The $2.5M CEO Problem: Why Leaders Who Make Millions Create Employees Who Quit | Mita Mallick

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Snack Wrap is back. Ba da ba ba ba. Why do people micromanage is you're under pr- pressure from your boss, you think you can g- do it faster. The number-one job of leaders is to grow more leaders. If you're doing someone's job for them, they're not learning.

Mita, it's great to have you on the show today. Thanks so much for taking the time. Thanks for having me on. I'm excited for our conversation. Yeah, and congratulations, uh, USA Today bestseller.

That's tremendous. Yes. Amazing. I was celebrating with Mom. We've been celebrating all week, so Yeah.

Wonderful. Good news, yes. Wonderful, wonderful. Well, we are here to talk about, uh, your book in particular because I think the topic is so incredibly timely. It's something that a lot of people deal with, and, you know, essentially, there's a premise in there that I, I think is very intriguing to me, which is bad bosses are made.

So I'm very interested in the idea of, of how, how are they made? Because I think a lot of people might just think, "This guy's a dick. He's always been one." You know what I mean? Right.

Like- That's the way it is ... he is. He was born that way, you know, whatever. But I don't think, and, and this is what really intrigued me about, about y- uh, your work, was I don't think people think that they can be actually created, right? Mm. Like, someone could be maybe a- Yes ... normal person and somehow become a bad boss because they're, they're made into that.

So maybe we can start there. Sure. I believe we're all a, a product of our circumstances and experiences and backgrounds, and when I think about bad bosses not being born and being made, I think about three moments when bad boss behavior shows up. The first moment I think about is there's some stress on the environment and stress in the business. I'm sitting in the US right now.

Lots of conversations around tariffs, government shutdown, all of these things that add stress, and the worst behaviors can come out in us. Second, in my house, I have children, so we like to say poo-poo trickles down. Ryan, you work for me. First-time leader. I'm a bad boss.

You don't know any better, so you start emulating my behaviors because that's, that's the only model of leadership you have access to in that moment. And then the third moment I see bad boss behaviors really come out is when you have a personal earthquake happen. You lose someone you love, you have a miscarriage, divorce, breakup, you're sick, someone's sick. I can go on and on, but it is such a traumatic earthquake moment. We try to compartmentalize these things.

You know, I lost my dad really suddenly in 2017. I talk about my bad boss moment and the double emails at midnight. You think you can put grief in the kitchen drawer, put it away, and just show up to work and try to operate as normal, and it doesn't work that way, 'cause grief is, uh, relentless. It'll come find you least when you expect it, and that's when your bad boss behaviors can show up as well. I'd love to start with stress, um- Yes ... 'cause I think that one, uh, the other two I wanna get to as well, but in particular, I think every single human on the planet right now in some regard, right- Yes ... is feeling stress, right?

And I actually just had this conversation with a guest a few weeks ago, um, around particularly the impact of inflation in the US- Mm ... and how I do not think that there is an honest conversation happening on either side of the aisle about the impact that the increased cost- Sure ... of simply living your life is having. Yes. And, you know, how do we, when we're feeling these, not, uh, acute stresses, but these dull, ongoing stresses that feel like there's, like we don't have control over them. Like, if you go to the grocery store and your bill used to be $150 a week- Yes ... and now it's $250 a week, you feel like you can't control that. Crazy.

Yeah. How do we manage that dull, ongoing stress- Mm ... as a leader and not let it leak into how we perform in our job? I love what you said. I don't love that it's true, but it's this constant state of stress that we're living in, constant state of tress- uh, stress and anxiety, and it's like low levels. And so some days I'm like, "Why am I so stressed?"

And p- perhaps because it's everything happening in the world, and then it shows up in these moments. One of the things I believe is the foundation to good leadership is to take care of yourself, and so taking those moments to stay off social media, taking those moments to make sure... I mean, it's the, it is the conversation around anti-hustle culture. Listen, I have a book coming out. It's come out.

I'm in an intense drive period of my life, but as leaders, we have to be able to drive our teams through those drive periods and then rest. I'm not an Uber app. I can't be on demand 24/7. And so this idea that they're, you know, in those moments where I'm resting and recharging, I'm taking care of myself. I'm sleeping well.

I'm exercising. I'm drinking water. I'm taking walks. All of those things that help replenish me. And so in those moments of stress, are you doing those things?

Like, if I'm feeling stressed, I'm just gonna go out for a walk. I'm gonna put on some dance music and have a silly dance party with my kids. What are those moments that I can reconnect with myself and spark joy? And if we don't take care of ourselves, I don't know how we're expected to take care of each other in our workplaces or in our communities. Yeah, I completely agree.

Uh, we've been saying here on the show for a long time that health is a competitive advantage- Yes ... in business. Yes, it is. And far too f- f- far too few leaders actually, they may give lip service to that idea, but a lot of times, and I do a lot of entrepreneur coaching, startup coaching- Yes ... and these guys are so tilted, and by guys, guys and gals, all hu- you know, whoever the leader is. Yes. Um, they are so tense 24/7.

They are just dialed all the time, and they have, they, they're not taught the coping mechanisms to deal with this, so they turn to things like, you know, maybe it's they smoke pot every night before they go to bed- Yeah ... because it's the only way to land the ship- Sure, sure ... or something like this, and they don't realize the impact that that's having on them the next day. So how, how- Where do we go for information besides, besides starting to learn about the problem in, in your book and, and in your work and in others like yours, w- uh where do we go to get resources? Is it a mastermind? Is it a finding peers? Is it...

How do we actually start to educate ourselves on what we need to do to deal with this stress? I think have the conversation with the people you trust around you. Particularly, uh, ambiguity and stress right now is constant. I grew up in a time in corporate America where leaders were supposed to have all the answers. You know, it's like that pyramid.

I'm at top, and here's everyone else, and I know everything. Those days are long gone. And if you can't show some level of vulnerability at work, "I'm struggling at, with this. This is also stressing me out. I need help with this.

What do you think about this?" And people will say to me, "Well, I'm not interested in having a therapy session." I'm not telling you to get into long therapy session conversations at work or trauma dump. I'm just saying if you said, "You know, yeah, the tariffs are really stressful. We're gonna figure this out together.

This is what we know now, and this is what we don't know. This is what we can control," how much better does that sound that your leader just is saying that out loud versus just sweeping it under the rug? Yeah. That healthy, healthy vulnerability- Yes ... feels like a- I love that. Healthy vulnerability.

Yes Yes ... healthy vulnerability. 'Cause the, 'cause the o- the opposite is obviously toxic vulnerability. Yes. Yes, yes, yes Which I have, which I've experienced more. I, I had a, I had a boss who, who seemed, this was maybe seven or eight years ago, and before I maybe understood this concept, in retrospect I understood what was going on, but he would literally dump every life problem that he had, from problems in his marriage to kids to all this stuff, and it's like it would almost stress us out more 'cause now we're like- Sure ... "We have our own stuff."

Yeah. "And we have your stuff now." "And now we know every single thing that you have to deal with." Sure. And it was a way, and, and this is kinda what I would love for you to comment on, is like I, look, again, looking back, retrospect, at the time maybe I wasn't as sophisticated enough to under- uh, or m- mature enough in my career to understand what was happening, but in re- it was a way for him to justify the crappy things that he would do, say, et cetera- Sure.

Mm ... because he'd be like, "Well, I got this thing going on between me and my wife over here, so you know, I can just yell at you because I don't- Yes ... like the way you responded," or whatever. So one, I guess, maybe, maybe from the im- from the teammate's perspective, when you, when you see this we'll call it toxic vulnerability being used as an- Sure ... excuse mechanism for bad boss behavior, how do you deal with that? God. I, what you're talking about is, like, the get out of jail free card, the weaponizing vulnerability. "This is my permission to treat you badly because I'm telling you about all this personal stuff going on," and trauma dumping.

One of the ways you could deal with that situation, and listen, it's context and situation matters, particularly when there's power dynamics. If your boss is obviously more senior to you, how do you handle this? "I appreciate, Ryan," I'm gonna make you the bad guy. "I appreciate, Ryan, that you're sharing all of your things with me. I understand it's a hard time with you.

I'm actually gonna encourage you to go and talk to Modern Health, which is a benefit provider that we use, and there's opportunity to get coaching and counseling, because I don't, I'm not equipped, I'm not an expert in this. I don't know how else to help you." Y- just to offer other things and other ser- other services. The other thing is it's really hard. You don't wanna get into this counselor mode with your boss.

And so to say, "I'm sorry that's happening. Pause. I'd love to now talk about this project," which is an awkward kind of transition, but I found myself, Ryan, I also can enable this behavior. If I'm sitting there allowing the person to go on and on and on and on in the workplace and I'm not actually stopping it, then I'm enabling the behavior. What about someone who would push back and say, "But, but me, if I shut that down, am I gonna be penalized by it?

I'm worried I'm gonna be penalized by this person if I don't just take in all the crap they're dumping on me"? And that's, that's where context and situation matters- Yeah ... because you can be. But I do think if you are sincere in saying, like, "I care about what you're going through, and I wish I could help, and I actually think that you should go talk to this coach or counselor we have access to at the company," I think that's gonna be much more helpful than me. And I think if you're honest and sincere about it versus, like, "Stop trauma dumping on me," or, "Can we just go back to talking about the forecast?" You know, it just, the way you say it, and I think if somebody hears it with sincerity, hopefully they'll receive it in the way in which you're trying to convey the message.

Yeah, I love that point. I, I think, I think that's perfectly put, 'cause it's very easy because of your own stress or your own timelines to get frustrated by that lost time. And I know early in my career, um, I have fairly severe, uh, ADHD, um, uh, diagnosed, not self-diagnosed. Um, and early in my career I didn't understand why I responded to people in certain ways. Mm.

Right? 'Cause s- like, I would be like, I'm going like this all the time and I'm like, "Why can't you keep up?" Like, "Why are we- Sure. Sure ... wasting time? Like, you know, my brain is going 1,000 miles an hour." Right, right.

And it wasn't until I, like, had a couple negative experiences where I got fired from jobs that I loved because of this behavior where I just wanted to go all the time that I went and got some help and came back. Okay. My point is, um, you know, we, we have so much going on in our lives, it's very easy to just snap at that person- Sure it is ... you know? And, and now you get into a adversarial relationship with that boss. So, um, maybe h- how do we, and, and this is maybe being a little, uh, uh, uh, selfish in this question only because, um, I wish I had spoken to someone like you before I said some of the things that I said in certain jobs when I was frustrated by the pace.

When we do, w- let's say, let's say I do have a negative reaction, right? So let's say I am, uh, uh, uh, trauma dumping on you, right? And you're, you got your own stuff going on and you snap back at me, and now, now we have some conflict. Now we have some hierarchical conflict, right? I felt like I was being authentic and vulnerable with you, and now I feel, like, dismissed or like you don't wanna hear me and-Hear that?

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All ETFs are subject to risk including possible loss of principal. Alps Distributors Inc., distributor. Now, how do we start to put that relationship back together? If, if, if- Mm ... both of us are coming at our core from a good place, right? Yes.

Let's assume we're both good actors. Yeah. Yes, yes. But we're, we now have that conflict. How do we start to, to dis- distangle that, um- Mm.

Yeah ... I don't know if distangle is a word, but I'm gonna go with it. Detangle? Detangle. Detangle.

Detangle's probably better, yeah. Detangle. That seems more in line with. I'm thinking of my daughter's hair I have to comb every night with- Yes ... detangling spray. Detangle.

Detangle. So I love that question, and I believe apologies are the most underutilized tool in the workplace. And it's not the apology my husband gives me, "I'm sorry I made you feel that way." Like, that's a non-apology. But it is the, "Ryan, I slept on this.

I was thinking about our conversation yesterday. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for the way I showed up. I'm sorry I snapped." And wow, all of a sudden the balloon is popped.

And then you say, "I reacted negatively too. I'm sorry for my behavior." And if we could just do that. And it's not the I'm sorry for the check the box, right? It is the I'm sorry genuinely and let's start to repair this relationship and start again.

If we could all own our actions a bit more in the workplace, and also just show, I mean, we just need more kindness too. Kindness. I don't, you don't know what's going on behind the screen. You really don't know what's going on in someone else's life. And just to show some kindness or to say, "Ryan, I know yesterday's conversation was tense.

Are you okay? I'm sorry for the way I snapped and behaved. This was going on." And then you're likely to be like, "Wow, she came and she was open. I'm gonna apologize as well."

And I think that's one of the first steps to repairing relationships. Yeah, and I really like the way you, um, the idea of I'm sorry for, for the way that I showed up yesterday. Yes. Yeah. 'Cause I think what that does is w- for both parties, it, we're discussing what the problem actually is, and not, it, it, it keeps the conversation from spreading into other things, right? Yeah.

It's this interaction that we had yesterday. I had X, Y, Z going on. I heard something. I reacted incredibly poorly. Yeah.

I shouldn't have been in that mindset for that meeting and whatever, and I apologize for that. That, I think, allows everybody to take and focus on what the issue is versus when we give that, like, what, the, the, the husband apology, which- Yes ... you know, I'm as guilty of as anyone, right? What ends, that opens the door to, "But then you did this thing the other day, and three weeks ago you did this." Yes. And now all of a sudden we're down this spiral- Yes ... that just is not productive.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's the I'm sorry. That's it. If you can't say, "I'm sorry for the way I behaved," I'm sorry full stop is an apology. No but, if, and, when.

Mm-hmm. I'm sorry for how you behaved, Ryan. No. Right? And so that'll, that's what I want people to just take the accountability and help repair your part of the relationship.

Yeah. The best advice I ever got was from a mentor about, well, it's probably eight years ago now. He said, uh, "Go find a counselor that you respect and just see them every other week for the rest of your life and consider it a life expense. Whether you're in a good spot, bad spot, doesn't matter, for the rest of your life." And she always says, so I go see this woman, her name's Margie, she's amazing.

She's 84 years old. She's an absolute rock star. You would never know, uh, uh, that, you know, that she's 84. She's got all this life experience. And she always says to me, you know, f- she goes, "Any I'm sorry that's followed by a but is not an I'm sorry."

Yeah. "It completely negates everything you've said." She goes- Cancels. Cancels. Yeah, completely cancels.

Like, so she's like, "Don't ever say I'm sorry, but." Right. Like, even if in your head there is a but, just don't let it come out of your face. Like, don't, like, you can say the but in your brain. Yes.

Don't let it come out of your face 'cause the other person stops listening. It washes it away. Um, all right, I wanna dig into a particular, um, part of, and then we're getting a little minutiae here, but the idea of micromanaging. And I, and I would love to start with the, the boss side of this, right? And I get, you know, a lot of times when I'm, when I'm talking to someone who's in a leadership position or a founder, et cetera, they f- the, the, the, the excuse for micromanaging will be I know how to do it better, or- Yes ... this is a really important time in my business, or insert, you know, two or three others.

But it's like they're excusing for, for just sitting on top of somebody and watching every move, and then they wonder why that person either doesn't become a high performer or it doesn't get done the, exactly the way they want. So how do we break down this idea from the boss side of, of micromanaging and, and why... I mean, maybe there are use cases where micromanaging works, but I have never experienced one, nor have I ever heard one, and we're looking at almost 1,000 interviews on this show now. Yes, yeah. So, um- I haven't- ...

I've yet to see a receipt for micromanaging. Yeah. Listen, if you're listening to this episode and you worked for me years ago, I'm sorry, I was micromanaging Nita. And I also hate to be micromanaged, so how interesting is that? And there's nothing like micromanagement to squeeze out, the joy out of work for me.

And what I've studied is you think about the workplace, Ryan, and you think about the history of workplaces. And I was always chasing the corporate America dream. I wanted a glass corner office with a city view, bathroom, fridge, hopefully a minibar, a couch, and I get to look out and see all the people reporting i- into me, right? Like this empire building. And a lot of individuals are not interested in leading, but they're forced to lead because that's how much of our workplaces were built.

That if you're going to get promoted, you're gonna get title, money and all that stuff, but you're gonna have to actually oversee more people. And so this idea that you go from individual contributor to a boss leader, you are not doing their jobs for them. You're coaching them. But many of us were never taught that. The first assignment I got to lead, it was like, "Congratulations, here's your team."

And it's like, is there a manual? Like, what am I supposed to do now, right? So there's that, but I also think we go back to stresses. Why do people micromanages, micromanage? You're threatened by your team, you're threatened that you're gonna lose your job, you're under pr- pressure from your boss, you think you can g- do it faster.

All the things that you said. And what you have to realize is the, the number one job of leaders is to grow more leaders. And so if you're doing someone's job for them, they're not learning. You have to coach, teach, and train, and I've been guilty of this. I've sent back a client proposal red-lined.

"Ryan, here you go." And then Ryan's like, "Oh my God, I worked on this for hours." And this is, there's no like, "Why did you do this?" W- this is, this was the first version. Here's what the second version should look like.

There's no conversations around that, and so that's important. And I will tell you, like, for much of my career I demanded excellence, but I didn't coach excellence, and there's a difference. And so thinking about how are you in that coach mode to help people understand what your standards are is so important. Love that distinction. Um, we used to say in, in, in my company, it's not about being right, it's about getting it right.

Mm. It's all that matters. Yes. We're of service of each other. And it, you know, and this is how I coach founders today because exactly what you say, they, they, they look at it and it's like you don't realize CEO is a job.

Yes. President is a job. It's not sales, it's not marketing, it's not HR. It's a job in and of itself- Yes ... to come behind them and make those positions as good as they can be, 'cause that's what they do. Yes.

HR does HR. Sales is, is sales, right? And I, um, that is not taught anywhere, right? Or, or just not enough in my opinion. And to your point, like you got this position and they were just like, "Here's a bunch of people.

Go make them successful." Right. Right? And there's no, there's no training on being that. Yes.

And even a lot of management training is, like, all about ... And n- I'm not knocking Measure What Matters, but I feel like people read the title and get the concept completely wrong. Mm. Right? Yes.

They're like, "We need to measure everything, and all that matters is measurement." And it's like- Right ... well, yeah, I mean, you gotta hit numbers. You're a business. You need to be profitable obviously. But that's not actually what produces results.

And so I, I ... To me, it comes back to, and this is, you know, in, in, in your work, and I was diving into some of the articles you wrote and stuff, and, and I feel like we're aligned here, but I really wanna get your ideas. Like, so much of what I teach is just ego. Literally. What I'm, when I'm talking to people- Yeah ... it's about removing ego.

Yeah. My TED Talk that I did was 100% about how ego impacts our ability to lead, and it, we aren't, we have almost no education on how to deal with our own ego. And so much of this comes back to this. Do you agree with that premise that ego is a big part of it, and- I agree ... and how do you deal with that? Ego, personal agenda.

I mean, look at what's happening in the marketplace right now. I mean, change is constant, layoff is constant, KPI is changing, all these things. And I, I watch companies and I'll work with leaders who, "You know, I thought that project was canceled," but because of ego, it's continuing on because I need to think this is so important. Even though the company has said, "This is not our top three priorities anymore for 2025 or w- we're gonna land in 2026," and it is the ego. And because I think so much of us, unfortunately I've been guilty of this, we derive a lot of value from our title, and it so much becomes a part of our identity.

Like, you think about you, I love the ego piece that you brought up. When you're at a cocktail party or you're out somewhere and meeting people for the first time, it's like, "What do you do for a living?" Like, what do you ... Like, that, that becomes who you are, so your ego becomes so tied to it unfortunately. Yeah.

A- and I, I actually had a, I got into a debate about this the other day. I was keynoting and then I was talking to a few people afterwards, and, uh, I brought up this idea of ego on stage, 'cause again, it's a lot of the work that I do. And someone, you know, someone brought a really interesting point to me, and I, and I, and I, I responded, but the more I think about it, I'm just not exactly sure where I, where my head is at yet, so I'm gonna put it to you. So they came up to me and they said, "Appreciate everything you said," whatever. "Amazing job," 'cause I'm an amazing keynote speaker.

Everyone knows. Yes. I have my show. I can say whatever I want. No.

Yes, of course. I'm sure you are. Uh, but they came up to me and they said, you know, whatever, but, but, right? I got the but, which, which is my favorite type of post- ... talk- There you go ... uh, comment, is when the but comes. And they said, uh, this particular individual said, "But people respond to you based on the title that you have.

So if you are, you can talk about ego, but if your title is junior analyst, people treat you one way, and if your title is senior manager, they respond to you a different way." So chasing, y- you know, I, I had brought up this idea of chasing the title or whatever in the, in the talk, and they said, "But so while I agree with you that ego is a problem, if you, if you want to make more of an impact and get a better response from other individuals, oftentimes that, that title is kind of your, your, your pass, you know, behind the rope in certain instances." What do you think about that? How do you manage that? I, I didn't have a great ...

It was a, it was something that I hadn't actually wrapped my head around enough to have a great response to, but I'm very interested in where you stand on that. I'm curious to see in five years where the world's gonna be in terms of job descriptions and titles, right? I, I think, like, we're moving to a place where we're gonna all, many companies will be in, like, a consultancy mode. And so then what do titles matter? It's gonna be like you have Mita has this skill set, and it's not even a job description.

We just know these are our highest value projects for 2026, so we're gonna move her there. Isn't that interesting? And I think the whole title conversation is blowing up. I do think if in you're, in you're in smaller companies, think titles matter less. I'm not gonna say that at a Fortune 50 titles don't matter.

But also here's the thing. We all know who the most influential people in the org are. We just know, and it's not always the title, right? It's really interesting. Chief of staff, they're some of the most influential people in the company.

EAs, EAs are overlooked. Let me tell you, you become best friends with an executive assistant, I hope they're not, not all becoming, you know, bots in a few years, but some of the... Oh my God, I have gotten so much from EAs who I've developed really strong relationships with. So I would counter that, and I, I think it's yes and, right? I hate the but.

I'm like, yes, and is what I like. N- no, I think that's a wonderful way of positioning it, and I think that's a really interesting idea around the titles. I, to me, to me, like, I think my brain is slightly broken because, like, those kinds of things have literally never mattered to me. So I've experienced people, and I have experienced it on the side of, like, you know, when I was a junior, you know, I was junior in certain organizations. You get treated differently than you do in other times.

Sure. Again, that was also 25 years ago. Yeah. You know, so there's a little bit of, of t- difference in timing. But than where we are today, I think I agree with you, and I'm, I'm really interested and would love for you to expand on this idea of we all move more towards consulting, either internally or externally as organizations.

Obviously, we have our, our expertise, but maybe expand on that a little bit, 'cause I have a feeling that's an idea that not a lot of people have really spent a lot of time thinking about. Yeah, I've just been studying the marketplace for the last few years, like many of us have been, and you think about what's happening with AI and the race to embrace AI. You think a lot, you think a lot about, um, roles that are being eliminated, tech over-hiring, all these things converging. And I start to think, well, is it really about the titles and the boxes, or are we moving to a place where you're just gonna be chasing those high-value projects and putting your best talent, especially with, I mean, it's a cliche now, change being constant. The ambiguity is constant.

Um, whether it's the economics that we're living in today, whatever administration's in charge, whatever legislations. I mean, every day there's something that businesses have to react to. So how can you be in a place where you have these people in boxes and titles? Now we go back to the ego piece, which you talked about, but that's how I derive my value, right? I've been working so hard to become a vice president, and now you're just gonna say, I'm like, Mita Mallick, director.

Like, everybody has a director title, and you just push them against different projects. Listen, I think smaller companies are ... And, and you are coaching a lot of founders, so you see this. Smaller companies are more nimble and able to do this. I'm really interested in the very large companies.

I think that they're gonna start thinking about division-wide how they might do something like this as well. Yeah. So even though I tend to work more with smaller companies, uh, the insurance industry has been my home industry for about 20 years now. So you, yes. And, um- Hear that?

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All ETFs are subject to risk, including possible loss of principal. Alps Distributors, Inc., distributor. You know, some, we saw some, we're seeing some really interesting things happen. Uh, Acrisure just announced a $4,000, or $4,000, 4,000-person layoff, and- Ooh, yeah ... you just don't see large layoffs like that in many orgs on the property casualty insurance side because of the kinda steady nature, and they referenced automation and AI as one of the reasons why they were laying these individuals off. That is, I'm gonna use the word intriguing to be not apocalyptic because, like, we don't see things like that in that space.

In insurance, no. It just doesn't happen. Sure. So this, this idea of, of change, like, the insurance industry is also, like, if there was, like, a video game strength meter, it would be, like, down at zero for change management. Well, I mean, I think the US government's similar, right?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, when did you ever hear about someone from the government being laid off? Like, I know friends who went into the government knowing that they'd have a stable job, right, for years. Um, so it's really interesting.

Or education, right? I'm talking about, like, universities, like- Mm-hmm ... private, you know, like, wow, layoffs there. So absolutely. So do you see this becoming more of a barbell where we have large enterprises and then small, nimble organizations, and this middle layer starts to get thinned and thinned? Or how does that distribution work over time?

Or at least what, what you're, what you're seeing today. I mean, I think you still... Here's the thing. Y- y- we still have a leadership crisis. Like, we still need people to lead, right?

Like, you can do this sort of model I'm talking about, but who's gonna step up and lead, and how are you gonna train and coach those? And I think as we hopefully embrace AI more and more, it actually frees people up to be human. It frees people up to apologize, to repair relationships, to actually coach and teach people on the things that I think in my lifetime AI is not gonna be able to teach, right? And so I hope we think about that. But it is also making leadership more attractive for individuals because I think as I talk to people, I know a number of people who are like, "I just wanna stay on the individual contributor track."

Especially in tech, right? It's easier in engineering, in the engineering lane to do that. You can continue to make more money, build expertise, get recognition. You don't have to look after anyone but yourself. But if everyone's gonna choose that, then who's gonna lead?

And so how do you provide resources and support for people to want to step into th- these leadership roles?Yeah, a case study to support what you just said is the movement to roll-ups in the insurance. And I don't mean to spend so much time on the insurance stuff here. Yeah, it's funny. But, uh, roll-ups are basically collections of agencies. Mm.

So for so long you had all these independent agencies spread out all over the country, but what most of the time the agency owner or principal, as they're called in the insurance industry, was also the top salesperson. And you're seeing a major move the last two or three years where those agency owners kind of just wanna go back to being sales professionals. Mm. And they're selling their equity stake to these- Wow ... these roll-up organizations- Yeah ... who take over the operations, admin, et cetera, so that they can kind of just be individual contributors maybe much more of their day. I mean, they still kind of ha- maybe have a say, but they're much more individual contributors, and you're seeing that because it's really difficult.

If you are not, if you do not have the type of, um, if you don't have the ability to handle change, adjust, adaptability- Yes ... the open-mindedness to see what's coming and spend time researching it, it, you feel like you're getting bludgeoned every day. Yes. Yes. Yes. And then you also get further and further away from the thing you love, which happens, right?

When, that's the, that's the struggle. Like, I love storytelling. I grew up as a marketer. I was a marketing executive. And the har- the, the further you go up the rank, the farther you are away from the thing you love.

You're teaching other people to do it, but you don't get to do it. You don't get to write the social media post. I mean, I do now, 'cause I have my own social media fo- but, like, you don't get to do that for, you're showing, you're having an agency do it, and they're showing you 10 rounds, and, you know, it just, you get further and further away from the thing you love. And you're like, "This is terrible. Just let me do it myself."

I know. You go right back to being the bad boss. You can't. Right. Exactly.

You gotta coach them. Right. Exactly. No, I get it. I, I started this podcast, uh, five years ago as a response to exactly what you said.

I had founded my own, uh, business, and as I got, just like as you described, as we grew and got more people, I got further away from doing the marketing work. I grew up as a marketer as well. And I was like, "You know what? I just wanna create, and talk- Yes ... and tell stories," and I started this podcast for that reason. Amazing.

It really, a catharsis for myself- Yeah. Right. Yeah ... just to get that creativity- An outlet. Yeah ... out of me. It's so funny.

Amazing. Like, you can't, you, you, it's like you can, you can take your s- you can try to pretend to be something and, and, and maybe even grow into something, right? That leadership position. But there, like, who, you can't escape who you are at the end of the day. You know?

Yeah. Like, you just can't get away from it, and you need that outlet. And, um, I think a lot of times the, the negativity or reactivity that comes out of leaders is maybe it's an expression of a frustration to not actually be doing what they like. Yeah. Absolutely.

You know? They're, they're man- they're like- Yeah ... 'cause managing people is really hard. It is hard. Um- Yeah ... and we do not give enough credence to that. So, um, I, I, I'm, I'm very interested in what else you see coming down the pipe, 'cause you're very dialed on, um, and, and not that I expect you to be like, "This is 100% what we have," and we, no one knows, but you are very dialed into what's happening in these large organizations- Yeah.

Yeah ... and kind of seeing out into the future. So what other trends do you come seeing, what other trends do you see coming down the pipe- Yeah ... that you think leaders should be at least have their antennas up on? Listen, I'm not a tarot card reader. I don't have a crystal ball. I just like to study people and cultures.

I'm, I'm like a people watcher, right? Not to sound creepy, but I like to watch people. I like to see what's happening, and I'm like, "Oh, this might be coming." You know, I think, um, the biggest thing I'm thinking about right now is loyalty is dead in our workplaces, and what does that mean? So I think about my, uh, you know, an uncle from years ago.

He worked at AT&T. He worked there for 30 years and got a gold Rolex. So that, that, that social contract, Ryan, doesn't exist anymore, meaning I work for you, and you're gonna make sure I have job security, I've got benefits, I've got pension. I'm taken care of, and that's the exchange for you taking care of me, is my unwavering loyalty. That doesn't exist anymore.

So what does that mean for the employer and employee? I don't think we're renegotiating that contract. I mean, the AT&T CEO came out and said that loyalty is dead pretty much a while ago, and I was like, wow, that's like the first person who's come out and said that, because that's the thing that we're not talking about. And so that's what the consultancy model is very interesting, because it's almost, we, most of us are at-will employees in the US, right? But it's like this contract.

It's like you're renew- renegotiating the contract every year, and I'm gonna be loyal to you in the moment that we're working on this project. But, you know, for people that I coach and mentor, it's like, always have your resume ready. I know so many people who have side hustles and passion projects, as you should, and then you have the employer at work getting really angry that they see Mita has a podcast or is doing this or that, and it's like, well, there's no job security anymore. She shouldn't be doing those things. And I think that's really broken in our workplaces, and I'm really interested to see how leaders renegotiate this and think about this in the years to come.

Love this topic. Uh, 'cause I completely agree. I saw it firsthand with my father, who worked 26 years on the railroad and got downsized, and they were like, "Have a nice day." And he's like, "Whoa, wait a minute. Uh, I've basically given up my entire life to work in this place- Wow ... and it's just over?"

Yep, over. Tiny little severance. Have a nice day. You get 65% of your pension because you didn't hit 32 years- Wow ... which he had no control over. And, like, I look at this, 'cause, 'cause I get this all the time from bus- employees are, you know, they, no one cares today.

And I'm like, well, how much loyalty are you showing them? You care. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, this is the part that, like, I can't listen to, to leaders or organizations bitch about employee loyalty when they literally do nothing to show loyalty to the people, right? They don't earn it. There was a day when- Yes ... if you put in your 30 years, you got the pension, your family was taken care of, you could move to wherever you want and have the house- Right ... and the car, and you had this nice little second life and, and it was there. It was guaranteed.

When that died- Why would the employees continue to be loyal? Exactly. Like, I don't understand that, that methodology. And to be honest with you, it, like, infuriates me, 'cause it, I mean, my dad is one case, but I've seen it over and over again. Yeah, over and over.

Seeing it, I mean, I know people are listening that are going through this. Yes. It's unbelievable. And it's this idea that because you're paying me once every two weeks, you've earned my loyalty, like this. You haven't.

You have to, you have to earn it actively every single day through those small and big actions. And so I think that's the biggest crisis that's f- uh, facing the modern-day workplace right now. So let's, let's just play a, a, a game for a sec and, and just think through how would you fix that? Let's say, let's say we're, we're running a company. You're, you're, you're the CEO and we ha- we have a company, and you go, "You know what, Ryan?

I'm gonna fix this. I'm gonna fix it." Right? We're gonna fi- w- I wanna be the loyal company. I wanna be the company.

Our competitive advantage from a hiring perspective is we are going to be loyal to our people in a way where they appreciate it, trust it, respect it. How would you, are- Well, I mean, these are hard conversations. I'd say, "I'm gonna be loyal to my people. I'm willing to cut my pay." I mean, look at some of these CEO...

It's so fascinating to me, right? Like, the, the millions and millions of dollars, not of just, like, cash, bonus, stock, and you're like, "Okay, so who is the CEO who's willing to say, 'I'm not gonna take my paycheck for a year, and instead I'm gonna make sure that I see this company through the crisis'"? I mean, I'm sure there's, like, a few, but it's not something that people are often doing, so that's really interesting. Do you have a model where you have a fixed employee base and then everyone else is contracting? Do you have a model where they're contractors and it's just you're re-upping people?

Like, "I, I can be loyal to you for the next two years because we have this project." B- I mean, those are hard conversations, right? But that's where the world is moving. And so again, we go back to what you talked about in terms of building trust and repairing trust. Loyalty is earned in terms of, like, how you treat each other in the workplace.

And I can remember Ryan leading a business that was in double-digit decline. It was one of the toughest moments of my career, and one of the happiest. I didn't update my resume, not once, which sounds astounding, right? But I had a VP who cared, would show up with Starbucks. We were in the trenches together.

The whole team, we were like, "We're gonna turn this around," and we did. We did. But it was that, like, I mattered, my voice mattered, my contributions mattered. I had a seat at the table. Like, I was a part of turning this around, and that was like, w- earned my loyalty.

If this person calls me tomorrow, I would go help them, and I'd likely go work for them again. And so think about those moments. Just shouldn't... I don't mean that is hard. I mean this topic shouldn't be that hard.

It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be that hard. Like, like, y- you were talking about the CEO's salary, right? Like, everybody likes making money. It's all good.

But it's really tough as some- and so I was raised in the middle of the woods with nothing. My dad was a mechanic on the railroad, like I said. My mom was a receptionist. Like, my first job out of college, I made $65,000 a year, and I made more than the two of them made combined at any time in their life. Okay?

So I, like, very much... And then, and then I've had a lot of professional success, so I've seen the other side, too. Sure. So I've seen the whole spectrum. And, like, there is nothing that makes my blood boil more than when you see a leader who's making a ridiculous outsize salary, right, who then has the gall to complain about the, the, the mother who's making $60,000 a year- No ... on a, in an entry-level job in the company who's trying to grind out, and she needs a half hour to go pick up- Exactly ... her kid from school- Yes, yes ... 'cause he just frigging puked.

And now he's gonna bitch about her and say she's not loyal 'cause she needed to go pick up her kid from school? Like, this is a real conversation that I heard. And I'm like, "Bro, you're making two and a half million dollars a year." Yes. "She's making $60,000 a year.

You're telling me she can't take a half hour to go pick her kid up- No, no ... 'cause her kid just puked at school- Yeah ... and make sure that kid's taken care of? What the is wrong with you?" Yeah. Like, what is wrong with you? Yeah.

And, like, that's, you wanna talk about destroying loyalty- There it is ... doing her shit is how you destroy loyalty, 'cause then- Yeah ... everybody hears it and sees it. Sorry, I didn't mean, I, sorry, I don't wanna- No, I mean, and you know how you build loyalty is to say, "Oh, my God, go take care of your kid." Go take care of him. "Don't even worry about it." That is the moments that matter.

I won't forget that. Yes. I won't forget that you were so supportive and let me leave to go take care of my sick child. Yeah. That's priceless.

This is such a big topic for me because- It is, and I, and you know, you're talking about two and a half million, and there are CEOs making 250 million. But yeah, no, I know. I know. This particular case- No, we're talking about, like, the really large Fortune 50, and you're like, "And you're gonna do all these layoffs? What if you just said, 'I'm not gonna take my salary for a year'"?

Yeah. Or even just took a reasonable salary for a while. Like, yeah. You know what I mean? Like something.

Amazing, like a reasonable cut. Yeah. Like how about you make 100,000 a year? Yeah. And, and this gets me so fired up because of, you know, maybe my background or whatever, but, like, I grew my company with hi- by hiring moms with young kids and single moms.

I love that. Because in the insurance industry, my business was in the insurance industry, um, those women struggle to, to punch in, punch out 8:30 to 4:30. Sure. Yeah, of course. Right? 'Cause of all the responsibilities they have- Yes ... and different things, and they got kids, and they're doing all this different stuff.

And like I said, the kid pukes at 11:00 and you gotta go pick 'em up from school, whatever. Yeah. Right? So, like, I ha- I basically went to a fully, like, I hired these women, and I basically said, "I don't care when you punch in. I don't care when you punch out.

There are certain things I just need to get you done, I need you to get done during the day. I'm gonna W-2 you so you don't have to go hourly," right? You're not, you're, you can get taken care of. "And at the end of the month, I just need this much stuff." Right?

Yeah. So, like- That's great ... "I need you to produce this at the end of the month. And, you know, but on a day-to-day basis you may not, you may, some days you might work six hours, some days you might work nine hours. Whatever you gotta get done.

But that flexibility's there for you." And the talent that I acquired was- Amazing ... insane. I mean, some of the most talented people I've ever worked with who had literally been thrown out the door by other organizations 'cause they couldn't time punch a card 8:30 to 4:30. Sure. Yeah.

And I was like- How stupid are you as a, or, or how undeserving of a leadership position are you that you could look at this person, one, not understand how talented she is, and two, not give her a little bit of frigging grace to take- Yes ... care of her shit so that she doesn't have that stress that we talked about at the beginning of the call? Yeah, absolutely. I like, you know, maybe this, being raised by a single mom or whatever, but like I lose my mind on this topic. 'Cause, like also, just from a pure selfish capitalistic standpoint, they were awe- like we were- Right ... cranking because- Yeah ... of how talented they were. So like how dumb are you by letting this rock star go out the door? Like, you know, even if you- Competitive advantage.

Well, thank you for showing us what good leadership looks like. No. That's exactly that. Not perfect. No, absolutely.

I, I don't want to, to, to- But I mean, it's, it ... Well, listen, we swing back and forth, bad boss, good leader. Yeah. Bad boss, good leader. That's life.

It's not a- Yeah ... it's not a static state. But I do get fired up about this. Um, so, uh, the book is The Devil Emails at Midnight? Yes. Where can people get the book?

Where can they find more of you? Um, I know you write an amazing LinkedIn. I'm gonna have all your stuff linked up. Yeah, thank you. Everyone, make sure you connect and follow Mita on LinkedIn, 'cause the topics that you're touching on, I think, are as timely as it gets from a leadership perspective.

Where else can they go to get into your world? Yeah. So The Devil Emails at Midnight: What Good Leaders Can Learn From Bad Bosses, USA Today bestseller. You can get it on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, your local independent bookstore. You can find me on LinkedIn, it's my preferred social media platform, and mitamalek.com.

Thanks so much for having me. This was an awesome conversation. Oh, it was my pleasure. It was wonderful, and, uh, I appreciate the time. I know you're very busy, in demand.

No, thanks for having me. I love it, and thank you so much. Thank you. That was so much fun. You're such a great host.

Thank you. Hear that? That's me in Tokyo learning to make sushi from a master. How did I get here? I invested wisely.

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