The Fascinating Impact of a Hard Market on Insurance Carriers w/ Curtis Goldsborough

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You just gotta put stuff out there and see what happens. Like, and actually, and, and that's a big part of, I think, where people, whether they're, whether they're, uh, using it to, to bring awareness to a personal brand or to a business or they're selling something, whatever the reason, um, is they'll put stuff out, and then they won't go back and, like, look and see w- w- what actually happened. Did people actually comment? Did they like it? How much reach did it get?

Like, and then, and then think for themselves, "Okay, why did that happen?" In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. Today we have a tremendous conversation for you with Curtis Goldsborough, innovative loss control expert, InsurTech aficionado, creator, the guy that does the InsurTech wraps at ITC. He's also the president of National Insurance Inspection Services and an all-time meme creator on LinkedIn about the insurance industry.

And guys, if you're not following Curtis on LinkedIn, I highly recommend you do. Um, his takes and his, um, kinda sarcastic memes that he creates about the insurance industry I find to be thoughtful and hilarious, uh, and just all around good guy. And I really wanted to have Curtis on just for his perspective. We have so many people on this show who in some way, shape, or form are directly creating or working in the retail side of the independent insurance agency space, and I just wanted to get an outside perspective from someone who is, you know, interesting and thoughtful, obviously Curtis, Curtis fits the bill, um, that doesn't directly sell to and/or sell, uh, retail insurance. And while Curtis has had, uh, retail sales experience in the insurance industry before as a, as a agency owner for Farm Bureau, um, for the last 10-plus years he's worked for National Insurance Inspection Services and has a unique perspective on the way various dynamics, particularly, uh, the hard market that we're currently operating in, have impacted the insurance industry and insurance carriers.

And we talk a little bit about what that means, what he's seeing f- uh, across the board, particularly as it relates to homeowners, uh, insurance and property loss, et cetera, and why the hard market and various cat losses that we've had, uh, s- in the last, you know, say, half dozen years or so have created a fragility in our industry that most are not aware of. So it's, it's an awesome conversation, and as I said, I highly recommend you connect with Curtis on LinkedIn, follow along with what he's doing. We'll have, uh, his LinkedIn profile in the show notes, whether you're watching on YouTube or listening on the podcast. And, uh, you can also just, uh, go to LinkedIn and search for Curtis Goldsborough and, and you'll find him. Uh, before we get there, guys, just wanna go quick shout-out to you for listening to this show.

If you love what we're doing here, if you're not subscribed, subscribe. Uh, if you are subscribed and you love what we're doing, love for you to share the show. Just share it out in your socials, text it to a friend, email it to a friend. That's how more people find what we're doing, find this, these conversations, find this content. And hopefully, uh, through the various episodes, through the guests that we have, through the conversations, thoughts, ideas, uh, something resonates that helps you grow, helps you become a better leader, helps you become a better sales professional, or whatever it is that you're doing, helps you better understand this industry and how you can be successful within it.

Uh, and if you wanna go down that rabbit hole even further, I recommend you visit masterclass.insure. That's masterclass.insure. This is the Insurance Growth Masterclass website where you can, uh, join a community of people that are growing their business like no others. This is dynamic, it is interesting, it is pushing the boundaries of what it means to grow your agency, to build scalability, predictability, and sustainability through inbound marketing. Guys, this is the culmination of 18 years of my work in this space, and, uh, it is just such a pleasure to be providing this to you guys.

So go to masterclass.insure today. And with that, guys, let's get on to Curtis Goldsborough. Well, dude, I'm excited to have you on the show. You are, like, the, uh, insurance LinkedIn meme master, and maybe even just, like, you may have ascended even past just insurance in terms of your meme skills. But, um, dude, it's, like, funny.

It-- I love your takes. It's so engaging, and, uh, uh, I probably have interacted with too many of them 'cause now, like, it seems like everything you post just, like, comes to the top of my LinkedIn feed. A mission accomplished. Yes. It's-- Dude, I give you so much props.

It's great. I mean, it's, uh, this is not the easiest space to, like, find ways to make it humorous and that didn't, you know, that doesn't then just, like, completely offend somebody. So, uh, I, I found it to be, uh, I found it to be awesome. I mean, like, why, why do you use, like, that type of content? Like, where did that come from?

You know what I mean? Like, you have a very distinct style, obviously. So where, where does all that come from? Yeah, I mean, uh, you know, I wish that I had a profound answer for that. But, you know, it's one of those things where I've always been a creative person, um, and I always, you know, felt like I had a interesting take on things but didn't really know ... what the right outlet was you know, for that, or how to, how to convey that.

You know, and so I mean, a couple years ago, I guess, well, gosh, four years ago for InsurTech Connect in Vegas, I had, you know, written this InsurTech rap and kinda collaborated with the Insurance Nerds group on that. And- Yep ... those always kind of got a little, you know, got a little bit of traction and made some waves, but then I had no, you know, no intentional plan to, like, capitalize on that, you know- Yeah ... attention or build upon it. But I did one every year for the last four years, and then this year really put a lot of energy and time and effort into it to, you know, try to make it really up the production value and all of that, and it, and it made a pretty big splash. And this year I was like, "You know what? I need to..." 'Cause, like, literally for the past four years, like, I would post this InsurTech rap video at ITC time, and then do nothing on LinkedIn after it, you know?

Yeah. And so this year I was like, "You know what? I'm gonna grease the wheels a little bit leading up to it, and get the algorithm at least recognizing who I am." Yep. Um, you know, and then that really helped engagement on, on that InsurTech rap video this year, which was, you know, called Hard Market, and that just really resonated with a ton of people.

And, and I had a ton of fun with it. And yeah, and so then beyond that, just I've kinda followed up with, uh, quite frankly, I don't even know where the first kind of meme idea came from, but, like, you know, I, I made one and it resonated and got tons of engagement and really hit. And- Right ... um, I was like, "Holy cow, this, this really seems to work." You know? It resonates with people.

And, um, you know, and obviously I had, you know, had heard Gary Vee at ITC this year saying attention is everything, you know? Yep. Attention is your most valuable asset. And I was like, "Hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try this," you know? I've attracted some attention, but let me see if I can keep the ball rolling.

And- Yeah ... and it's just been kind of off to the races from there, and I'm still learning as I go, but I'm having a lot of fun with it, so. Yeah, and I, and I think that's the really most important part of that too, is that you're, you're doing it, and some of them are gonna work, some of them aren't. You know what I mean? It's, it's just you never know. I mean, that's the biggest thing when people come to me about, like, the, you know, inbound insurance stuff that I've done and whatever.

I'm like, "You know, I can give you a whole bunch of, like, things that you can do," and, and there are some best practices and obstacles you can set up, et cetera. But, like, really you just gotta put stuff out there and see what happens. Like, and actually... And, and that's a big part of, I think, where people, whether they're, whether they're, uh, using it to, to bring awareness to a personal brand or to a business or they're selling something, whatever the reason, um, is they'll put stuff out and then they won't go back and, like, look and see w- w- what actually happened. Did people actually comment?

Did they like it? How much reach did it get? Like, and then, and then think for themselves, "Okay, why did that happen? Did it... Was it," you know.

You know, I've seen, and this is gonna sound crazy, but I was testing emojis in the first line of my LinkedIn posts. Yep. And I found that if you use, like, the green box with the check, or if you use more positive related emojis, you tend to get more reach. Where if you use, like, a red X or you use, I was using, like, the alert siren thing- Yeah ... you get less. And I was like, 'cause I, I posted this one and, uh, I was like, I just thought, I thought I had hit on all the things.

I thought it was a good kinda contrarian title, but what I did was I framed it between two red, uh, X emojis. Yeah, yeah. And, like, it didn't go anywhere. And I was like, "What the..." I was so pissed.

You know what I mean? I was like, you know, so, so then I started testing and I found that, like, o- okay, that's not, for whatever reason, you, you know, it's like those are the kinda things that end up making a difference in the long run that I feel like people just don't wanna think that deeply on the nuance, but it is important. No, it absolutely is. And I mean, I'm sure that you're aware of this, right? But, like, if you watch any of the stuff, um, you know, from, from MrBeast, right?

Like, interviews that- Yeah ... he's done with, with Rogan or whoever, right? And, like, I mean, this, the literally the most successful and prolific YouTuber in history, right? Um, and if you ask him, like, he doesn't think that he's a creator, right? He's like, "I'm a data nerd." And he says that, you know, literally from the beginning he has just obsessed over analytics- Yeah ... and, like, what you were talking about, right?

And, like, you know, A, B, C, D, E, F, G testing, right? And, like- Yeah ... you know, just a- absolutely obsessing over that. And, um, yeah, I mean, it matters. It, you, you absolutely, um, you know, can get results. Uh, but it's work, right?

It's a lot of work. And I think this goes into really everything, everything that we do, you know, and, and probably outside of insurance too. But it's, it is this ability to test, test, test, test, test, and not care and not, um... You know, I actually just, I a couple days ago, and I've talked a little bit about this on the podcast, but I had this kinda back and forth with a couple people, 'cause I have this perspective that when you are working with inbound leads in a business, particularly in the insurance business, but that- that's what I know best, so we'll just stick to that, is that you solve the people's problem, you round out the account later. That is my particular take.

Yep. That is not my take because I ideologically believe that that's what it is. Uh- Yep ... it's my take because I think I personally have dealt with more and more diverse segments of inbound leads in this industry than maybe anybody that operates in it currently, right? Like, multiple different businesses- Yeah ... multiple different formats, listening to hundreds of agents, uh, my own businesses, businesses I've consulted for, et cetera. And if you focus, and I know there are people listening to this who are not gonna wanna hear this, but if you have a hard focus on rounding out accounts in the initial call or the initial sale, you're going to lose business.

And this is the part that everyone gets, get fr- gets, uh, like, pushes back on me on. Just because you solve someone's problem, and that's one policy today, that does not mean that's a bad account. Everyone immediately jumps to, "Well, if it's not a rounded out account, then the business isn't gonna stick." And I'm like- Yep ... uh, I buy clothes from, like, uh, four or five different brands, and I go back when I need them. Like, like, also, uh, just because you only have one account today doesn't mean that you can't call them back in a couple weeks and get the rest.

But there's, like, this sense, and I, and I think it goes for, for all of us, like, you know, and, and, and, and I ultimately wanna get into, like, where your technical expertise in the industry is too, like, but I feel like when someone calls you for a problem, don't, don't you just ... Or if you call someone for a problem, don't you just want them to solve your problem? Or do you want them to try to figure out all the problems that you have, and in that call then try to solve all the problems that you have? Like, you're like, "No, no, no, no, no. I just have this one problem I need to solve today so I can get this off my brain."

And, and, you know, I just ... You know, it's just funny how people get so ideologically bent on things. You know what I mean? And it's like, "This is the way it is. No, you have to round out accounts, or it's a bad account.

It won't be profitable." I'm like, "Says who?" I don't know. Uh, yeah. No, when I, I saw your post yesterday about that and saw some of the pushback and, and enjoyed, uh, the thought process- Yeah ... you know, and I can see, you know, see both sides of it.

Um, I, I feel like there is an interesting parallel maybe to some extent, you know, because I'm, I'm personally not on the agency side- Yes. Yep ... but more on the insurtech side, and in a- Yep ... in a B2B space, right? And, you know, so, so my clients are insurance carriers and MGAs. But- Yep ... I, I can totally see parallels even with, you know, for instance, just, just this in the past six months, um, you know, we had a, had a tier one carrier that came, you know, came to me and said, "Hey," like, you know, "we are looking for a new field inspection vendor," right?

Well, yeah, we do field inspections, but that's ... Like, we're shifting really quickly towards self-inspection, right? Yeah, yeah. And we've built our own proprietary technology on that. And, and, uh, you know, we're, we're kind of making a somewhat strategic shift in that direction, although it's j- it's happening organically as well.

Um, so, like, with that carrier, like, quite frankly, I'm not terribly interested in doing field inspections for them. Yeah. But I absolutely want to be a self-inspection provider for them. Yeah, yeah. Um, but I'm like, yeah, absolutely.

Like, you know, if, if I get that opportunity with them, so we're, we're doing field inspections with them and, and not making any money, quite frankly, but I want that door open, right? I wanna have my foot in the door. Yes. But I, I, I just feel like there's some bit of parallel there, right? Like- 100% there is ... where it's like, hey, let's ...

You know, I, I want that opportunity. Let's open the door. Let's start to establish a relationship. And, you know, even though the, the, quote unquote, "solution" that I'm providing for them right now is, is not exactly what I wanna be doing for them, um, but I'm gonna establish myself as, uh, you know, as a resource, as a solution provider, um, and continue to foster that relationship. And, and quite frankly, I mean, that was three months ago that we started, and next month I already have a demo set up with them for self-inspection, right?

So it- Yeah ... there's definitely that fostering process and bringing people along. And, um, yeah, I, I can totally see that. And I think, and, and I think that's a, I think it's a tremendous parallel, 'cause I completely agree. And, and where this is one of my arguments is, like, why is it that it ... Most of those people who are pushing back on me, in almost every other aspect of their life, they would probably agree solve the original problem.

But for some reason, in our space, it becomes- Yep ... "No, we have to solve all the problems." Yeah, you know what I mean? So I think it's a wonderful parallel, because it is, it is exactly how people want to buy, right? None of us wake up in the morning and go, "I need to find someone to solve every problem that I possibly have in X."

No, you're like, you know, my, my, whatever. Think about a problem with your home or your, you know, whatever's going on in your life. You're like, "I need this thing solved. I don't need all the problems solved. I need this one thing solved, and if you can solve it for me now, you, you go into the column of value creator, and now I'm willing to come back to you over and over again because I know you're a value creator."

Um, I just think that's, uh, it's kind of an old school methodology. I think you can be successful, guys. Don't, please don't start blasting me again or blowing up my DMs. This is the beauty of America. You get to do it however you want.

I just, uh, don't b- I just don't believe that, uh, I just don't believe that's the future. I don't believe the future is continuing to force people down the path that makes the most sense to you, the provider. I think we have to be like the Bruce Lee's philosophy of, you know, fit to th- fit the solution to what they need. And if writing their entire account or take, you know, pitching them every service you have, you know, if you're an insurtech or whatever, is what makes sense in that moment, great. But there ...

You should be, have the nimbleness, um, or mental dexterity to know when this person just needs me to solve this one problem, and it's, as you said, a shoe in the door to do the rest. So, uh, we can, we can move on from that topic. I actually, you know, I ... One of y- one of the memes, I think it might even be the one ... Yeah, you posted it today.

Um, you have this meme out there, which is awesome. I'll have it linked up in the show notes, guys. But it's, um, it's, uh, the one where the guy's ... It says insurance, and the guy's running on the treadmill, but he's attached to all these weights, and it says innovation is where he's running, and technical debt is the weights. And, uh, I wanted to ask you about this, 'cause, um, I actually was talking to, uh, Margo Giles, whose episode will come out, uh, maybe a couple before this.

I'm not sure where it'll all fall. But before this episode- Yep ... so you can go back and listen to her episode, guys, if you haven't. But this, this topic came up in our conversation with her, because she was, um, you know, she was kinda talking through some of her feelings and thoughts on why, you know, her competitors, her legacy competitors in, in her vertical, um, haven't made the change. And- You know, she brought up a couple ideas which were 100% legitimate, um, and then, but she didn't address the technical debt side. And I said, "How much do you think their unwillingness to move at pace, or at least the pace that, say, innovators and early adopters in our space would like them to move at..." 'Cause, 'cause I think everybody, even the, the big guys in the AMS space would agree that they do not move at the pace that innovators and early adopters would like them to.

I think they tend to move at, like, a early majority or late majority pace, depending on which one it is. Okay. So I said, "Do, how much do you think technical debt plays a role?" And I don't wanna necessarily, uh, mince... You know, I don't wanna, uh, misrepresent her feelings.

But in general, it was, she thought it was more a philosophical/profit decision than it was a, the, you know, turning the Titanic in the New York Harbor kinda thing. W- where do you fall in general? And it doesn't have to be about the AMS systems, but just in general, legacy tech and the technical debt associated with it, and how that's created opportunities. 'Cause I think that's a topic that maybe, like, you and I kind of understand, but maybe most of our listeners don't get maybe what technical debt is. Maybe we can start there, and then talk about how you see it impacting, um, the industry as a whole. Yeah, definitely.

I mean, it's, it's a super interesting topic, and, um, I'm looking forward to listening to, to Margo's episode. She's awesome. Yeah, she is. Yeah. Um, but yeah.

I mean, it's interesting as, you know, for, for my company, National Insurance Inspection Services, and, you know, we're a, a, you know, decades old, you know, started as a family-owned business. Um, and, uh, you know, built on... I mean, w- we started doing these property field inspections for underwriting, right? Back on, you know, notepads and Polaroid cameras, right? Like, that was the- Yeah ... the genesis of our company back in the day, right?

And so, um, and so we, you know, have had this transition, you know, slowly over time. And, like, you know, when we moved to, you know, inspectors having digital cameras, like, that was mind-blowing, right? Like, to, to move from Polaroid photos in the mail getting sent to carriers- Yeah ... and now to have a digital workflow like that, you know, was just cutting edge, right? And then fast-forward and it's like, okay, now instead of using digital cameras, now our inspectors have a mobile app that they can use, right? And now they're all taking photos with their phones, right?

And, um, so like, there, there's all of that. But then for our company, uh, no company's immune to this, right? Like, as technology evolves, like, if you're not evolving as a business, like, you're gonna develop technical debt, right? And I think- Yeah ... literally every company has some. And- And just for the audience- I, I think it's- I'm trying to run...

Just for the audience who may not understand, exactly what is technical debt, so that they can kinda have an understanding of what that means. Yeah, I mean, I'll take my best shot at it, and you might- Yeah, yeah ... have a better answer than I would, right? Mm. But essentially, you know, as, as technology advances, and as you, you know, need and want your business to evolve along with that and take advantage of new technology so that you, uh, you know, ultimately at the end of the day hopefully can be more profitable, right? Drive efficiency and all of those types of things.

Um, but, you know, as that technology advances, if you're, if, if you're not m- moving along, moving your business along that pipeline of technology advancements, and you're just relying on, you know, infrastructure systems, and it doesn't matter whether that's hardware or software or whatever the case may be. Yeah, yeah. In some sense, it's even just business processes, right? Um, that are enabled by technology. That literally becomes, becomes debt, you know?

Yeah. And that is going to hold your company back. It's gonna hold you back from reaching the milestones of profit- profitability that you, you know, would have been able to reach had you not gone ahead and say, "Look, we haven't upgraded our systems in a decade, and, uh, this is absolutely holding us back." And, and ultimately, I mean, that's, that technical debt kills businesses every day. Yeah.

You know what I mean? It is just- Yeah. You know, and it can be perpetuated just by a, a kind of an old school mentality, right? And, and, and I think the, you know, it's the old cliche, right? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

And sometime, like, that can be a big hurdle for people, you know? Yeah. B- because that, that cliche basically drives more technical debt, right? Yep. Um, because the reality is nothing is gonna work forever.

And especially, you know, today as, as the, you know, the, the speed of technology and advancement is just, you know, m- the momentum is growing every single day, right? And things are changing so quickly, um, you know, that if it ain't broke, don't fix it mentality, y- you're gonna die. You're just not gonna survive, right? Yeah. Um, because there, there are absolutely going to be competitors in your space that come in and do not have any of that technical debt holding them back, and they're gonna get catapulted, you know, ahead of you.

So, um- Yeah, it's funny- Anyway, that's a long, drawn out... But- No, I think it's a perfect, it's a perfect way to describe it. It's, it's, uh, with each year removed from when y- you built your system, there's almost, like, a, it's not a linear scale on how much it's gonna cost to upgrade that system. It actually, it's like a logarithmic scale almost. Like, maybe the first couple years if you were to update it, no big deal.

But you get too far removed from the newest technology, and now that upgrade costs exponentially more. And I actually heard this described one time, not the technical debt part, but the decision to upgrade, uh, an antiquated system. I, I can't remember. It was some entrepreneur forum I was watching on YouTube or whatever. And, and I can't remember who the guy was, so I'm gonna, I, I'm not even gonna try.

But he basically referred to this as when to kill the golden goose, is kinda paraphrasing what he said, is like, he's like, "As a CEO of a mature company, one of the hardest decisions to make is how or when do you kill your golden goose?" And what he was referring to this kind of thing. Like, if you have this system that's 20 years old that is almost impossible to upgrade- But man, there's still people using it, and you're making money. But you also know, like, at some point, those people are gonna leave, and you're not gonna be able to provide them with a product that is up to today's standards. Like, how do you make that decision?

What do you do there? And, and he, and he didn't necessarily have an answer. It was mostly just like, "This is a question every CEO of a mature company has to ask, or answer," sorry. And, you know, he was like, "How you answer it could determine success, failure. You know, you, you turn the page and become a whole new company and it's amazing, or you crash that plane right into the side of the mountain."

So it's a really, it is something that I think a lot of people... And I, and I just wanted to spend some time here just because I feel like we do give, you know, s- specifically Applied and Vertafore get yelled at a lot, right? And, and I'm- Sure. Yeah ... as guilty of that as anybody else. At the same time, I am appreciative of the, the true struggle that they have with their own internal technical debt, and the fact that they have golden geese that, that pay their bills that still, that companies still operate on.

And it is a very tough decision on what to do. And, uh, I think it doesn't always make a lack of innovation... It doesn't excuse a lack of innovation, but it is a real legitimate business problem that they're dealing with every day, I think is, is something that at least needs to be said to be fair to them. Yeah, no, absolutely. I, I, I, I couldn't agree more.

And I do think that progress is always being made, right? There are always innovators. There are always people that are, you know, trying to push, push that along. And I think especially on, you know, on the carrier side, you know, I mean, we've worked with some amazing innovation teams, you know, over the last three, four years, you know, that are, that are doing incredible work. Um, but at the same time, I mean, the, y- you cannot get away from the reality that...

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Let's get back to the episode. Pretty much, uh, I can't say this unequivocally, but you, you know, I, I, I think it's fairly accurate to say that certainly the top 10 P&C carriers in the country, like, the core of these businesses are still running on old AS400, you know. I mean, they still- Yeah ... have server rooms that are, you know, the size of both of our houses combined. A full cloud migration, like, it's just, it's mind-boggling. And, you know, uh, uh, I think that...

So, like, I get it. I understand the struggle there. And I also think, and, and something that we've seen and experienced a lot as well, is there's so much danger in those migrations, you know, and those innovations- Yeah, yeah ... right? Because, I mean, w- uh, you know, we've all heard the horror stories, right- Yeah ... of trying to move onto, you know, a new policy management system or whatever. And, you know, I mean, millions of dollars, sometimes tens of millions of dollars get spent in a five or six-year migration, and it literally never...

Like, they never get to the end goal, you know what I mean? Yes. It just becomes a huge money pit, and, like, they just couldn't actually get it over the finish line. And, like- Yeah ... there's a very real risk of that happening, you know? So- Yeah, yeah ... that can certainly understandably perpetuate that mindset of, to your point, "Hey, you know, things are running," right?

Like, "We're writing business. We're making money. Um, although, you know, today and this year, maybe we're not making money." But- Yes ... you know what I mean? Like, the, the wheels aren't falling off.

We're not crashing and burning today, and, you know, we, we don't necessarily see that happening tomorrow. So there's, there's just, there's a lot of hesitancy, you know, there to, to make those tough decisions. So for your business particularly, what other pressures do you see coming from carriers? What other things are you hearing, like, like when, when you're, when you're talking to a client or a customer and, and they're walking through the things that are important to them, like, uh, what, what's on their brain? Like, I, I love getting perspectives.

You know, so m- so often, you know, just 'cause it's where my area of expertise is, we talk through the framework of the agency space. But I'm really interested always in the challenges, the frustrations, the, the, the things that people are excited about that, that aren't necessarily that vantage point. So when you're sitting there and you're like, "This is gonna be a big change," or, "Man, maybe everyone doesn't see this problem coming," what are some things that are, like, high on your mind? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's so interesting because, you know, the, the, the, the industry is just, it's so fluid. Like, things change so quickly, and there are so many different factors, right?

Like, I mean, insurance is complex. Mm-hmm. The ecosystem sometimes feels hopelessly complex, right? And I certainly, um, you know, am no expert. I quite frankly have a pretty narrow, you know, scope of expertise in the industry at large.

But, um- You know, but I am absolutely fascinated by, you know, this current hard market cycle that we are in, um, and how that's gonna play out because, a- and I have these conversations with a lot of our, you know, carrier partners, um, you know, that n- nobody knows how this cycle is gonna play out, but I think everybody agrees that this one is different than anything that we faced in the past because we have this confluence of factors, you know, all coming at us at the same time that we've, we've never had, you know, in this specific combination before. And I mean, you can tie that back into, you know, COVID or whatever, right? Like, it's like the, you know, the, the word of the day continues to be unprecedented and, you know, we- Yeah ... I think the industry as a whole is, is in uncharted waters, right? And we don't really know, um, we don't really know where it's gonna go from here.

So, uh, you know, w- but with, with that in mind, um, you know, I, I think w- with our clients and folks that we're working with o- on the innovation side, and again, we're, we, we are strictly, you know, kind of in this little, little niche of the, the under, you know, underwriting for, for property and casualty and, um, and even more specifically than that, you know, just residential homeowner stuff, right? Yeah. Like, that's what my company is, is laser focused on. Like, that's, that's where our expertise lies and I try not to get, um, you know, to, to chase every opportunity that comes our way, right? I wanna be master of one.

So no commercial property? No commercial property. Yeah, we're not doing anything with commercial stuff right now. Um, and maybe we will at some point in the future. Um, but a- again, we're, we're, we're mastering what we're best at right now.

So. Yep. Um, uh, you know, so but, but from that perspective, I think with that kind of uncertainty of how things are going to go, um, you know, moving forward, I, I know that, you know, carriers are absolutely, uh, you know, looking for options and opportunities, uh, that are going to move the needle for them, you know, meaningfully. And because again, any, you know, any improvement that can come is gonna, is going... Regardless of, of, of how things evolve in, in the next few years, um, you know, any improvement is better than no improvement, right?

Yeah. And I think everybody realizes that, hey, the status quo is, is, is not good enough anymore, right? And so, you know, especially when you look at some of these, you know, really tough markets, you know, like, like California, you know, West Coast, all the wildfire issues, um, you know, all of the coastal stuff as well. I, I, I think that a growing number of people understand the fragility maybe, you know, kind of, of, of these markets and, uh, you know, knock on wood, but, you know, thankfully we kind of made it through this year with the wildfire severity this year was super low. Yeah.

We did not have- Especially versus last year, right? I mean, wasn't last year like where it was like the- Yep ... California's on fire the entire, entire year? Yep, absolutely. And I mean, and, and even thinking back from that, I mean, you know, 2017 was really kind of the turning point, like the, the come to Jesus moment, you know, with, with wildfire.

And then, uh, but again, you know, and this year we, we kinda dodged the bullet with Atlantic hurricane season, right? Yeah. And we didn't have, you know, any of these, you know, major multi-hundred billion dollar cat events, right? Um, but I think everyone understands and, you know, like if you look at the, the Florida market specifically and, you know, all of the issues and the madness that's going on there. Yeah.

Um, I think that people understand that, you know, we, we really are kind of in a fragile place where if sometime in the next handful of years, you know, we end up having a, a bad year, you know, if we had a 2017 wildfire year and, you know, and then, you know, a two or three major cat event, you know, coastal exposure year, like, like that could blow things up in a, in a way that no one has ever... Like, we're just not prepared for that, you know? So, so you, so, so we're that close. You know, it's interesting. So I think that's a really interesting perspective and I, and I, I would love for you to just, just maybe expand a little bit on that because I don't think most of the people who listen to this show, myself included, um, I don't think most people are aware of that.

Like, that, that... Or, or have spent the time to think about it. Maybe if they really sit down they could rationalize it. But the idea that our industry could be that close to, to, to, like true, like the world's on fire, we don't know how to pay things, you know, large carriers going out of business, M&A activity, you know, bailouts, like that we could be that close to that, most people are probably don't have their head wrapped around that idea. So if you could just, you know, any insights that you have there that you can expand upon I think would be really interesting because, um, I don't know that I've spent any time thinking about that.

Like, geez, what would happen if we had, you know, you know, Mississippi Delta flooding, some, some, some, some, uh, wildfires going on in California and all of a sudden a, a hurricane smashes into South Carolina, w- w- what happens? You know what I mean? Like, like how does that, h- you know, are we able to sustain that? Who... You know what I mean?

That kind of thing. Yeah, no, absolutely. And, and then on top of that, I mean, the, you know, the huge surprise this year was the, you know, they call it SCS they're being referred to, right? Severe convective storms, right? And I mean, through the Midwest, you know, tho- we had, you know, multiple billion dollar plus SCS events that, you know, are, are not necessarily, you know, categorized as cat events, but like collectively those added up this year, you know, to, to, um, I don't remember, I looked at the, the figure the other day.

I mean, it's over $100 billion, you know, this year of losses, you know, from these tornadoes and whatnot, you know? So. Yeah. Um, a- and that's, that's unprecedented. Like, we've never seen that, right?

So, um, you know, I think between those- Matt, can I ask you one question? Yeah. I c- I'm sorry to keep interrupting you. We keep saying things- No, no. I'll give- ... that I'm, like, interested in, so I apologize.

Um, so an SCS, I, I had never heard that term, severe connected storm. Con- This would be something like a- Yeah, convective ... a convective storm, sorry. This would be something like a, like a, like a swath of tornadoes touching down, p- okay All right. So when you say, um, you know, we, we saw 100 billion in losses from that, and that that's kind of an unprecedented number, is that have to do with... And this is s- just something I'm interested in in general.

Is that have to do with the number of storms and the power of the storms, or, or is it some combination of that and the fact that just everything seems to cost more today? Like, what is the percentage of kind of w- why it's that high, if that makes sense? Yeah, no, it absolutely does. And, uh, you know, the, the simple answer is all of the above, right? Gotcha.

Yeah. Like, the, the, the number of storms and the severity of those storms, um, was act- you know, significantly higher this year than we've ever seen before. But then also, you know, that's combined with, you know, this, this explosion of, of loss costs, you know, because of inflation and all of this, you know, all of these things that are going on. Um, you know, so all of... It's like a per- you know, it's the perfect storm, right?

Yeah. It just, it truly is in every way. So, um, anyway, yeah, I, I guess, you know... And, and I don't, you know, I, I don't like to be the, the doom and gloom type person, right? Yeah.

But at the same time, I think we have to face reality, you know? We, uh, you know, sticking your head in the sand is not going to, um, you know, is not gonna help. A- and at the same time, none of us have a, has a crystal ball, right? We don't know what- Yeah ... the future is going to bring. However, you know, when, when you look at just the past decade, you know, and you look back at 2017, you know, and you see the wildfire season that happened in California and how devastating that was, not just with property, but loss of life.

Um, you know, and then you look at some of the worst hurricane years that we've had, you know, with coastal exposure, and then this year with these severe convective storms like we've never had before. Um, and again, I'm, I'm just looking, you know, subjectively and saying, look, you know, if we had, you know, 2017 and, say, 2021, and then, you know, 2023 with those three specific, you know, perils and, and cat events, and you put those all together in the same year, uh, you know, that, that would be catastrophic for, uh, you know, for a lot of, um, you know, regionals. And, and I'm not saying that, you know, top 10 carriers- Yeah ... are just gonna, you know, fold overnight. I certainly don't think that that would be the scenario, but it is going to have a massive impact that, that trickles down and impacts everyone, right? Yeah.

And like, you know, y- you don't have to do much research at all on the Florida market now to understand what a mess that is. Um, you know, and, and, and policyholders... A- and same thing in California. Um, you know, but if, if you're in these high-risk places, you know, people are... It's, it's just become completely unaffordable, right?

Yeah. People can't afford insurance. It's more than their mortgage payment, right? And they're seeing, you know, premiums increase by, you know, 50, 60, 70, 80, sometimes 100-plus percent, you know, year over year. And, and sometimes that can sound like hyperbole, but it's not.

Like, that's the reality- Yeah ... for a lot of people, right? Yeah, yeah. Like, their insurance costs more than their mortgage, right? And, you know, the average person, that, they, they can't do that, right? It's not sustainable.

Yeah. And that's why, you know, in Florida specifically now, the last figure that I saw was over 20% of people who, you know, don't have a mortgage that requires insurance, they're just foregoing it altogether, right? They're, they're going bare, right? No homeowners insurance. Um, and, you know, that's everyone's individual decision to make, but that is- Yeah ... uh, you know, that's, that's terrifying.

That's not good for, that's not good for anyone. I wonder, are they also going without liability? Can you get a liability-only policy on a, on a homeowners...? Like, I don't... I've never heard of that, but, like, you know, 'cause I could see, like...

I mean, honestly, with some of the premiums that I've heard, you know, which I've absolutely heard all these stories too, and I got friends down there who are agents, and it's just, it's a b- bedlam. Yeah. Uh, you know, you're 100% right. And, uh, y- you know, uh, it, it's interesting to think, like, is there... Would I go...

If I knew I kinda had a hurricane roof, uh, home, you know, whatever, and up to date, uh, would I go drop the property and just carry the liability in case that happened? And you probably cut your prem... I mean, I'm assuming most of the, most of the loss comes from the property, not, not the liability on these places. You know, I don't know that there's a- Right ... drastically increased liability exposure in Florida. It's the, it's all the property stuff.

So I wonder- Yeah ... if that, that's a product that, that comes out, if the industry will adapt and morph to, to make money off these people who don't have property. Um, maybe I just threw out a new idea. If there's any carrier people listening- ... there's an opportunity for you. Liability-only homeowners in Florida. I mean, it's, uh, we laugh.

It's sad that, you know, that we would end up in a scenario like that, but, um, but yeah, who knows? I mean, it's... It could definitely be a thing. You might be onto something there. Well, I think, I think what's important on this topic is that the insurance carriers don't have infinite money, right?

And that all these factors do play a role in what we do. And I think, you know, especially where you sit, it, you have kind of a unique perspective in that you're, you're, you're the ones out there looking at these properties, and coming back, and understanding how the valuations increase and change. And I, I remember, like, back when I first started writing insurance, I mean, this is 18 years ago, but, like, we would just do, like, $142 times the square feet, and, like, that's how much, you know, we'd put on there. Yeah. Now with the way the homes are, and, and, and, oh, some of this is the technology in the homes, et cetera, and, you know- Yeah ... it's just, I don't know, it's just completely different.

Like, you, you, you need to do this type of deep analysis to understand what it would cost to replace it. Yeah, and I, and I think- Mainly just everything's so expensive. Yeah. No, absolutely. A- and I do think, um, yeah, it has become abundantly clear to me just, even just in the last three years, um, that, you know, unfortunately You know, the, for a lot of carriers, like, the, the chickens are kinda coming home to roost.

Um, and I, you know, I, I post a fair amount about this on LinkedIn, but, uh, you know, the, the fact that there are, to varying degrees, but there are a ton of carriers out there that, um, again, it, I mean, it k- it kind of ties back in a, in a weird sense, there's a parallel to that technical debt, right? Yeah. But if you have, if you have a book of business, you know, with whatever, you know, but hundreds of thousands of, of properties. For some of these larger carriers, millions of properties, right? And literally 80% of that book they have not looked at in, you know, five years, and 50% of it they've not looked at in 10 years.

That is a huge liability for them, right? And I, I, I think that, you know, it, we'd be foolish to think that that fact is not at play. Um, and especially when you look at, um, you know, just the w- the way that the world has evolved and the culture has evolved, you know, the, the ever-increasing litigious society that we're in, right? Yeah. Like, all of that kind of, kind of plays into this.

And quite frankly, you know, macroeconomics as well, right, where people just don't have the money to take care of their homes and properties the way that maybe they used to. And, and obviously inflation plays a big factor in that, right? Mm-hmm. Where it's like, hey, maybe, you know, eight years ago I could have gotten my roof replaced, you know, for seven, eight grand, and now today it's gonna cost 25 grand to get my roof replaced, right? Like, that's just...

You know, people can't- Yeah And so, like, all of these things kind of snowball, right? And they, y- you know, they, they exacerbate each other. And so, um, all of that to say, right, like, you know, when you look at, at 2023, the final numbers aren't out yet. I had posted about it the other day, but, you know, just the first six months of 2023, um, you know, homeowners underwriting losses as a whole were just, like, through the roof, right? Like, nobody's making a profit on the underwriting side, um, you know, on, on the, on the personal lines homeowner side, right?

And, and hu- massive losses, right? And that's, you know, I, I think that's a big part of it, right? Like, it- the longer that you go without getting eyeballs on the risks that you're insuring, there's a t- and we see them every day, and have been posting a, you know, posting glimpses of them. Yeah. Uh, but, like, we literally look at them.

I mean, we're, you know, we're, we're processing 40,000 inspections a month now, um, a- you know, self-inspections and field inspections and, like, so we look at a boatload of properties, and the stuff that we see coming through for carriers that finally are doing more renewal inspections because they understand, holy cow- Yeah ... you know, our losses are piling up based on, you know, all of this old book that we haven't looked at in forever, and we, we have no idea what's going on, right, with, with all of this stuff that's, you know, we haven't looked at in a decade. Um, you know, a- a- but there are, there's interesting aspects, aspects to that as well. You know, even when you think about the, you know, the societal issue, I guess. Maybe that's not the right word, right? But it's like, it's tough.

Like, these are hard problems because, you know, w- for, for instance, so you do a, a renewal inspection project, right? You know? And you're gonna identify a ton of properties that are not a good risk, right? You're gonna identify those homes that, you know, have a roof that is 10 years past its lifespan, right? And, um, and these are just major claims waiting to happen.

And so the, you know, those people are gonna get non-renewed, right? Or they're gonna get a correction letter that says, "Hey, you've gotta replace your roof in the next 60 days or we're not gonna extend your coverage," right? And- Yeah ... that's tough because that puts those consumers in a hard spot, right? Like, and again, as, you know, a- as carriers are becoming more in tune with this and, you know, i- if you've got a roof that is 10 years past its life expectancy and is falling apart, like, nobody's gonna insure you today. Or if they do, you know, it's gonna be a, a stripped down policy and it's gonna cost you- Yeah, it's gonna be like a- ... twice as much as- Yeah.

Like, an HO1 or something. Yep. HO2 at best. Yep. Yeah.

It- Yeah, exactly. I don't- So that, that's tough ... I think the next, you know, if I were, if I were a bold carrier exec right now, um, which I'm not sure that that exists. Uh, but if it, if it were, what I would be doing is spinning up a finance company, uh, on the side and saying, "Hey, you got 60 days to redo your roof. And if you can't pay, we'll help you finance it."

Yeah. That's a fucking- Yeah ... billion-dollar idea right there. This is, this is the second billion-dollar idea. Yes. We've got the liability only policies in Florida.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And now we've got- Just throwing them out there. If I say the word patented, can I get credit for that if it actually happens? Um, I don't know how to create a liability only homeowners policy, but I'll tell you what, the financing home improvements alongside your insurance policy is brilliant.

And since you probably, you probably already have all the correct filings to, to make that a reality, as long as it's a separate company, you could probably spin that up pretty quick if you're an insurance carrier. Yeah. A- and there's, there, there are cool things happening kind of along those lines anyway with... I'm not sure if you're familiar with the, the FORTIFIED program, right, where- Mm-hmm ... um, you know, you can get a FORTIFIED, a, a certified roof, right, that's, that's fortified to, you know, withstand, um, you know, whether it's coastal exposure or, you know, this kind of SCS stuff in the Midwest or whatever. Um, a- you know, and there are a growing number of carriers that, you know, will provide significant premium discounts, right, if you have- Yeah ... you know, a FORTIFIED certified roof that, you know, is, has proper strap-downs and all of this stuff, you know, to withstand these, these larger storms and whatnot.

But, um, you know, so, so there are some incentives there and I, I'm, I'm excited about some of the stuff that's happening in California as well on the wildfire front. Um, you know, again, there's, there's tons of work that needs to be done there, but there are some- Uh, you know, some innovative ideas out there. I think the, the big picture is that, you know, I, I foresee moving forward, um, you know, the industry as a whole, like we need to do a much better job of, of educating, you know, general public, right? Educating the consumer, educating the policyholder. And I, I guess the angle that I'm excited about is when you look at, you know, markets like Florida, other coastal exposures, California with wildfire, people that are in these high-risk areas, right, that are experiencing these insurance issues firsthand, right?

Like, they're feeling the pain. Um, and people are just... They're not, they're not taking insurance coverage for granted anymore, right? Like, it's not- Yeah, yeah ... just an auto- it's not automatic, you know? You don't just have to make a phone call and, you know, have a conversation and write a check and you're good to go, right?

It's way more complicated than that now. Um, and so that, that is beginning to tie in with, you know, this, this concept from the carrier side of the more predict and prevent mentality, right? Yeah. And engaging policyholders in active mitigation, you know, for their home and property, right? Whether that's, again, you know, wildfire is kind of the lowest hanging fruit there and where a lot of activity is focused.

Um, but at the end of the day, I think that's a big part of the answer to the, you know, the, the big picture issues that we're facing, um, is, you know, that people's risk needs to be minimized, right? Carriers need it at, at a macro level. Um, but engaging policyholders in that process and, and educating them on, you know, why this is important. And quite frankly, the tough part about that is it's, like that's a big change, you know? That's a huge change.

It's a huge mindset shift. Um, and, you know, at the consumer level, we need to educate consumers and somehow convince them that, uh, yeah, you may not like this, but, like, the world has changed. Yeah. Things have changed, right? Significantly.

And we're doing... I mean, we, I see this every single day firsthand just with our self-inspection initiatives, right? Like, you know, our company contracts with the carrier and then, you know, guess what? Your, your policyholder's getting a text message and an email from us saying, "Hey, here's an invitation to do your self-inspection," right? Yeah, yeah.

And people are... Uh, we see the feedback on a daily basis. You know, "I've been insured, you know, with XYZ company for 26 years and I've never had to do this," right? Well, yeah, that's absolutely true. Um, you know, you never have, but y- we're not living 26 years ago, you know?

Yeah. We're living in, in today, and we have major problems today, and this is, this is one of those solutions, and it, it takes work from everyone, right? So I think we're moving towards that insurance for the consumer no longer being like this set it and forget it type thing, right? Yeah. Where it's just completely out of sight, out of mind.

And especially on the wildfire front, you know, because effective wildfire mitigation is not a once-a-year thing. You know, when you look at these highest wildfire risk factors like tree debris on your roof and in your gutters, right? Like, and, and, uh, you know, all of these types of things, defensible space, these are very fluid factors, right? Like, you don't just trim back your trees and, and handle defensible space once a year and then you're, you're good, right? Like, all of that stuff grows back.

Um, you know, so those, those risk factors are very fluid and, and we need to get to a point where we're, you know... Uh, again, I think education is the key, right? Yeah. Because it's t- it's tough to, you know, throw these, these things at the consumer and, and they're looking at it as additional work, right? Like, "You're telling me that I have to do this now and I've never had to do it before," right?

Um, that can be a tough pill to swallow, but again, I think that's where the education piece as a whole is, is one of the biggest tasks that we have in front of us. I think you're 100% right. There is an enormous opportunity for an insurance carrier to step out front and lead with education that doesn't also come with a right hook, right? Mm-hmm. You mentioned Gary Vaynerchuk, famous for jab, jab, jab, right hook.

Uh, our industry tends to be right hook, right hook, right hook, maybe a jab, right hook, right hook, right... You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, we can't... I mean, there, you could just do a whole series of PSAs and educational things and segment them.

And the way the internet works now, you could literally create specific, you know, specific pieces of content that are distributed for California homeowners and Florida homeowners. And there are, there are entire veins of educational content that these carriers could invest in and, and think through, and really, I think, define themselves as market leaders in the education space, and they just don't wanna do it. And, and again, that, a lot of that goes back to- Yeah ... you know, that feels... And I, and I've talked to the, I've talked to some carrier people about this before and it's, it's, one, it's culturally not what they're used to, right? Very much our industry has always been, "If you want the information, you have to come to me."

We've been gatekeepers. Uh, and I remember back in 2012 I was telling people, "Guys, we're no longer the gatekeepers of insurance information. Like, it's out there in the world now." You know, and, and it's still, that's still a concept that people have not grabbed onto. Uh, I, I think what you have described is a reality that we don't have to like but is absolutely what the world looks like.

And while it may not be what we're used to, it certainly only creates new opportunities for the people who wanna adjust, adapt, and, and, and grab hold of it. And, and for the insurance agents that are listening to this, particularly those that are in the, the PL space, but also in the commercial property space, like- This are oppor- these are opportunities to, to set yourself apart. For all those, you know, "I'm a trusted advisor" out there, like, this is what being a trusted advisor is. You know, walking through how do you, how do you properly trim your trees back for your home? How do you properly make sure that there's drainage in case there's flooding?

How do you properly insert whatever the thing is? They're rare, and I know some people do this, but it's very, very rare. There, there is so much opportunity in the educational space in our area that, um, if every agent was creating educational content, there still wouldn't be enough. So I think that, um, I love your point. I, I, this has been a tremendous conversation.

Uh, I appreciate what you're doing. I appreciate your perspective. And guys, Curtis is a tremendous follow on LinkedIn. I just looked, and you only have, like, I shouldn't say only, but you have 2,200 followers. That is freaking crazy, 'cause due to sharing awesome information I love, he's one of my favorite ins- one of my favorite follows on LinkedIn.

The memes are just hilarious and, and real and thought-provoking. And, um, I, I highly encourage everybody listening to go and connect with Curtis on LinkedIn. I'll have that in the show notes. Uh, where else can they learn more about it? Or, or if, you know, for the carrier people that are listening, if they don't work with you or just wanna connect with you, you know, like, where's the best place for people to, to learn more about what you do?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, uh, connect on LinkedIn. You know, shoot me a DM. I'm, you know, getting those on the, on the daily now. You know, nationalis.com is, is our website.

Um, and, uh, yeah, I, I love, uh, you know, my, my network is kind of exploding here over the last few months, and it's super fun. I love meeting new people and having conversations like this. Um, there's a ton of, of great people out there that are working on a lot of these problems that we're, you know, that we kinda discussed here today, and I'm excited for the future. Lots of cool stuff happening. Awesome, man.

Well, appreciate you. Wish you nothing but the best, and so glad we had a chance to connect and have you on the show. Yeah. Thanks so much, Ryan. Lots of fun.

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