not mean the, the polar opposite. I do not mean we rush into these conversations and throw our views onto other people. The thing, I'll tell you, the number one thing that I struggle with, with Christianity the most are Christians who take their re- and, and, and I, this is obviously not what you do, um, but Christians who throw their belief on other people, right? Like, it's like, and, and, and, you know, you, you brought up abortion. I'm not gonna go into that topic per se, but that is a topic that oftentimes at its extremes is fueled by a religious belief, one way, you know, one way or the other.

And my point that I always bring up in that conversation is I don't have the answer. I, I'm not smart enough. I haven't done enough research, and, and I struggle with it on both sides. And I actually talk to my mom about it a lot 'cause she's, uh, a really hardcore Christian. Um, but my, my point in saying that is, like, w- we have to, we have to...

I, I shouldn't say we have to. My hope is that in all conversations, be they silly conversations about the insurance industry, religious conversations, political conversations, et cetera, is that we divorce ourselves from telling others how to live. ... that we live exactly the way we want to live, and that we be willing to share why we've d- we've decided to live that way, but we do not pontificate onto others why they should live the way we've chosen to live. I think that explaining to other people, you know, and dude, this goes for silly shit like, you know, I, I got, I got, I got lit up pretty good the other day talking about inbound marketing in the insurance industry. People get worked up about that, right? Like, like- Bro ... like, that- I should've used that as an example.

Bro. Inbound versus outbound. Bro. Right? I'm not even kidding.

This might be worse than if I had, like, brought up Trump or that like, God is real and everyone who doesn't believe him is an asshole. You know what I mean? Like, like, you know, you would think that me saying, and this is, so this is what I said, and I'll tell you, and this is, this is why it goes back to having grace for people, right? So I made, I put this little post of this little video and, and, and my take on this particular topic was that when someone raises their hand and calls our business- Mm-hmm ... we should, we should solve their problem- Yeah ... and round out accounts later. That was my take.

Bro, you would've thought that I was questioning- For the, for the record, for the record- ... the Holy Trinity ... for the record, Ryan- It was unbelievable ... for the record, I listened to that, um, episode and, um, I agree 100% with you. It's- I agree 100... Solve people's... So this, this kind of goes back to this, to this kind of what we're talking about, right? Like, in financial planning, when people, when people hire me as their financial planner, if I come to them and say, "Okay, Ryan, I'm your financial planner now.

We're gonna do estate planning, tax planning, all this stuff," they're like, "No, dude, like I, I just need you to help me figure out X, Y, and Z first." It's like triage. I call it financial triage. Like, what is- Yeah ... the problem? Let me solve...

Okay, so you're hungry, right? So you're talking about, let's, let's, let's, 'cause I wanna, I wanna three, three points I wanna make- Yes ... about, about, um, the verse that you referenced. Uh, grace upon grace, the, the quote that you referenced. Um, but, um, it's like if I wanna share a message with you, let's say I'm a Christian and, and I wanna share a message with you, and you're, you're like hungry, and I come to you and you're like, "Hey dude, do you have food for me?" I say, "No, but I got this really good message for you."

Like, I... The message is good. I think it's a good message, right? Um, but like you're hungry. Yeah.

Like, like, "Dude, like feed me." Like, "No, no, I got this good message for you." Like, let me feed you. Let me satisfy your need. Let me get to know your name, right?

Let me get, get to know what's important for you, then let me share my message with you. But like there's something real- there's something to be said about like solve the problem. Yeah, solve the problem first. Solve... And you can say, "Well, the problem is Ryan doesn't believe in Jesus and he needs to..."

I get it. I get it. But like, that, the problem, the... We, we've come to this, we forget that we're supposed to live in community with each other. We're supposed to- Yeah ... live in relationship.

Like, the world isn't these one-off interactions. Like, I get to know you, I live in community with you, you see me live, I see you live. Let's say, let's say I'm living, let's say, let's say I got my life right and you're struggling and, and sure, I'm there like, "Ryan, you really, you're making bad decisions, you're making bad decisions." One day you're gonna come to me and say, "Eric, I need your advice on something." Right?

Because we've been living in relationship, okay? We've been living in community with each other, and I think that's really important when we're having these conversations. That's, that's a... I will... I have no problem talking politics and religion.

Number one, when people say, "Don't talk politics and religion," I say, "Well, then how am I supposed to really know you?" Yeah. Right? Like, if there's anything that shapes us, we're all being shaped by something. We're either being shaped by our faith or be- we're being shaped by the secular world that just is doing its own thing.

We're being shaped, and I wanna know what shape- Ryan, before we go onto the next thought, can I give you, I wanna give you an example of this. Yes. I had someone reach out to me recently about, about taking a full-time position at their company, right? And, um, I told them I had reservations about that. It wasn't a hard no, but I had reservations, and I wrote them this letter, whatever, doesn't matter.

And I finished the letter by saying this. I, I gave them five reasons why they should not hire me, right? So I said, you know, "You don't... Here, I'm not say- this isn't me saying I don't want to work with you." Mm-hmm.

"But here are five things that you should consider before you bring me in." Right? And I listed these five things. The last thing was this: "I believe strongly in the orig- in the original values of the American experiment, constitution, and bill of rights. I have a, I skew towards a conservative mindset, and every decision I make is passed through a filter of Judeo-Christian values.

If those things offend you, then we, we need to have a conversation about that." And my point was not to get political, it was not to get religious, but I wanted to be very clear that these are the filters that I use, right? I- Mm-hmm. These are the filters that I use to make my decisions. For better or for worse, the heuristics that allow me to operate my life, these are what they are.

Have you ever had a podcast before where, where heuristics was used twice? No, but I love that word. Perfect. Um, you know, and, and it, I think, you know, to your point, and then I, I get back to what you're saying, I just- Yeah ... because you were saying it and I was like, "Oh, my God, I literally just did this." It was like- Yeah ...

I put that in there, and I've never done that before, but I just, I've gotten to a point in my life where it was like I just wanted to be upfront. Like, "This is what you're getting if you bring me in. If you really want me, if this is what you really want, like this is who you're getting. Like, don't come in, don't have me come in and then be like, 'We can't believe you're this thing.'" I'm like, "This is what I am."

Like, I'm so better- So even if, even, even in your statement, even in your statement, "These are my filters," if you tell me that, I'm, I'm not gonna push back, but my, my follow-up question would be, "Okay, what do you mean by conservative?" 'Cause I don't even know what that means anymore. Yep. And second, tell me more about the values- Yeah ... the Judeo-Christian values that you use as a filter. Because, because human history is littered with people who have picked and, you know, I'm, I'm not saying this is you- Yeah, yeah ... but we pick and choose which values- Oh, yeah ... we want to implement. And, and again- Right ... the reason I use the word filter- Yeah ... and not as rules, right?

Because one, I'm highly imperfect person, and even if I would love to live ... in perfect harmony with some of these ideas. I don't always, 'cause I'm- Yeah ... not perfect. I, and, and- Well, that's the journey we're on, right? We're sojourners, right? Exactly.

And the reason, another reason I use filters, and I use filters a lot, and, and, and, and I think in terms of filters, is 'cause filters can be changed, right? I can change out a filter fairly easily from my life. If, if something's not working for me, let's say, let's say a staunch pure capitalistic filter that's normally associated with conservative viewpoints, uh, has been my li- I don't believe in that. I actually think that we need to have baseline social services and, uh, and, and financial safety nets, right? Which would be off of a standard conservative Republican viewpoint, which is why I'm not a Republican.

Is, is while I think unfortunately some of those programs get corrupted, I very much believe that they're important, and social safety nets are important to the longevity and sustainability of our society. So, like, I- they're filters. Okay. Okay They're not hard and fast rules. They're filters.

I wanna make my three points, 'cause they're really good three points, before I make those three- Yeah, yeah. Hit me with your three points. Hit me with your three points. Come for it No, no, no. Before I make those three points, I wanna, I wanna say one thing, okay?

Yes. So, this is a, a, um... When, when you think of capitalism, who are some of the fathers of capitalism that you think about? Uh, well, Hamilton is obviously the original, but I don't know more than, you know, some baseline reading about his viewpoints. You know, I think of, you know, the, the really hardcore guys are the, the, um, the robber barons, the railroad guys, um- Before that.

Before that You think even before that? Adam Smith, right? Adam Smith. Yeah. Wealth of Nations.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. If you go all the way back. Yep, yep.

Adam Smith is an interesting story if you follow his life. He, he grew up, um, on this coast watching the market. So he watched, he watched the marketplace. So it's really interesting to hear his thoughts. Adam Smith has another book we never hear about called The Theory of Moral Sentiments.

Now, I've looked at it and it is, um, it is a, uh, uh, a book that I probably would never read 'cause it is very, very difficult. The language is very, very difficult. But if you go listen to some summaries on it, it's exactly what you said. We, we hold Adam Smith as like the father of capitalism, right? Um, but he held some, some beliefs that, that people would say, "Whoa, that is not capitalistic.

That is not a- Yeah ... a capitalist." So anyway, all right. You, you talk about- Uh, same with Mac- uh, just one more, uh, gambit of that- Yeah ... is Machiavelli. V- almo- I... Everyone- I wrote my three points down so I won't forget them.

Yes. So everyone, I h- you know, you hear people reference Machiavelli all the time. Um, if you actually read The Prince, one, and then read some of his other writings and things that he's done, his quotes, ideas, and concepts are so commonly misconstrued. Mm-hmm. It is...

And often, and never put in context into what he was actually talking about, right? It's this like kill or be killed mentality, which is, which he, he was framing only in scenarios in which those types of actions were necessary to be successful. All he was doing was saying, "In the real world, sometimes you have to go to war. And if you're gonna go to war, here's some ways to actually win wars," et cetera. And people reference him as like this whatever.

Yeah. So I, I think it's very interesting, and again, this goes back to the best argument is often not the meme- Yeah ... is that we, we create these mememics for ideas or for individuals or for what they stand for, and they are very rarely the full context version of what someone actually believed or what they were trying to say. Boom. Context. If you're reading anything...

So one of my goals this year is to read more dead people. Ooh, I love that. So like... Yeah, so like, like people who are no longer here, but their ideas have- What, what would be one or two that are on your list? Um, you know, I'm always trying to read a little bit more of Jesus.

That's always- Okay ... important to me. Yep. Um, let's see, who else? Um, uh, oh my gosh. Um, I recently read a, a biography on Justin the Martyr.

I don't know that name. He was like a, he was like an early, like 200, 300, um, um, uh, philosopher. So he's- you would actually really like him, 'cause he, he kinda, he dabbled in stoicism. He dabbled in, um, um, Pythagorean, the guy, Pythagorean, like there was like these math cults, and he, he dabbled in all these and ended up, ended up on, on, on Christianity, but he's fascinating. Yeah.

Um- Well, Jesus was a stoic. No, not totally. Not totally. I mean, no, it... I mean, you, dude, if you read it, I, this is- He grew, he grew up in Rome.

He grew up in- My conjecture, my conjecture, uh, at the same, uh, is that, dude, he, he obviously he is the son of God. Well, first, first of all, the stoics, the stoics don't, don't... Typical stoic philosophy- 100% ... uh, don't... Yeah I'm not saying he was a stoic. I'm saying...

I, I shouldn't say that. I shouldn't said he is. But, but that's like saying Jesus was Buddhist because some of his, his- He was- ... his- Yeah, but- He's like- ... stoicism was- ... trying that ... the stoicism was one of the prevailing philosophical concepts at the time in which he lived. So- Yeah, I mean, s- 'cause stoicism- ... he had to be exposed to that ... 'cause stoicism had a really, really high moral standard. Yes.

So that's why. Like, like, like stoics were like, were super moral. Um, they tended to be, in some cases, very, um, um... They, they tended to be aesthetics where they, uh, where they would like, you know, not participate in, and they didn't over drink. I mean, they were very moralistic- Yeah ... and ethical.

So yeah, there, there's tons of, of overlap and, and- Yeah ... commonality. Um, I didn't mean to blaspheme there. I know I was blaspheming. No, that's not blaspheming. That's not...

In fact, there's a, there's a, a, a part in Acts where, you know, where Paul's in Acts in chapter 17 where it says that he was in the synagogues reasoning with the, with the, the, the teachers, so the, the, the, you know, the, the, um, the rabbis and, and whatnot. And then he was, in the next verse, he's talking to the, the poets and the stoics, and the next verse he's like in the marketplace talking to the common people, and this is really int- So point of commonality. So here's Paul, who's spreading this message. He's in, he's in this very cosmopolitan town. He's in the marketplace, and it says there's statues to all these gods in the marketplace, and there's one statue to the unknown god.

This is what Paul says. He says, "Wow, y'all have all these gods. That's amazing." Right? Like, "Congratulations.

You're, you're clearly a very faithful people, and you even have a god to an unknown... a statue to an unknown god. Let me tell you about this unknown God. His name- Mm-hmm ... is Jesus." So, like, he comes in, found this point of commonality, and then shared his message. Really cool.

All right. All right. Three points. Hit me with your three points. Hit me with your three points.

Three points. We're way over time. So, so context, so everything has to be read in context. Okay, let me back up. All right.

So you said something about Christians, and they just kind of share this message and, and they just kind of throw it kind of, like, hardcore, right? Well, not, I didn't mean all. I mean, there, that type of- No, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That kind of- No, I'm not getting defensive here.

I, I- Yeah, yeah ... I, I, I agree with- Just to be clear for the audience. Yeah. I know you're not. And you talked about your tattoo that you wanted to get, grace upon grace.

Yes. Yep. All right. So, um, we're told that Jesus was full of grace and truth. Grace and truth.

I think what happens is, and you can take this outside of Christianity, sometimes we're just full of truth, right? Like, I'm just gonna come with you at h- like, I'm gonna point out everything that I see in your life that is, like, untrue or wrong, and we're like no grace. And then sometimes we come in just full of grace. Like, "Oh, Ryan, I love you. Yeah, you made a bad decision, but it's okay.

It's okay." At some point, I need to, I need to introduce truth. So it's grace and truth. It's both. It's not just one or the other.

All right? So I was thinking about that when you said grace upon grace. The second point I wanted to make about truth was, um, you've heard of the, the fruits of the spirit, right? Mm-hmm. Our kids learn how to sing it, and Paul, Paul talks about it.

Um, do you know what... I think there's like seven, seven fruits of the spirit. Do you know what's not a fruit of the spirit? So, like, so, like, for those who are listening who, who might not know what that means, like, there's this as, as Christians, we believe that when we, when we, when we put our faith in Jesus, you know, we, we, we are, we are given the Holy Spirit as our helper, right? To, to help us work through this life, and it, he lives in us and, and just helps us become who we should become, okay?

Doesn't mean we're, like, perfect people, but that's the beautiful thing about Christianity is that God has come to us and we have access to him now. It's not like something we're trying to attain. He lives with us through, through the Spirit. The fruits of the spirit. What is not on the list, ironically enough, is truth.

Truth is not on the list. Love, joy, peace, faithfulness, kindness, goodness, um, gentleness, self-control, I think, right? Is that because it's subjective? I don't know. Well, do you think truth is subjective?

I think it is. Do you think Paul was saying that truth is subjective? That the truth of Jesus is subjective? I think that- I don't know how two things can be, can be both true that are mutually exclusive of each other. Then what is my lived truth?

Is that a made-up term? No, I think that's a, I th- and when you say m- I don't think it's a made-up term. I'm, I, that's a, that's an honest question. That, that's a- No, like, I, I, I think, I think that is, I think that is a statement that's indicative of our times, where we want, we want to become, like, our own y- you know, we want to become our own, um we wanna be in control of our own life. I wanna b- I am, I, I am becoming my own little god, and what's true for me is true for me, but it doesn't have to be true for you, right?

So I'm gonna live out my truth. What do I believe? And I think, I think that's, I think that, I actually think that's more of a modern idea where, um, we, we live in this, we live in this world where we, um, uh, we're very individualistic, particularly in the West, right? We, we have a lot of s- we're very suspicious of institution. Mm-hmm.

Right? Pr- I mean, you gotta think for, for most of modern history we, we were part of institution, right, wrong, or indifferent, but now we live in a world where we can do what we want, how we want, when we want, so we're gonna live out our truth. So like- Which hasn't, which I believe isn't actually true because- So like- I think, uh, just to... Sorry. No, no.

I can't help but have a thought on this. No, no. I honestly believe the reason that, a, a, a, a large contributing factor to the rise in depression is our, our, is the fact that we have moved away from institutions. And again, I, we would have to categorize and contextualize institutions 'cause I think they get convoluted from the original meaning and the meaning that we use today. Um, 'cause people will say like, you know, "The FBI is an institution."

And that's not what we're talking about, I think, in the context of what we're speaking about here. But, um, and I think that this lack of sense of community as we've grown so distrustful of institutions is, is a large contributor to the depression that we feel today, and then we justify our depression through this idea of lived truth or made-up terms and ideology, and then we start to create false gods around things like, you know, on the right it might be MAGA-ism, and on the left it might be woke-ism as it's people facing the same problems trying to, trying to, you know, find this meaning in their life that doesn't, that, that used to come from- So what are you pushing back on? I didn't hear you push back on anything I said. Uh, no, I wasn't pushing back on, I was sharing- Okay. Okay ...

I had to share that thought- Yeah ... in my head 'cause I, 'cause I, I agree, I agree with you wholeheartedly, I guess is what I'm saying. Well, here, here, here's what I, here's what I would say. Yeah. Here's what I would say. We're, we're getting, we're getting into philosophy now, and we can, we can go on for 17 more hours and that's okay.

Yeah, sorry. My, my, no, my, my, my, like, calendar is clear 'cause I knew I was gonna be talking to you. Um, um, so I have a problem when someone says what's true. Like, like, certainly there's, there's things that are not mutually ex- that we, we, there's things that we have to hold in tension, right? Yeah.

In this world. And perspective, I think. Right? And, and it's really hard, like, okay, Ryan says this, I disagree with him. Is he wrong?

Am I right? I don't know. Both things we could both possibly be right or we just have to hold it in tension. But if I say that Jesus is the Son of God, and you say, "No, he was a, he was just, um, you know, just a pr- a prophet," like, those two things are mutually exclusive of each other. I'm wrong or you're right.

So if you say, "Well, I'm gonna live out my truth believing that Jesus was just a prophet," and I say, "Well, I'm gonna live out my truth believing that, that Jesus was, was the Son of God," those things are mutually exclusive of each other. W- uh, we obviously, we live in a secular country, and we live in relationship with people who, who hold these two things, um, and we, we can live in harmony with each other. But, I, I mean, I would say, "Well, you're wrong and I'm right," or, "I'm right and you're wrong." I mean, that, that's, that's, that's just the way it is. Yeah.

Um, so that's why I talk about, like, live out my truth. Like, I don't wanna know what you mean by that. Yeah. Tell me what the- what do you mean by that, right? I, I don't mean anything by it.

What are you going with? I think it's ridiculous. And I get it. No, I get it. I do.

And, and there's something, sometimes there's something really beautiful about that. But, like, my truth for me is I like to travel a lot. Okay, I'm gonna live out my truth, you know? My truth for me is I think it's okay to steal if I really need something. Ooh, wait a minute.

Whoa, whoa, time out. No, you can't do that, right? So, like, um... Or is it? Is it okay to steal?

What if they're really hungry? Right? So, like, ooh, now, now we start getting some really interesting ethical, uh, debates here, which- Yeah ... so, so my truth, your truth, I think it's important to have these, these conversations. Again, we're all being shaped by something. If you say, "I'm gonna live out my truth," what, what are you being shaped by?

Like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna be shaped my, by my own emotions, Ryan. Emotions are terrible, are terrible masters. Mm-hmm. Terrible. And oftentimes, oftentimes when we say, "I wanna live out my truth," it's, it's...

Now, if you say that, look, if, if someone here listening is says that, I'm not, I'm not saying you're a bad person. What I'm saying is stop and think, what does that mean to live out my truth? Have you read The Untethered Soul? Is it I wanna do what I wanna do how I wanna do it? Like, I'm liv- I'm being, I'm being, I, I am mastered by my emotions.

Have you read The Untethered Soul? Is that, um- Michael Singer? No. I don't know. No, not Michael Singer.

Michael, uh... Hold on. No, that's not right. Um, Untethered Soul. Come on, computer.

Untethered... So as you look that up- Yeah, Michael Singer. Yeah. Yeah. Untethered Soul.

Yeah. Uh, so he, he... I think he does a very good job of removing, um, of removing... Th- this, the argument that he makes, he does weave in, uh, some J- Christian stuff. He does weave in some, some Buddhist stuff, but, but it's not the point of the book, and never does he l- lay on either one.

The point of the book, at a very high level, and I think this is an incredibly important... To, to me, this would be, like, required reading if you're impro- if you're interested in improving your philosophy and psychology. Mm-hmm. And the reason is because what he lays out is an argument for the detachment of the soul from your mind and your body, and I think that this is one of the most crucial aspects of living a healthy, happy, a consistently healthy, healthy and happy life as much as is possible in, in day to day. We're all gonna have ups and downs.

And, and the reason I believe that is because for, for exactly what you just said. Your mind, your emotions, your feelings are your, are your mind's way of sending data points to your soul. Doesn't mean that those data points are right. It just means- And we should listen, we should listen to them. Yeah, we d- yeah, we should listen to them.

They're data points. It's like the dashboard of your car, man. When that check engine light goes off- Yes ... I better listen to it. Yes.

So, so this is, this is, I think, the thing where, where we get... So our body is the same way. You have some pain. Is that pain like you're dying? Yeah.

Or is that pain like you used your ar- you, you did a ton of curls and your biceps are bulging? Is it... Like, what is that? Yeah. And, you know, is your...

So, so what, what, what he lays out is this idea that emotions, feelings, et cetera, uh, that, that the voice, that, that voice that you hear is not you. When, when we hear a voice in our head that is not us, that is our mind speaking to us and giving us data points and, and same thing with our body, right? And to be able to extract ourselves from that allows us to see them for what they actually are, which are important and valid data points. But like any experiment or whatever, you take the data points in, and when you're detached from them, right? Like people always say detach from the outcome in sales.

It's the same kind of thing, right? Detach yourself from these, see them for what they are, and you can actually operate in, in the real world, where instead- Mm-hmm ... you get, you know, your mind, you know, uh, uh, you see a negative, you see somebody post something that's the opposite political party from you, and your mind is flooded with all these senses of urgency and hate and anger and frustrate. All of a sudden, you're, like, angry and frustrate 'cause someone posted a meme on freaking Instagram from the opposite political party, and you're like- In, in here, in here, assuming... Let's, let's, let's just kind of play along here. Let's say you are a, y- you are a, um, you would say that you are a Christian.

Yep. And you're getting that angry, and as, as Christians, right, we're, we're called to put on the mind of Christ to become like Christ. That's, that's the journey that we're on, is- Yep ... how do I become more like Jesus? How was Jesus? Jesus was kind, but he was also strong.

I mean, Jesus was revolutionary. Like, if you read it in context, Jesus said some things that were, like, really jarring to the culture at large, right? Um, um, so here Jesus is about to be crucified on the cross, right? We're in Lent. We're, we're, we're about to have Easter.

By the time maybe this publishes, we'll be in Easter. And one of the things that... And I think about this anytime I'm in conversation with someone who wants to hurt me or I disagree with, right? Jesus' words as he is, is being spit on and beaten on his way to be crucified, he says, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." Jeez, um, peach.

Could you imagine that? Here Jesus is saying, "Man, forget... God, forgive these guys. Father, forgive these guys. Like, they don't know what they're doing.

They're beating me. Like, they are just acting out of pure ignorance. Forgive them." Wow. So here is some, some dude posts some meme online that pisses me off, and I'm gonna get all angry.

Man- Yep ... God, man, bless his heart. God forgive that guy. Ryan doesn't know what he's talking about. Yeah.

Poor Ryan, right? Like- Or just, or just let it go byLike, we're, we're, we're all being shaped by something. Yep. Right? What are we being shaped by, right?

So again, to go back to the second point, truth, I'm not saying truth isn't important, right? We know truth is important. All I'm saying is the fruit of the spirit are words that, uh, the right might label liberals. Like, "Oh, look at that liberal. He's so kind, and gentle, and self-controlled, patient," right?

Like, like, the, the, these, these are, this is how our lives, our lives should bear this fruit. I should be patient. I should exhibit self-control. I should exhibit kindness and, and goodness. What does kindness look like?

You know? Kindness is, is elevating you, taking care of you, uh, not hurting you, right? But that doesn't happen in our, in our wo- in, in our culture. So, kinda go back to your original- Yeah ... question of like how do we have these conversations? Well, man, man, if I'm gentle with people, if I'm kind with people, if I'm self-controlled, right?

I'm feeling angry right now. My emotions are on, on, on, my emotions are high right now. Let me exhibit self-control. Let me take a deep breath. You know, let me spend a couple minutes contemplating my day or meditating over my day.

What were those times of high emotion and low emotion? What happened? Okay. Oh, this happened. It really pissed me off.

How can I change that? Oh, did I hurt someone that I didn't mean to because of, of my emotions? Let me go back and seek out Ryan's forgiveness. Even if I disagree with him, man, you wanna talk about being able to have conversation with someone you disagree with? Go to them humbly and say, "You know, Ryan, we were talking, and I know we don't disagree.

We'll probably never agree, but the way I talked to you was demeaning and demoralizing, and I just totally robbed you of all your dignity, and I'm sorry. Do you forgive me?" Yeah. Whoa. Like, you wanna talk about having now the opportunity to share what you believe with someone, hopefully?

You know. Wow. That's, that's, that's big. So I wanna wrap up because, um, for a couple different reasons, but, um, I, I wanna leave you with this and just have you react. I went and saw Jordan Peterson's newest tour, uh, We Who Wrestle With God.

It's fucking phenomenal. Absolutely highly recommend it. Um, you know, what brought me back to... I, I've always been a Christian, but I probably stepped away from the faith in a practicing stance for m- a lot of my 20s just, you know, our own journeys and things happen and, and Jordan Peterson's very much the individual who brought me back. He has a series on Genesis.

Um, it's 18 episodes, two hours long a piece, where he breaks down Genesis in his podcast. It's from, like, 2017, 2018. It's absolutely phenomenal, and, uh, it brought me back to, it brought me back to God, essentially, you know, in, in a practicing way. Yeah. Yeah.

Not that I feel like I ever lost it, you know, but it brought me back- Yeah ... to a pra- practicing. Okay. Yeah. So I went and saw Jordan Peterson live, uh, his new tour, Re- We Who Wrestle for God. Uh, took, took, took my girlfriend.

We sat front row, got to meet him, shake his hand. Oh, wow. It was amazing. Yeah, I saw, I think I saw you post pictures, so. Yeah, it was amazing.

But my, my, what I wanted to say to you is, and, and it, to, not to the God part. To, to, I believe that Jordan Peterson is one of the best at working through, I'm gonna say an argument, but I don't mean it in the com- in the conflicting way. I mean it in- Mm-hmm ... in developing a thought process in our brain. Yeah. And he uses, uh, a two-step process that, that he has never described, but it's how I've broken down his process. 'Cause what I love about Jordan Peterson the most is not actually his conclusions, it's how he gets there, and he basically uses...

Th- there are other aspects, there are other pieces in here, but I don't wanna get too convoluted. He uses the Socratic method followed by a steel man technique. Mm. Mm-hmm. So what he does is he will create an argument, God exists, right?

Okay. And then he'll work through the Socratic method. Yeah. If, if this, then what? If this, then what?

If this, then what? If this, then what? To the point where he gets to a conclusion on that argument. Then, before he pins that argument on the wall as what he believes to be truth, he will then steel man the other side of the argument all the way down through the Socratic method. Okay.

If this, then that. If this, then that. If... And then he puts those two things next to each other, and by the time you get there, if you can't steel man- Mm-hmm ... the other side of the argument, then you don't truly believe in what you believe, is, is his thought process. Could you- And we have to think about that for a second.

Could you define... I, I know what you mean by steel. This is kinda what we were talking about- Yeah ... the entire conversation, right? The most best argument's typically not the mean. Can you define steel man?

Yes. So let's say, um, let's say that, uh, uh, uh, you, you, you brought up the fact that you think the Affordable Care Act is a good thing. If I was going to straw man your argument, I'd be like, "That's 'cause you're a fucking Marxist," right? Yeah. That's straw manning your argument.

Yeah. That's taking the lowest commonator version, a huge logic leap, and applying something wholly negative and universal to the top of it that isn't actually what you believe. Steel manning your argument would be, "Eric is a kind Christian who believes in people and understands that not everyone comes from the same economic, uh, or emotional, uh, situation, or societal situation that I do, and that there are certain circumstances in which having a backstop around healthcare are incredibly important, and that while he may believe that it's not the perfect solution, it is the best solution that we currently have to make sure as a society we're taking care of our people." Right? That would be steel manning Eric's argument.

Like, what's the best possible argument for that? Yes. Okay. So, so, so straw manning is you're a Marxist bastard- Yeah ... and steel manning is you're a kind, caring person who, while you may believe there are flaws in this system, believe it's the best option that we have. Yeah.

Correct. And, and if you can't steel man, everyone can straw man an argument. Yeah. But if you can't steel man your opponent's argument, you don't actually understand it- Understood ... and you cannot stand, you, your argument is less valuable. So what I have started to trying to do in all things, you know, and this even goes back to the trivial inbound versus outbound in the insurance industry conversation- ... is, and it's wh- and it's why I brought Charles Speck on the podcast and did that argument with him, was because I wanted to be able to say I wanted to be able to steel man the other side of inbound for people so that they understood why I believed- Yeah ... in inbound so much, and, and show the others, the other case.

And I think that if we do this in your words, which I think are perfect good faith, uh, we can have our- we can have con- we can have deep, rich, meaningful conversations about h- highly, uh, about high energy topics such as politics and religion and, and other things. Um, but we have to w- we have to be able to understand where our, where our- the other person is coming from. Yeah. So- If one- Yeah. So you started talking about Jordan Peterson, you talked about his, his, his...

I'm, I'm keeping you on, I'm keeping you on tabs here, man. Yeah. Uh, you talked about his Socratic method for working through an argument. Um, you wanted me to res- react to something. Yes.

What do you want me to react to? Um- 'Cause I wanna react, I just don't know what you want me to react to. That's... I, I hate that you hold me to that, 'cause I'm so bad at finishing my questions. No, no, no, like, what, that- Um, no, I think, I guess my thought process is, um, I guess my, my, my question is, um, I don't know that I have a question there.

I- Well, what about Jordan- Maybe you want me to react ... what do I think about Jordan Peterson? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you, where do you- Is that, is that the question? I guess. Yeah, I just, I, y- sometimes when- Yeah ... you s- you said something that just hit me so strongly- Yeah ... in terms of my agreement with what you said, and I couldn't help- Yeah ... but share his process, because I feel like he's one of those guys that gets straw manned a lot.

And when you really dig into his work, I think he's one of the most important thinkers of our time. I think he is like- I think a guy like Jordan Peterson, and I don't, I don't know, I'll be in full disclosure, I don't know a ton about Jordan Peterson, okay? Yeah. But when you deal with guys who are philosophers, and he's, what, he's a psychologist, um- Yeah, yeah ... so like, like- Clinical psychologist by trade ... he's a clinical psychologist by trade, and we, and he's a philosopher. He's, he's, he's a modern day philosopher.

Yep. And I think it's really, really important to, you have to, with philosophers, you really have to read like a body of their work to understand- Yep ... them. And you can't read a philosopher at a point in time in their life because they're not always moving, but they're always moving. Yes. Right?

Their arguments are changing, uh, they're becoming more sophisticated in how they understand things, the way they, the way they present things are different. Um, so I haven't listened to, to Jordan Peterson enough to, to form a, a complete, um, uh, opinion about what I think about Jordan Peterson. But I will say this: Um, I do like how you broke it up. I do think that's a good way, you know, as a f- if you're thinking through philosophical stuff, I think you have to think about it that way. Um, I like how Jordan Peterson sometimes will think out loud.

Mm-hmm. That's what's hard with philosophers, is like they think out loud and you're trying to follow them, and sometimes you like, you can't always follow them. Like I listened to one of his, um, one... I downloaded, uh, one of his, his podcasts recently to listen to it on an airplane, just 'cause I wanna, I wanna like, I know his, his name's becoming more and more popular, particularly in our circles, and I wanna be, I wanna be educated on, on, on him. And, um, this particular podcast was probably the wrong one for me to listen to because he kind of meandered.

I'm like, "Dude, like just get to your point on this. Like what are you trying to say?" Yeah. But, um, I think wrestling with stuff is important. So I love the fact that you said Jordan Peterson brought you back to your faith or he helped strengthen your faith because I think whenever we're wrestling with a truth, it's really important.

Um, what I would say, and I've heard some people kinda, I think with humans we gotta be really, really careful how we elevate certain people because as Christians- Yep ... the, the, the goal is not to become like Jordan Peterson, it's to become like Jesus. Um- Yes ... there's some, there's some, there's some people who are very influential in my life and I look back and some of those people have like done terrible things. Um, some people I've never known personally, they were kind of mentors through books, and come to find out they're just freaking creepy ass people who did some terrible things to people and, um, and you're like, "Oh my gosh," right? Um, so when we put our faith in humans, we can, we can be let down. Yeah.

So, but people- I agree ... people, like my relationship with you, you know, be- because of this, and this might not be my relationship with everyone because everyone's not, not a professing Christian, but my relationship with you, our relationship together should be one that helps us become more like Jesus. Yeah. More loving, more kind. We should become more hopeful for other people. We should become encouraging, right?

The hard parts, the bombastic parts of us probably need to be shaved a little bit. They probably need to f- be filed down a little bit because why would I want, why would I want some- something in me that's, that's not, um, that's edgy to prevent me from being in a position to like point you towards something that's good for you? I think you're very right. And I mean- And, and I'm, I'm not, I'm not call- I'm calling you out on your podcast. No, no, no.

I'm not, I'm not. I'm not calling you out like- I think you're right. I think you're right. I think and- Like just think about your life. You're 43 now.

Today's your birthday. You're 43. As you look back, there's things like, man, when I was 20 I did some stupid stuff. I said some stupid stuff. When you're 60, when I'm 60, and I, I'm not speaking as like, "Oh, I've got it all figured out."

When I was 42 I said some stupid stuff, just so we're all clear. Right? Like that's the thing. We're on a journey. Yeah.

That's why grace. Grace. Yep. That's what the beautiful thing about the Christian faith is, is God is graceful. Yep.

And in our... You know, one of the things I love most, speaking about reading dead people, I read a bunch of Mother Teresa once, right? Mother Teresa, doesn't matter if you're a Christian or not, like, you know, you know her name as just like this am- amazing servant of marginalized people, right? In Calcutta, just like the poorest of the poor. Yep.

Right? You, you would, you read some of her writings and it would blow you away. Like talking about like, you know, the closer I get to God, the more I realize I'm a sinner, right? Who in their right mind would call, who would look at Mother Teresa and say, "God, she's a sinner"? She would, right?

Crazy, right? The more I, the more I learn about God, the more I realize I don't know him. This is Mother Teresa. Yeah. Right?

So like we're on this, this journey that will, that should never end. That should never end. Yeah. Paul even talks about I'm running the race. I, I'm running this race and I hope to finish.

I completely agree. Dude- And- I, uh- I gotta wrap up. I think that I could, I could go for, like you said, I could go for another three hours. I love this stuff. I, I think that every time, and I'm gonna say this and I mean this with all sincerity, every time you and I have a conversation, I feel like I come away with it having questioned in, in the most positive way, in, in the absolute most positive way, questioned things that I do that I want to continue to improve that I haven't put enough effort into.

And, and, and please take that as the ultimate compliment that I could give you. So this didn't have anything to do with anything that we originally set out to do. What were we supposed to talk about? Have we started recording yet? I, I have no idea.

I have no idea. But dude, I just appreciate the hell outta you. Um, I, I think that, uh, I think our conversations are wonderful. I, I, and I enjoy every single one of 'em, so thank you so much. Awesome, man.

Appreciate you. I'm going to Shaboom. Close twice as many deals by this time next week. Sound impossible? It's not.

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