This VC Bought Bitcoin at $200, Saw TikTok's Rise, and Now Says THIS is the Next Big Trade

Eventually, uh, the models will be very close to each other. Ordinary users can't really tell too much difference between like a Grok and like a DeepSeek or, or ChatGPT. What's gonna be making the huge difference is focusing on the application side. There, there's a, a, an interesting trend. Meta actually just bought a Chinese- Yeah ... uh, company, yeah, for I think it was two, $2 billion.

Two billion, yeah, Manus. Yeah. Manus. Uh, uh, the company, the con- entrepreneur, they, they move out of China because they want their, their application, the AI agent can be used globally because they, they don't want sanctions from the States. They are very strong team.

The point is, is the closed model versus open model compared with Google, Google App Store and, and, uh, Apple App Store, they will coexist. Forget what you know about the future. While everyone is distracted by the latest AI hype and meme coins, the real revolution is happening right under our noses. My guest today, a tech entrepreneur and early crypto adopter, is here to explain why the next wave of disruption isn't coming from where you expect. We're talking about the quiet giant that's about to tokenize the world.

If you wanna know where the smart money is really going, you're in the right place. Welcome to Finding Peak. This is the way. Let's go through your journey. Like we...

You started a little bit in the, in the green room and I, and I cut you off because it was so good, but, uh- Yeah ... you have a very unique kind of origin story and, uh, although, you know, I usually don't start with origin stories 'cause, you know, I think people hear a lot of the same stuff. Yours is so unique, I think it's really important to hear. So, uh, maybe take us all the way back to, to your father's an entrepreneur, you're growing up in China. Like, what was that like? I mean, my audience is predominantly US and I know for a lot of people in the US, China could essentially be another planet.

And I don't mean that in a bad way, it's just so far away and I think, uh, and I, you know, being... Having spoken to as many people as I have, and this show provides me a lot of opportunity to reach out of the States and understand what's going on beyond, um, I don't think as many people do, and I would love for you to explain a little bit like what does it mean growing up in China, having experienced both the Eastern world and the Western world? You know, what are some of the differences and, you know, and just, just start to walk us through that process 'cause it is such a unique journey to getting to where you are today. Yes, it is. Yeah.

Uh, yes, let's get started. Um, I was grow up, uh, in Tianjin, China. It's, it's a very big city. It has like 13 million populations, uh, right now. Like, uh, I think, I think in- including populations actually temporarily working there is like tw- 20 million plus.

And I grew up, uh, there, uh, very early in the '80s. Uh, uh, I was born in the '80s. Um, my, uh, grow- growing up in a very, uh, traditional Chinese family. Uh, my father, uh, is... used to work for the government and he then later on he started his own business in the '90s, and he has been one of the role models for me. So because, uh, that's, that's why since my...

I, I had very strong goals when I grew up. I, I just want to become someday, uh, someone like my father. He's my role model. Uh, and, and when I was young, I was really, uh, interested in computer games and, and, and so I, I, I had a, uh, a goal when I grew up I want to be a computer programmer. I can, uh, develop my own games.

Uh, then I decided after my high school, um, I decided to, to go study abroad. Uh, at that time, my, my English wasn't good, so I, I studied really hard. I got admitted to one of the universities in Canada. So in 2001, uh, I went abroad, uh, studied Canada alone, a- and then that, that's where I started learn English, speak English, and, and at the same time I was studying in, in, in computer programming as well. Uh, after graduation, um, I was working for, uh, one of the internet companies in Canada and, and, and during that time I was taking care of operations, um, and, and daily developments of some of the, uh, the tools we use for business.

Uh, but also w- s- because I was grown up in China is... I, I, I, I lived in Canada, I studied there. I started realize there, there are actually, uh, greater opportunities. Like I started to invest using some of my, uh, uh, my income or some of the savings I saved from my commissions to invest in Google's, uh, Google shares and Apple shares. That's in the early 2000.

Then with that kind of interest, I started getting very interested to more educations on the business side, so I decided to, to, to apply for one of the top business schools, uh, uh, INSEAD in, in France. I was lucky enough to get in and, and after, uh, studying for, uh, one year full-time in France, Fontainebleau, France, uh, I graduated with, uh, MBA degree. Uh, and then at that time it was booming in China. It was 2012. Uh, I saw there's, there's bunch opportunities back in China because I learned all this knowledge, uh, from both on the technical side and the business side.

I think there's a great opportunity for me to go back to China, uh, and, and start, uh, to, to actually be part of the, the, these booming opportunities back in China. Uh, I just, I went back... Actually, I got in, uh, joined one of the top, uh, local venture capital firms in China, uh, in 2013, where I invest in mobile app companies, uh, uh, startups in China. Uh, I was based in Beijing. Uh, I looked around projects.

Uh, I, I think over the years I looked into like 100s projects, uh, across the, like the, uh, all these Chinese major cities, Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou, Shenzhen. Um, then I, I... At the same time, actually, it was very, very interesting. Uh, uh, my friends, uh, was looking into blockchain and, and they look at Bitcoin and everything. So I was in those investors groups with them.

I started learning, uh, to, uh, um, uh, into blockchains. Then in 2013, that's the first time actually I invest in blockchain. Uh, uh, B- BTC, Bitcoin at, uh, uh, $200, I remember. And, and then, uh, that was one of the times we, we really, um, uh, we couldn't really find too much information. At the time I was really, uh, still just at the early stage, um, uh, understanding blockchain.

Uh, but over the times we, we l- we, we studied together, we realized this is really the next big thing. Um, as a, a, a VC investor as well, I looked into many of the pro... uh, the platforms at the time. I think, uh, one of the biggest ones at the time was Huobi.com, btcchina.com, and, and even OKCoin. It's, it's OKX today. Like, that's...

Their, their founding, uh, members was actually forming the company in 2013, 2014 back in Beijing. Uh, and that's when I, I looked into those projects as a venture capital side. Uh, I looked into them. Um, so from that time I learned, uh, for, for, for certain things you have to get in early, and, and you need to study them, you need to believe them, believe them, because I made my mistakes over the times. When I was first in- investing in Google and Apple shares, I sold them too early, uh, because I didn't understand, uh, like the business can grow or, or, or...

At the time I didn't have too much knowledge on the financial sides, and that's why I decided to went to, to business school. Uh, at... Also for, for Bitcoin, I bought two, 200. I sold them like 300, 400, and, and I, I wanted to wait until they come down and buy it back, uh, and then they never come down. And, and the reason why is just be- because we didn't really research deep enough and understand what's really... the technology side, what's really, uh, um, actually make a difference.

So, so make you believe that you can hold onto it for, for a longer time. So, so then, um, after that, um, around, uh, the COVID time, uh, because, you know, like at the, at the end of the COVID time, like the Chinese has the, the government has a big lockdown in Shanghai and in Beijing. And, and in 2021, '22, um, then I, I was lucky enough to join another venture capital firm in Singapore, where actually I, I, I invested more, uh, on, um, Web3 projects rather than just mobile app projects. Uh, and then that's when I had the idea, uh, to start, uh, uh, the, the current projects with LabX Exchange. Uh, because, uh, me as a trader during the time, I, I trade lots of, uh, coins, uh, crypto coins as well.

I also, I trade lots of stocks. And also I look at, like on the VC side, I looked at lots of projects over the times, so I know where the traders or, or the users really look for a, a trading platform. And, and, and I ha- I had the, I had the technology knowledge and I have VC resources, so I was able to actually form a very strong team. Um, our tech team has very strong background building trading platforms for, for the, uh, investment banks, the, the... one of the bigger banks. So, uh, so our team is really focused on the tech side, uh, and my goal was building a platform really deliver the traders experience a- and make them feel, uh, the, the platform really put them at the center stage where we can provide them the tools they can, they can succeed.

So, so that's how I came along, uh, to, to became the co-founder and CEO of LabX from my journey. You know, there's many failures and, and, uh, many experience, like even on the personal side. I'm a father of two daughters. I, I got divorced as well. A- and I, I had this personal up and downs.

At the same time, I was able to focus more on the, on the business side, on the work, so I can deliver the projects and deliver the, the user experience to our users. And I think in the long run, uh, there's lots of things to come and, and, and, and, and I think that's, that's how, how it is right now. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

I mean, and I appreciate you going through all that. There's a, there's a lot to unpack. Yeah. I got a lot of questions for you. So- Yeah, of course.

Of course. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm gonna go back and my- I'd love to start- Sorry, uh, it's just in, in Dubai it's a little bit hot here, so Yeah, no, you're, you're good, you're good. Yeah.

Yep. Yep. So I'd love for you to maybe compare and contrast for us, like when you look at, say, entrepreneurship in Canada and France and, and kind of the Western world versus compared to like to China, and, and is there a difference in how entrepreneur, uh, ship is approached? Like here, you know, I know in the States, especially since the rise of say Facebook, Google, Apple, et cetera, you know, people wear entrepreneurship like a badge of honor, right? They get it tattooed on their body.

I'm a, I'm... Everybody wants to be an entrepreneur, and there's like this whole culture to it. And, uh, you know, the... There's like failure porn now where people are failing and then they're, they're using that to launch careers, and it, it's all now, it's been very com- like entrepreneurship is very commercialized. Do you see the same things coming out of China?

Is it a more mature entrepreneurial market? Is it a, still a developing entrepreneur market? Like where do you see the major differences in entrepreneurship in general between the two? I think, uh, be- before, let's say, let's go back to early 2000, uh, I think 2000, maybe after 2001, 2002. Chinese, especially on the tech side, they, they start to, to have like these smaller tech companies.

I remember back there, there's like, uh, china.com, uh, netease.com, uh, Alibaba, they all started very, I think late '90s, early 2000. That's the time, um, I think the entrepreneur is my, uh, uh, previous generation. Like, uh, they are more traditional, and they didn't really have too much college education. Uh, but they are very, uh, dedicated, uh, very diligent, very determined. So if they, they, they work really hard, like I would say.

So, so they, they set their goals, uh, they work everything out of themselves to trying to accomplish it. And that's when the time... That's one time like the, the entrepreneurship is like. It's people just hardworking. Um, it's just doing the daily routines and, and, and, and then, then they, then they gather the experience from maybe some failures.

So they, they, they evolve onto that, like based on that. And, and at that time, I think China didn't really have too much, uh, like technology base to, to build on, and then they relied more on the foreign investment. I think that's when the times, uh, the US, the Europeans has actually invest lots of, uh, uh, like investment and, and technology back into the China. Uh, I think even Taiwan, es- especially for the semiconductor industry and, and, and, and Chi- uh, Taiwan, Jap- Japan and, and Korea during that time had they invest a lot in China to help to develop the technology. Then, then that's the fir- I would say that's, uh, I would say it's like the first generation of entrepreneurs in China.

It start from... Basically, they start most of them from scratch, right? So it didn't have too much base to build on. But after, I think after 2008, especially after the, uh, financial crisis, also after the, the 2008's, uh, Olympics, right? So, so Beijing Olympics.

The Western world understand more about China and even, uh, I think the, the general living standards in, in, in, in China has grown up, like grow very, uh, rapidly after that. So the, the second generation from the first, like the, there's people has been, uh, uh, becoming, uh, uh, richer, uh, by doing business themselves. The first generation has generated wealth, so they have their second generation, uh, has better education, and most of them actually went abroad and learned from like the Western world and see how they do business, how they do entrepreneur and had the knowledge. And then when they, those, those generation has started to, to actually build their own business or start get into entrepreneurship, and I think that's when the second wave actually came. I think it's the early...

That's when actually I went back is 2000, after 2010. I think the Chinese, especially the VC industry and the, and the internet industry, actually has seen a, a tremendous, tremendous growth after 2010, especially 2015 to 2000, right before the COVID. And that's when you see, uh, Tencent, Alibaba, uh, and this big giant came out. And as also the smaller ones because, uh, uh, people had experience working for the big companies start to build their own business as well. And you see, uh, uh, softwares like mobile apps like, uh, Didi.

We have the, the Chinese version of Uber, it's called Didi. Uh, and also there's, um, uh, Meituan, like the, the delivery service of Chi- like the, the, the, the apps in China because the Chinese population is very, uh, in very, uh, the density is very high. So the delivery, uh, has been very, uh, growing really fast. A- a- a- and, uh, also because the Chinese has a bigger market, uh, entrepreneurship is kind of, um, it's, it's, uh, works differently than, than the Western world in the, in the ways that because, because the market is big enough and you can, um, have, uh, you would say like if you have idea, you have, um, a quick, uh, a technology base you can quickly develop for your product Even it's like a 60%, 70% complete. And to actually prove your ideas, you can always go to the market and let the market do a stress test on your products.

And you can iterate after, after that. If you see some failures, you can gain from the feedbacks from the users. It's the feedbacks and, and the cycle is very quick. Uh, it's not like the, uh, mm, the States, for example, in Canada, like the, you don't have too much market you can test be- because it costs you too much to, to actually to, to do marketing on, on that, uh, like na- na- nationwide. So you can...

In China it's different. You can-- You got small market, like when in one city you get 10, 10 million population, and you, you can easily get like a million users. And, and you know you can get quickly feedback, uh, from the products you roll out. So that's, that's different ways, uh, to we, we... I see it, uh, for the entrepreneur side.

Uh, uh- Yeah. That's really interesting. I hadn't thought about- Yeah ... the market size being such an advantage. I mean, essentially two larger Chinese cities is bigger than the entire country of Canada. Uh- Yeah.

Yeah ... and Canada is just barely bigger than the state of California, and then we think of the US market as being large at what, 360 million, but that's a third of, uh, or less than a third of, of the overall Chinese market. Um, that's really interesting. And I'm assuming, 'cause I know the US- Mm-hmm ... has the, the highest, uh, like paid ad rates, like CPMs are, are often the highest in the US. So even though the market's not as big as China, you're also paying much higher CPMs if you're trying to, you know, test ideas or run ads into a market to, to, to try to do- Yeah ... some product testing. So, so basically what you're saying there is- Exactly ... that market size and the dynamic of it allows you to push products out and get a f- get feedback at a large scale very rapidly to understand like, do we have something here or, or do we need to iterate or is this just a complete miss?

Yeah. And I think that just one, uh, o- one example is TikTok, right? Because TikTok started in, in China. It's, it's ByteDance. It's the Chinese version.

Uh, it's called Douyin i- in China. They, they started... Actually, I, I had a chance as a VC, uh, investor, I had the chance to ear- invest in the early stage of the, the TikTok mother company back in China. It's, that was 2013, uh, when I actually first joined the firm. I, I looked into their project.

They started, uh, as like a, a, a news, uh, app. So they, they basically, they, they post different kind of news, uh, on their apps, and people seeing it. A- and they use the algorithm, basically call it algorithm. At the time, they developed a, a database. Because people look at different news, they, they mark their interest on those news.

They, they actually put tags, right? So at the back end, the algorithm will put tags on all this news people looked at and start pushing for, for their, like, uh, what they are interested. So, so, so in that way, people, like, always sees what they interested, so really, they really like the app. So that's, that's because over the times, bit, um, uh, like, uh, TikTok actually, they built up their algorithm because there are so many people using it that they start building the big database. Imagine if they, they, they started up the, the, like, the, the startup in Canada.

They don't have enough samples, right? They don't have enough users to help them to build the user base. A- and, and that's, that's actually, uh, I would say at that time, it's definitely a t- a, a advantage because they have enough user base to can test out ideas and improve the products, improve the algorithm. Then, then once they have that advantage, uh, they, they went globalized, right? So they, they start up TikTok and, and went viral quickly because they, they already had all this, uh, database algorithm they built up from the local Chinese market.

They just applied it globally. A- and I think similar stories for, for AIs. I think the, the US and, and China, they're, they're racing for AIs, uh, very, very, uh, competitively. But I think, you know... Uh, I'm not sure if you know DeepSeek.

It, it's, it's also, it's, it's a AI model. It, it's back in China. But DeepSeek actually, uh, they have their advantage because they, they, they had more, I would say, like local Chinese market data, right? So, so that's, that's something, it's really important. And even Tesla, uh, they, they, they, they want to have their, like a, like auto-drive, uh, tested in China, and, and then they, they treat Chinese markets as one of the most important market, uh, in, in globally because they, they have...

Uh, in China, you would have, um, a s- a s- like a thousand more, like road, uh, accident or condition cases than, than the States, right? Because the States is all straight roads, highways. In China, you got this small road in nowhere and the village roads and, and, and then, then, then Tesla, the, the AIs can learn all these different kind of driving conditions, and it will help to improve their, their, their user case e- eventually. I, I think i- i- I think that's the reason why right now, uh, there, there is a certain advantage i- in China in the AI competition. Uh, but they're lacking of the chips because the US actually, uh, blocked the chips imp- exports to, to China.

Uh, and eventually... But that's gonna backfire because y- you are forcing the Chinese government to invest more to build their own chips. So- Yeah. Yeah. Th- actually, there was a really good...

I don't know if you listen to the All-In podcast- Yeah ... with, uh, Chamath Palihapitiya and David Sacks and those guys. Um, if you don't, it's okay. Yeah. But, uh- Yeah. Yeah, yeah ... it's, it's one of the larger entrepreneur podcasts out there, and they were just having this discussion, this exact discussion- Mm ... around the merits of Denying the Chinese market, um, the Nvidia chips that...

And, and the, and the Tesla chips, et cetera, the- these advanced chips Yeah And, and the, the argument that was being made is that, uh, while, while everyone on the call could see the kind of defense argument to it from a very short term maybe scarcity or narrow view, at the same time, they're like, "Look, like, like all this tension between, you know, China and Taiwan and the State, like this could all be solved if, you know, we could figure out a way to sell these chips in." And, you know, this was... I think it was David Sachs. His argument was essentially, "Well, wouldn't we rather sell China our chips, know what they have, and reap the benefit of selling them the chips," versus creating, one, this kind of self-imposed friction that doesn't necessarily need to be there, and two, all Chinese entrepreneurs are gonna do, as you're describing, is eventually- Yeah ... develop their own chips. And I think as we've seen, you know, one of the things I...

And I follow DeepSeek, uh, uh, pretty closely 'cause I'm really interested in the fact that it's also an open source model. Mm. Uh, and you know, they just came out with... And I'm gonna butcher some of the technicalities to it. I was reading about it.

I'm, uh, uh, I'm not necessarily, uh, I'm not trained in any kind of programming stuff, so I understand the usage and the ideas, but I, I couldn't make my fingers make the magic box do the things. But, you know, this new model they just came out with has essentially created an entirely new framework for how to set certain boundaries and how to, uh, compartmentalize research so it's not getting lost in context, in larger, in larger prompts, et cetera. And it's, and it's... You know, you see this. You know, DeepSeek will move ahead and some of the open source Chinese models will take a step ahead, and then you see OpenAI.

But I do think it feels to me, and, and I'm interested as, as a technologist yourself what, what your take is on this. To... Like you look at, you look at, say, WordPress, right? WordPress. Mm.

Open source website. Yeah. So now we're talking- Yeah ... like early 2000s, 2000, 2010 is really when... WordPress separated itself so quickly and so rapidly became the most widespread platform because it was open source, right? And at that time, you know, I was...

Marketing and sales has always been my side of the house, right? At that time, the argument was, "Well, they're open source," so it's kinda like it got labeled as like amateurish or somehow like the code wasn't as good. And what was really interesting, and I think this is what we're gonna eventually see with open source models versus these closed models, uh, with AI, is WordPress won because so many programmers were able to get their hands on it and play with it and fix it, and they don't want their stuff getting hacked, so the entire argument of it not being as secure went out the window really fast and, and that, you know, WordPress continued to ascend and, you know, take over the, the, the, the number one platform in the country and, or in the world. And many platforms tried, but I, I truly believe it was the open source nature of WordPress that did that. So do you see something similar happening with open source AI models versus the closed models, like over time?

You know, they'll battle for a while, but open source eventually will win? Or... And, and I'm talking widespread use. I think there'll always be very specific use cases for closed models, but I can see these open source models taking the, the larger everyday user, um- Yeah ... market segment. Well, I think, um, I think we, we, we need to look at two things.

Um, we're talking about models. Models is actually s- the, the computing power or the AI models, right? So, so they have this... They can generate tokens so, so people can... they can, and can query them and apply to things. Uh, but I think eventually it doesn't matter, like if the chips getting blocked from the States or China invents their own chips.

I think it would eventually, uh, the models will be very close to each other, and there's not too much difference. I think, uh, y- y- you can't really... For like... I mean, I mean like for, for, for ordinary users, like you can't really tell too much difference between like a Grok and like a DeepSeek or, or, or, or ChatGPT. It, it...

They, they all do similar things, right? Even, uh, TikTok had their own AI. It's called Doubao as well, right? So, so they, they, they all has kind of a similar, uh, logic behind it. And, and you know, the more ironic about it, like the, m- m- many of the Chinese scientists actually is working for those AI companies, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you look at like, uh, like, uh, the Tesla, like they, they introduce their, their AI, uh, uh, team is many of like Asian faces. But, uh, uh, it's... That's just... It's not very important, I would say.

Like the difference would be very, very minimum, and what's gonna be, uh, making the huge difference, I think, right now is, is focusing on the application side. I think there, there's a, a, an interesting trend. Um, I'm not sure if you, you know, see the news. The Ch- Meta actually just bought a Chinese, uh- Yeah ... company, yeah, for I think it was $2 billion. $2 billion, yeah. Manus.

Yeah. Manus. Uh, uh, the company, the Chinese company, the con- entrepreneur, they, they move out of China because they want their, their application, the AI agent can be used globally because they, they don't want sanctions from the States. Uh, but I think, um, they are very, uh, strong team. They, they, they actually found it like only eight months old, I think.

Yeah. Uh, yeah, uh, uh, if I remember right. So the, the, the point I'm trying to make is that, uh, it's the closed model versus open model, uh, I think eventually it's gonna be... It, it's, it... I would compare with, uh, like a, a Google, Google App Store and, and, and Apple App Store, and they, they will coexist But I think eventually what's gonna be big, uh, difference is the, the applications to be gonna came out, like the, the AI agent to be gonna use.

I think, uh, Tesla is more using their AI, AI, uh, system for, for daily, like a transport or, or, or, or, or robots and, and that kind of things. Uh, uh, DeepSeek is open source, so it's... The, the access, the, the, the barrier to entry to, to u- utilize their model is, is very, uh, low. And, and, and, and ChatGPT on the other side, I think it is currently, I think it's a little bit more advanced and, and has more resources because they got the biggest investment from the, uh, N- NVIDIA and from, uh, SoftBank, all that kind of thing. They got more- Yeah, Microsoft ... firepower.

Yeah, yeah. They got more firepower. I think they, they gonna be the strongest. But I think eventually it's, it's depending on the ecosystem, like how they use their, their models to actually, uh, to apply to the... to, to affect the daily life of u- regular users, right? So, so for us, we, we also interested in, uh, on... because we are doing the, the trading platforms, uh, we also often look at like, uh, AI tools to help traders or, or investors to do better investment, and there's many, uh, applications to that as well.

Uh, I'm not sure if you read the story. Actually, DeepSeek, the founder, they initially inve- i- invented the, the model just for, for help them to do stock tradings, basically. So they made lots of money through stock tradings, and then they, they decided to, to make this model publicly available with open source because they see this... there, uh, there's lots of applications you can use with the open source, make it more, more wildly, uh, adapted. Uh, it's, it's help, uh, more people rather than just keeping them closed. Yeah.

Yeah, I think the acquisition of Manus by Meta was really interesting. So I've been using Manus almost since day one. Since like its first day that it was available in the States, I've, I've been using it. And watching how quickly that team has deployed like level two and level three functionality has been- Yeah ... in my mind, i- incredible. I mean, personally, I use it...

So for, let's just say for the production of this podcast- Yeah ... 90% of the post-production that happens with this podcast is a result of Manus. So I've created a series of prompts. I take the transcript, I take a few screenshots, I take a few headshots, I pop it into Manus, and then I have, uh, a set of prompts that I work through. And essentially everything that I then need, everything from podcast, YouTube, show notes page, uh, what I'm sharing on social, the graphics that come out, and it gives me all these different options and, um, it's all incredibly high quality.

And they actually added a feature before... This was, to me, and, and this is why I think these AI agents... So for guys, for, for those of you listening at home who may not know the difference, M- Manus is not necessarily working off its own model per se. It does have its own model, but what it does that is so particular and where, in my mind, they've stepped ahead and I think shown the everyday user market something they, they haven't seen in the other models, is this ability to create on-the-fly agents that then go out and execute off other models. So it's pulling in Nana Banana Pro 2 graphics- Mm-hmm ... and then it's pulling in, you know, uh, maybe it's pulling in a, a video from Sora, and it's pulling in, you know, the... it's using these different resources, and then it also has the ability to go out and hit the web, which it could do that before OpenAI could.

So Manus- Mm-hmm ... because it used different models, actually had the ability to go out and do deep research and deep analysis of websites inside a flow before OpenAI could do that. And it's this idea of AI agents, I think, which is really gonna be the next level, and we'll look back on these m- you know, single chat flow, you know, the kinda early days. We'll look back and laugh at how remedial, you know, that stuff was, uh, when we see these agents and, you know, how quickly voice is coming and visual recognition and all this kind of stuff. It's, it's, it's really wild. Uh, and- Yeah.

But the, what, what Manus, what the acquisition of Manus showed me, and I was, I was, I wish it wasn't Meta that bought them 'cause I think Meta's AI is kind of wack compared to the other ones personally. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, but was how important this idea of multi-agent functionality is to high production. Like if you really wanna get high output, you need to be able to run multiple agents.

They need to be able to talk to each other, and they need to know how to layer. And the, I honestly, I, I don't think there's a better retail user product on the market than Manus when it comes to that. And, um, that was a really a- interesting ac- acquisition, particularly born out of China, moved to the US, or at least, you know, had a, had a US headquarters and now being bought by a US company. Uh, it just shows how global this stuff is and how, you know... I, I often, you know, it's funny, like I, I, I love watching politics because it's like watching like Real Housewives of, you know, Washington DC kinda 'cause it's all just so, it's all performance art, you know?

Yeah. And like there's, you see these problems, um, you know, ah, the Chinese are doing this, the, the, the US is doing this, and everyone's... And you see all these. And underneath, it's just all the business people and regular people are just working with each other, do- doing, getting business done. Yes.

Like it's just funny how, you know, you can, you can get caught up in headlines, but I, you know, I always tell my buddies in particular, and I'm blessed to have this show and be able to talk to people like yourself, I'm like, "The people that are actually getting shit done, like it... I don't know. They don't even think twice about this crap." You're like, "We doing business or not?" You know what I mean?

Yeah. Obviously, there's always a little bit of something you gotta work through, but- Yep. Yep ... um, I wanna move over to blockchain and particularly, um, uh, what you're doing there because- Obviously, if you were in early on BTC, I have made the mistake twice, as you did, of buying, feeling amazing about myself when it go up, selling, and then watching it go down a little, and then go way up again. I've played that game multiple times now, and I'm now just in a, "I'm just gonna hold this shit until, you know, for a decade or so before I sell any of it." Uh, big believer, big believer in the tech.

Uh, what we've seen maybe over the last three to four years in particular is this of altcoins and meme coins and all this kind of stuff. And, you know, there was, for a while, there were all these core networks that still exist, Solana, et cetera. But it feels like Bitcoin has really won in term- at least for now, as like the gold standard cryptocurrency. Like today, if you walk into, you walk into your, your local bar or, you know, your, your, your card game or your golf, your, you know, your golf match or whatever, and you say, "Hey, I, I bought some Bitcoin today," people are like, "Oh, okay." You know, three years ago, people would laugh at you and say you're, you know, playing with video game money or whatever.

Um, what do you... Like when you're, you know, being a, having a trading platform, seeing all this stuff, having people being able to trade Bitcoin as much as, you know, Wolf Coin 133 or whatever, right? Um, what has been maybe some of your high-level takeaways of this maturation, and where do you see the market continuing to mature as we go? Yeah, I think, uh, like, like you mentioned, I, I bought it early. I sold it early too.

But I, I think, uh, there's a reason why I wasn't really a true believer at the time, uh, because, uh, there is no institutional adoption at the time. It was too early, right? So the people didn't real- like there, there, there's value, definitely there's values in, in Bitcoin and, but at the, at the time, there's not many people actually understand it or, or, or can realize or, or, or can agree on the value of Bitcoin. So, uh, so at that time, there was r- higher risk than, than now, right? Like if you, like I'm not sure if you, you do lots of investment, you always hear about like a, a reward over risk.

There's a ratio, right? So, so the higher the reward, uh, with higher risk. But right now, Bitcoin might already has a higher price, uh, that you w- you won't get that kind of tremendous growth if you bought like $300. But right now, the risk is way lower. Uh, the reason why is because the, uh, I think, um, y- over the, over the years, like especially, uh, 2003, 2000, uh, uh, 2023, 2024, uh, because the, uh, institutional adoption, because the spot ET- ETFs, the Wall Street adoption of big, though the big institutions coming in and realize there's value.

Uh, also Cathie Wood, uh, from ARK and, and Tesla, um, Elon, and they, they all bought Bitcoin, right? So this is, uh, when there is a common recognition on the value of Bitcoin and, and it obviously they, they bring up the price, but I think it, it at the same time is, has reduced the risk tremendously. So the volatility on Bitcoin price has been, has been down even like, uh, over the last year or two, people was talking about this four-year cycles, right? So with supposedly, uh, people ar- ar- arguing if there is still another four-year cyc- cycle for Bitcoin, uh, and right now, even there if there is still bit- four-year cycles and, and the volatility will be way, way less, right? Because all this institutional money as spot ETFs, uh, trad- traditional finance, uh, institutions has access the Bitcoin as a storage of value, right?

So because Bitcoin is, is, is treated as digital gold because it's scarcity, it, it has limited quantity of 21 million, and, um, even a big chunk of that has, belongs to S- Satoshi, but Satoshi's Bitcoin is, is not, no longer moving, so it's, it's not in the supply. So the supply is limited, and, uh, there is definitely a application of Bitcoin, uh, on payment or on, on the other things we can use as, as Bitcoin as a, as a blockchain even. Uh, I think it, it definitely there is a value for Bit- for, for Bitcoin itself. A- a- and on the other side, uh, I think, um, uh, is the, uh, uh, uh, Ethereum is, is not need to be mentioned is that Ethereum has a different, uh, utility, I would say. Like, uh, uh, I think Tom Lee has been, uh, the biggest, uh, uh, uh, like a, a bullish, uh, like a bullish follower for, for Ethereum because he's seeing Ethereum as, as one of the only layer one blockchain that has never been done since the, the, uh, since it gone live.

And, and it's one of the, the basics for Wall Street to access blockchain. But basically, I think in the near future, we, we're gonna see, um, uh, real world assets like, uh, bonds, uh, and, and stocks. They, they all gonna be, uh, uh, going on chain, and it's gonna be on, on Ethereum. It's gonna be one of the m- most viable, uh, chain. They, they gonna, uh, they gonna adapt.

So I, I think, uh, the 2024 when the spot ETF for Bitcoin came out, that's adopt-- uh, the Wall Street adoption for Bitcoin. And 2025 this year, uh, because of Tom Lee and, and Bitmain, uh, is one of the biggest, uh, uh- Uh, ETH, uh, holders for, for, I, uh, this is the company right now. So he's holding, I think, over almost 5% of the, the float of, uh, Ethereum. And I think he is one... Actually, that's, that's actually a, a bookmark for, uh, Ethereum, uh, getting, uh, a Wall Street adoption, like the, the institutional money actually supporting that.

And also on top of that, uh, uh, this cycle, uh, the bullish cycle is, is way different than the last one, uh, in 2017 because, uh, like you mentioned, there's, there are millions of meme coins, altcoins out there and, and I would say most of them, it has no value. And that's also the reason why the, even the major coins, Solana and Ethereum, is they're not going up as much, uh, on a percentage-wise, uh, as last cycle because, uh, like there's so many, uh, coins to select, especially for the retails. They follow, like for KOLs, they... KOLs are often like very excited and pushing for, for, for a couple meme coins and then, then eventually this came down and crashed and they g- and, and, and it has no value, and people just lose money on that. It's distracted all this, uh, potential money can invest in, in, in the major coins, the Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana, where, where do have values.

So that's why I think this bull market is more like institutional driven rather than, uh, like we have like a retail, uh, uh, really, uh, making lots of money on, on the last cycle. And also, and there's another, uh, side note is that during last cycle, the, the Chinese market, uh, the Chinese retail can, can still, can easily access to, to cryptos. But right now because the Chinese, uh, government has very strict rules, uh, on trading cryptos in the mainland China, it's not easily accessible to any trading platforms. So that's potentially, uh, has reduced the money flowing to the market as well. So but it could be a potential opportunity maybe, I think in one day there, there is gonna be a open policy and for the Chinese can get access to, to crypto trading, and that will, will be like potentially boost the market a little bit more higher, I think so.

Yeah. That's a, that's a really good insight. And so I have a couple- Yeah ... things I'd like to clear up for the audience. And- Yeah ... 'cause, 'cause you, you talked a little bit about this, and I, and we'll... Let's just stick with Bitcoin and Ethereum for now for this part of the conversation, right?

We have- Yeah ... Bitcoin, which I think it's maybe more naive detractors, you know, "It's not worth. It doesn't do anything." It, you know, it's, it's really that idea of a store of value, right? There's, it's not...

No one's running applications on the Bitcoin network to a certain, you know, for the most part. Like for the... It's, it's basically just, "I buy this 'cause it has value, and I also have some gold, and I also have some mutual funds, and I'm diversifying and whatever." Okay. And then you have networks like Ethereum, which have incredible utility, right?

Uh- Mm-hmm. Yeah ... my, my industry that I grew up in was the insurance industry here in the States, and there has been talk for a long time, and while, uh, the insurance industry in the States seemingly believes it's 20 years, uh, in the past technology-wise from anything that's actually happening today, uh, they tend to just be massive laggards. Um, the conversation around, you know, uh, insurance policies are an incredible use case for, you know, using blockchain technology, you know, uh, a coin or otherwise. Mm-hmm. Yep.

And the conversations around that have been if the industry were to start to make a move, Ethereum would be the network in which the, you know, uh, uh, an insurance policy blockchain would be built on. Okay. So- Mm-hmm ... if I'm, if I'm sitting here and I'm just a retail investor, I like to pl- I got 5, 10% of my portfolio I like to play around with, I like to put it in some different things, um, how do I, how do people start to gauge like w- a Bitcoin investment- Bitcoin investment ... which as you said, and I, and I've seen it o- as well as just a retail investor, uh, um, volatility is down, and even though you saw a, a move recently, you know, if you pull out a little bit, you can just see the dips and the highs are not as big, and you're kind of seeing a natural kind of up and down progression, um, with, with up and to the right being the, the overall course. Where Ethereum seemingly is going up but has been much flatter. It's kind of been around that 2,100 to 4,000 mark for a long time.

And as you said, if I'm, if I'm just a YOLO Reddit investor who looks for the next hype, hype cycle on some Reddit board, you know, deep down in Reddit, and I put a bunch of money in whatever coin, that could be going to an Ethereum. It could be going to one of these other, uh, chains. So should I be, should I be thinking more, uh, Ethereum, Solana, et cetera, like, uh, like one of these, these that haven't moved in a long time but have a tremendous amount of utility- Sure ... have thousands, if not in some case hundreds of thousands or even millions of applications being built on them, like seemingly are going to be around for a long time because of the tech? Or should I be thinking more, "Hey, let me just put my money in Bitcoin and ride the wave?" Or do I YOLO and, and chase the, chase the Reddit boards?

Like how do I start to think through where I should play? 'Cause I have so many friends, so many, who when you get a couple, uh, whiskeys in them will tell you about all the ridiculous coins that they put money in that they felt amazing about for about 20 minutes, and then all of a sudden their account was at zero when it, you know, when everyone crashed out. So how, how do you start to think through this as a, we'll call it a unsophisticated crypto retail investor?Yeah, I think, um, if you are a beginner, um, I think the, um, it's always to start to get... For example, if you, you, you new to the, to, to the crypto trading, I think you always good to start with the spot trading. And so if you know your, uh, your trading platforms, for example, example, Binance, OKX, or even as LevelX, and then you can, you can get in there and you can, you can, you can open your account and deposit your, your, your, your USDT or your coins into spot trading to start with. Just get familiar with the features and get familiar spot trading, uh, Bitcoin, Ethereum, the major ones, not the, the smaller ones, right?

So, so you just go on current market cap. It's, it's one of the, the website you use. You just go, go down to the list. Uh, on the top, I would say top, uh, five, uh, aside like top five is like first one is Bitcoin, second Ethereum, uh, after that is Binance, Solana, XRP. I think until that point, XRP is the, I think is the most, uh, riskiest ones you, you wanna invest in, right?

So, so, so you just, just start there and, and then maybe start slowly as well. And then one strategy you can use is called the dollar cost average. You can do DCA and, and over the times you can build, for example, let's say today is 92K for Bitcoin and you buy 10%, uh, on your portfolio, and tomorrow it, it came down or, or, or next week, the same day, next Monday it came down and then you buy another 10%. Doesn't matter the, the price and, and you just in, in 10 batches, right? Right now, like you can just slowly, slowly go down, right?

Maybe in, in 10 weeks it came down to 80K and you started at 90K, so your average is like 85, right? So then when they start to go back up, maybe in the, the next month or so, and, and you go... You can always make money, right? So and you don't have to worry about liquidation and everything, and that's one strategy for the beginners. They just get used to how the market moves and they get a, get a sense how it's trading, right?

Uh, then once you start making some money and, um, you can use your profit. You can take some of the profit out and sell them, uh, you can start looking to some of these more aggressive ones, right? So you can, uh, if you started with Bitcoin, you can move into Ethereum or, or even Solana or, or XRP, and you can do the same, same, uh, same strategy, right? So you can, you can just buy spot and, and, and start making like a, making your, like a regular buys and eventually you can make some profit. Just make, make sure the money you put aside is like the, the investment money, not the money you need to, to pay the everyday cost, right?

So, so once you have made some successful trade and, and you can go to the next level, and you can start looking at, uh, perpetual trading. Uh, what's the perpetual is, is the futures contract. Basically, you can have leverage, but you, you gotta do leverage very smart because, uh, I think, um, um, in the long run, people lose money, uh, because they, they over-leveraged. A- and, and a leverage, in, in certain sense, I would say my, my, uh, business school professor always tells me, "Leverage, uh, will... If you use the right way, it- it's the only way to make you like, um, reach or, uh, make you to the next class," right?

Yeah. So, so like even retail, the same. Like if you're buying a house using mortgage, that's a leverage. You start a company and you raise money, that's a leverage. And, and trading stocks using margin, that's a leverage.

So trading crypto and, and using perpetual contracts, that's a leverage as well. So you, you understand the leverage and then you, uh, you use it, uh, only partially of your, the capital you have. Like it-- I think the best ca- best case is you made money trading spot and use that profit and you do, uh, leverage trading when the market is actually, is very clear, not in, in, not when the market is, is in a range bounding. For right now, I think the market is still in range bounding. It's not a great, uh, time to use leverage to trade, but it...

We can still, uh, building, uh, the spot, uh, at this moment, just doing DCAs. Uh, I do see in the first half of the year, we might see some downside. Uh, personally, I'm waiting for Bitcoin, uh, because I, I sold my spots and I'm waiting to buy back my spot maybe under 80K, even though I think there's currently there's a bounce. Uh, I think there's still s- little bit more downside and, and I wait until the, the water is clear and the trend is clear. Uh, I can...

I will buy some spot and then, uh, I will do some leverage very low, like three to 5X then, and that's normally my play. Yeah. Basically, we need to wait till, uh, CNN and Fox News are saying that Bitcoin's dead and it's going to zero, and the minute they say that, that's when we probably should start. That's- Yeah. That's when you start Yeah, and- That's when you start buying.

Or, or you see the headline news is that there's like, uh, over the last 24 hours, there's like 100 million, uh, mo- 100 billion, uh, like the market value lost in the crypto market and things like that. Yeah.Yeah. Yeah, those type of- Yeah ... I basically, um, 'cause I'm not smart enough, nor do I have the, uh, self-discipline to trade. I've tried, and I just...

Like, my ADD goes off the rails, and I, I just want more, you know, I want action. I just set up, um... I just invest, I just DCA every week. I literally have it just set up- Yeah ... to auto, auto buy, you know, a certain amount every week, and I don't even think about it. And that's when, like, I see, oh, it was at, you know, 127, and now it's at 92, and I'm like, meh.

You know, I'm not... Who cares? I'm not, I'm not investing today for, you know, a, a, a quick lift, you know, for, for the type of investor I am for Bitcoin in particular. It's just, I think there will come a day where it could be five years from now, it could be a decade f- from now, 300, 200, 500,000 if you're just DCA-ing or if you're doing it in chunks, you know, your big... There's gonna be a time in the future when there, when you're very happy that you just, you didn't try to time it, you didn't try to get out at certain times.

Uh- Exactly. Yeah ... I think, I think if you're very smart and you know what you're doing, I think there's incredible amount of money to be made trading. I think for a lot of the people listening, especially if you're a business owner and you don't have the time, right? This is where you get caught, I think, in, in, uh, futures trading, at least my friends who've really lost decent chunks, has been they don't have the time to invest.

They think it's like this side hustle where I can show up for 20 minutes and open up my app and do some... And y- you, you just can't be successful long term that way. It's, it's a... There's too much- Yeah. Yeah ... it's a job.

Like, trading is a job. This is what people do- Yeah, definitely ... all day long. Yeah. Yeah. It's harder than a daily job.

Yeah. Yeah. And you, you have to compete against people, like for example, the, the, the financial firms or, or, or professional traders, they have invested maybe 10 millions in developing a software trading against you, and how do you think you can successful beating them, right? So you can only beat them with luck or you beat them with time. Like, you can, you can use, you can op- like broaden your timeframe and, and then, then you slowly put your money in, and you get a average your, your, your, your cost down and then, then play the long game.

So, so- Yeah ... because the professional traders, they, they're looking for the short run, right? Or, uh, you wait until maybe the AI tools came out, and they can help you to trade. And, and, and we... Like, as, as a trading platform, we, we actually looking into those features as well. We're in the middle of developing those.

So, so we hope this can help the traders improve their trading, uh, success rate. Yeah. So with your platform, right? Um, I can buy and hold, right? It's not, is it only trading or I can just go in...

Like, let's say today I'm listening to this. You're like, "You know, I like this guy. I've been wanting to b- buy some Bitcoin. I've been wanting to get in. I've been saying I'm gonna do it for a while."

I can just go download the app, you know, put my information in, I can buy and hold. But then if I do wanna start playing around and maybe, like you said, take, take some profits here and there and, and actually make, put some bets in, do a little futures trading on the side, I wanna learn that game, I can... Your platform will allow me to do that as well. So I kind of have the full- Definitely ... spectrum of opportunities to play in the game. Definitely.

Definitely. We have, uh, well, we have, uh, spot trading, we have futures trading. You can even do, uh, using the, uh, spot as a collateral to do some kind of leverage to trade as well. And, and also we have, uh, definitely like across all this, uh, uh, sales marketing, we have this welcome bonus and everything. Like, you can maybe just come sometime.

We have promotions going on. You can come and, and deposit some money, get some, uh, trading credits, and you can trade with the trading credits. It's not costing your own money, and, and it's, it's a good way to get the... used to some of the trading features as well. Yeah. So I wa- I wanna finish with, like, you've had this dynamic entrepreneur journey, not just in China, across the world.

You've been in multiple different places, interacted with a ton of different people. You're in, sitting in Dubai today while we're talking, which just makes this so incredible to begin with. Um, doesn't have to be crypto, can be whatever you want. When you... Can you kinda sit in your spot and you, and you, you look out over the ecosystem, maybe you put your, your VC hat back on for a second.

Like, what's, what's the one tech sector, et cetera, where you're like, maybe, maybe the market doesn't understand how much further this has to go, right? Like, like we keep hearing like AI's a bubble, it's gonna pop, and you know, it's gonna become... Or, you know, crypto, or is it, you know, energy? Is it nuclear? Is it, you know, space tech?

Like, if you were sitting there today and were, you know, something that really got you excited, what, what's that thing that you're like, "Man, this is gonna move. Like I, I m- don't know maybe know when, maybe not sure which company, but this sector's got legs, and it's gonna hit here in the next, next few, next few years"? Well, I think AI is already, everybody's already talking about. Um, uh, I think AI agents like Manus, I think definitely there's, there's more. I, I think AI, uh, agent is like the application on top of AI models.

Uh, there's gonna be, uh, lots of use for, for AI agents as well. Uh, but I think one thing I'm currently looking at, I think I, I still have lots of hope in Ethereum because like we talk about, um, well, I, I think Tom Lee sometimes has overstated some, some points, but I, I, I do agree with him, uh, on certain degrees because Ethereum is the, uh, utility-wise, like is the gateway for the whole Wall Street or, or traditional finance to access blockchain. And, and, and that's something gonna be really huge. Um, like you mentioned, the insurance, uh, even real estates, right? So in Dubai- They already put, uh, uh, some of the, the, the buildings real estates, uh, got tokenized, uh, put it on a, a blockchain, and people can buy shares of it, uh, or buy the coins, so basically owning, owning a part- partial share, like, ownership of that building.

Uh, I think also there's, there's m- many, many applications you can use. Um, uh, also Polymarket, right? So Polymarket you can, you can do all this betting a- and forecasting on blockchain. A- a- and I think there's, there's so many things you can do, even- Polymarket's on Ethereum, built off Ethereum ... Uh, I, I think they definitely utilize the Ethereum- Yeah ... uh, blockchain network, so- I think you're right.

I just wasn't- Yeah ... I wasn't 100% sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we can double-check. Well, I, I, I love that.

I mean, to be honest with you, Ethereum had definitely fallen off my radar a little bit, uh, mostly just because I don't think about crypto every day. But, um, I think you're right. I mean, Bitcoin is essentially paving the path, I think, culturally for people to accept, doing air quotes for those that are listening, kinda crypto in general. It's kinda that beachhead. Crypto's kinda establishing the beachhead.

But I, I could... I, you know, I'm listening to you, and I, and I can't find a hole in, in the idea that the next wave is going to be these actual utilitarian chains that where people are building. I mean... And, and guys, just so you know, like, it's not like there's a few applications on Ethereum. Like, we're talking some major, major applications, major platforms.

I mean, entire, entire business models, companies, you know, regulatory, reg- I know regulated industries that are starting to, to either, that are currently using or dipping their toes in. And I think once you start to see, like you said, finance, insurance, these highly regulated industries start to grab onto these, I think that's where the, the dominoes really start to fall, because once, once the regulated industries are in, there's not really an excuse for anyone else to, to not start to, to invest and go down the rabbit hole. H- Harvey, man, I could talk to you about this stuff all day. I know it is late- Yeah ... where you are. I appreciate the heck out of you, guys.

It's, it's probably close to 1:00 AM now, uh, in Dubai where Harvey is, so appreciate you taking this time. It's been a wonderful conversation. Um, where could people learn more about, um, your company? And then if they wanna follow along with you personally, do you create, do you, um, share thoughts anywhere? Is there any platform that you'd like to push people to?

Yeah. Actually, we have our, our official website. It's, uh, www.levex, L-E-V-E-X, .com. And also, uh, I'm on, uh, Twitter as well. My account is, uh, @HarveyLevex, and our official Twitter handle is @Levex.

It's just, uh, that's our f- our official account. So if you wanna learn more information about us, just hop onto our, uh, one of the platforms and look for us. And also, uh, I will be on Spaces every Tuesday. There is a content economic spaces. I will talk there, uh, talking about the market every Tuesday.

Uh, I think it's 10, uh, 10:00 AM Eastern Time I'll be there. So if you guys wanna listen, you can always find me there as well. And also thank you, Ryan, for, for inviting me and having this interview today, and, and really love to talk to you. Maybe we can set up another show later on for AI or the other stuff we, we would love to talk about. Yeah.

I would love that. I'd love that. Yeah. I, I, um- Yeah ... uh, we spent a lot of time on, we'll call 'em higher level psychology leadership type topics the last year. Um, coming into 2026, uh, we're gonna focus more on finance, on technology, on, you know, AI, et cetera, and, and these...

I think it, it's a tough game, you know, when you're in a leadership position managing kind of the humans, right? Mm-hmm. You got the humans, which are really hard, and then you have- Yes ... then you have the actual business that you're trying to build- Mm ... and the technology related to it. And, um, you know, we're trying to capture the full spectrum here and, and give people a place to have these conversations and, and learn. So I just appreciate you.

I know it's late. Uh- That's okay. Yeah ... this has been a wonderful conversation. Yeah. And, uh, look, man, open invitation.

We will definitely have you back. Anything comes up, you, you drop that, uh, some of the AI features you're talking about into, into Levex, come right, come right back on, man. I'd love to have that conversation. Okay. Thank you so much.

Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Ryan. Yeah.

Yeah. It's, it's very nice. Yes, talking. Yeah.